Black Knight Invite

[nhs67]

11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Injury default or MFF?

 

[Pish]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

125 is not weak, it’s deep with everyone beating up on each other.   Berginc beat Liam Cronin and Brandon Kaylor last year.  If Davis beat him 5-1 I’d give him a shot to AA.

 

 

There’s a bunch of solid guys. There’s no Spencer or Suriano in the field..

 

I agree if Davis continues to develop he has just as good as shot as anyone to make podium  

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Pish

[lu_alum]

 

Still counts as a D1 loss on his record.


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[1032004]

22 minutes ago, Pish said:

There’s a bunch of solid guys. There’s no Spencer or Suriano in the field..

 

I agree if Davis continues to develop he has just as good as shot as anyone to make podium  

 

There are 4 guys who have beaten the guy who beat Spencer Lee since last season.

If there’s a “weak” weight, it’s probably 133

[nhs67]

20 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Still counts as a D1 loss on his record.


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I thought the stipulation was that for it to count there had to be a match after it?

[Wrestleknownothing]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

At least he isn't a complete back of shit like Baylor Fernandez.

Just watched his consi loss. I think Matt Lee would agree with you.

[1032004]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

At least he isn't a complete back of shit like Baylor Fernandez.

What did Fernandes do?

[1032004]

5 hours ago, Le duke said:

RS FR Barr just beat top-10 Nolan.


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Barr + God/Jesus did it

 

 

[nhs67]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

What did Fernandes do?

The guy is the dirtiest wrestler we have seen in a very long time.  He intentionally has tried, and succeeded, to hurt his opponents deliberately.  Scratching, eye poking, oil checking, pinching, can openers, haymakers... it is a bad look on UNC wrestling, for me.

He makes Desanto's attitude look mellow and Berger's deliberate headbutt on Zain seem mild.

[1032004]

12 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

The guy is the dirtiest wrestler we have seen in a very long time.  He intentionally has tried, and succeeded, to hurt his opponents deliberately.  Scratching, eye poking, oil checking, pinching, can openers, haymakers... it is a bad look on UNC wrestling, for me.

He makes Desanto's attitude look mellow and Berger's deliberate headbutt on Zain seem mild.

Did he injure anyone today?

[Threadkilla]

43 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

There are 4 guys who have beaten the guy who beat Spencer Lee since last season.

If there’s a “weak” weight, it’s probably 133

Ramos has lost to four different people?    I know of Blaze and Comacho.  Who else? 

[1032004]

3 minutes ago, Threadkilla said:

Ramos has lost to four different people?    I know of Blaze and Comacho.  Who else? 

“Since last season.”  That was only guys in the current field, so not counting Blaze

[Le duke]

Did he injure anyone today?

He gave some extra effort to Matt Lee’s face/throat well after the whistle, and he torqued Lee’s knee hard enough to make him MFF out of the 5th place match. The latter might have been incidental but l’m not inclined to give Fernandes the benefit of the doubt these days.


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[Wrestleknownothing]

30 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Did he injure anyone today?

Matt Lee

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

He gave some extra effort to Matt Lee’s face/throat well after the whistle, and he torqued Lee’s knee hard enough to make him MFF out of the 5th place match. The latter might have been incidental but l’m not inclined to give Fernandez the benefit of the doubt these days.


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Not incidental. He gave the final, big torque well after the whistle.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Did he injure anyone today?

He tries in every match.

[Pish]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I thought the stipulation was that for it to count there had to be a match after it?

If in a tournament and you get inured during match and can’t continue (Injury default) and then MFF next match, the MFF don’t count against you 

Let’s say you wrestle and finish 3 matches but then MFF, the MFF counts as a loss

 

 

 

[Husker_Du]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

There are 4 guys who have beaten the guy who beat Spencer Lee since last season.

If there’s a “weak” weight, it’s probably 133

125 is atrocious. 133 has vito and daton. it drops off after about 6 guys. but 125 is a historically bad weight. 

[1032004]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

125 is atrocious. 133 has vito and daton. it drops off after about 6 guys. but 125 is a historically bad weight. 

133 is weaker than 125 no question, love ya but saying 125 is “historically bad” is laughable IMO.

Heck even among those 6 guys at 133, multiple of them have lost to guys in the 125 field. Nagao lost to Brayden Palmer last year who Intermat doesn’t even have ranked at 125.   Orine lost to Matt Ramos at NCAA’s in 2022.   I know Latona has some weird regular season losses but in the 2022 postseason he lost to Camacho and Barnett.

And speaking of Barnett, he’s a 2x AA that just got majored by Terukina and failed to place last year.  You’ve also got former 3rd and 5th place finisher McKee, and former 4th place finisher DeAugustino who also failed to place last year.   Meanwhile you’ve got returning AA Ventresca with 4 losses already.

Yeah, there’s not a clear top 1 or 2 guys, but there are like 30 different guys that can AA.  And of course we thought there was a “clear #1” last year and look what happened… 

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

133 is weaker than 125 no question, love ya but saying 125 is “historically bad” is laughable IMO.

Heck even among those 6 guys at 133, multiple of them have lost to guys in the 125 field. Nagao lost to Brayden Palmer last year who Intermat doesn’t even have ranked at 125.   Orine lost to Matt Ramos at NCAA’s in 2022.   I know Latona has some weird regular season losses but in the 2022 postseason he lost to Camacho and Barnett.

And speaking of Barnett, he’s a 2x AA that just got majored by Terukina and failed to place last year.  You’ve also got former 3rd and 5th place finisher McKee, and former 4th place finisher DeAugustino who also failed to place last year.   Meanwhile you’ve got returning AA Ventresca with 4 losses already.

Yeah, there’s not a clear top 1 or 2 guys, but there are like 30 different guys that can AA.  And of course we thought there was a “clear #1” last year and look what happened… 

The problem with 125 is that if you take the Top 15-20, who I think we all agree have a rather high(~25%+) percentage chance to AA at 125 this year, and put them up at 133 then their window for AA gets a lot smaller.

Yes Palmer beat Nagao, but he didn't beat him when it mattered.  Yes Ramos beat Orine but, while the records are similar, the Orine of last year took a metaphorical leap from the year before (3 seed VS 15 seed).

You take all these potential AA guys and bump them up to 133 and I have very little confidence any of them pull AA honors.  If you give them this last offseason to 'bulk' in to 133 and I still wouldn't bet on any pulling AA honors off.  Weight classes exist for a reason and they matter.

[nhs67]

On the flip side of all that... if Fix or Arujau announce they are heading down to 125lbs tomorrow, they are immediately the favorite.

133 is much deeper than 125 and it isn't even close.

Edit: Deeper where it matters... which is peak potential AA.

Edited November 20, 2023 by nhs67

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I thought the stipulation was that for it to count there had to be a match after it?

I thought the first one counted and the ones after didn't? This stops guys from forfeiting out of a potential loss.

• "The first medical forfeit of a tournament will count as a loss on the wrestler's record. An exception will be if the medical forfeit occurs immediately after an injury default in a tournament."

https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/6/8/media-center-3-point-takedown-approved-in-wrestling.aspx

Edited November 20, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[1032004]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

The problem with 125 is that if you take the Top 15-20, who I think we all agree have a rather high(~25%+) percentage chance to AA at 125 this year, and put them up at 133 then their window for AA gets a lot smaller.

Yes Palmer beat Nagao, but he didn't beat him when it mattered.  Yes Ramos beat Orine but, while the records are similar, the Orine of last year took a metaphorical leap from the year before (3 seed VS 15 seed).

You take all these potential AA guys and bump them up to 133 and I have very little confidence any of them pull AA honors.  If you give them this last offseason to 'bulk' in to 133 and I still wouldn't bet on any pulling AA honors off.  Weight classes exist for a reason and they matter.

I agree that weight classes matter. I am not suggesting that those guys would be in the top six or so at 133 right now, but I think multiple guys at 125 having wins against some of the top guys at 133 when they were at the same weight is an example of why 125 is not weak.

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

On the flip side of all that... if Fix or Arujau announce they are heading down to 125lbs tomorrow, they are immediately the favorite.

133 is much deeper than 125 and it isn't even close.

Edit: Deeper where it matters... which is peak potential AA.

That’s not what deep means though…

I think people will regret these “125 is weak” comments looking back in a few years.  There are multiple guys looking to become 3x AA’s this year.   Then you’ve got Ramos, Noto etc that still have 2 tournaments left, Figueroa 3.  Speaking of Figueroa, many thought he should’ve started last year and Courtney ended up finishing 3rd (with prior 2nd and 6th place finishes).   Definitely not weak IMO

[nhs67]

46 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I agree that weight classes matter. I am not suggesting that those guys would be in the top six or so at 133 right now, but I think multiple guys at 125 having wins against some of the top guys at 133 when they were at the same weight is an example of why 125 is not weak.

That’s not what deep means though…

I think people will regret these “125 is weak” comments looking back in a few years.  There are multiple guys looking to become 3x AA’s this year.   Then you’ve got Ramos, Noto etc that still have 2 tournaments left, Figueroa 3.  Speaking of Figueroa, many thought he should’ve started last year and Courtney ended up finishing 3rd (with prior 2nd and 6th place finishes).   Definitely not weak IMO

If you want to call what the definition of what deep 'should' be where do we cross the invisible line?  Top 8?  Top 16?  Top 33?  Top 100?

I am cutting the line at Top 8.  In that I believe were the Top 8 of 133 face off against the Top 8 from 125 at 133lbs right now in some sort of dual setting, I am taking the Top 8 right now at 133lbs.

Using Wrestlestat for argument's sake:
1 - Ramos, Purdue VS Arujau, Cornell
2 - Comacho, NC State VS Fix, Oklahoma State
3 - Noto, Lock Haven VS Crookham, Lehigh
4 - Barnett, Wisconsin VS Nagao, Penn State
5 - Figueroa, Arizona State VS Orine, NC State
6 - McKee, Minnesota VS Latona, Virginia Tech
7 - Peterson, Rutgers VS Colaiocco, Pennsylvania
8 - Palmer, Chattanooga VS Teske, Iowa

#5 might be a match.  Orine kind of has a style that might be rather stiff for a smaller Figs.

#8 is a match.

Other than that I don't think there are even any toss-ups.

To take it further, let's use #10, 15, 20, 25, and 30.
10 - Ayala, Iowa VS Wisenhunt, Oregon State
15 - Poulin, Northern Colorado VS Zaccone, Campbell
20 - Volk, Wyoming VS Bailey, Little Rock
25 - Moore, North Carolina VS Seltzer, Missouri
30 - Kaylor, Oregon State VS Rooks, Indiana

I think when you get to these weights and you start seeing that weight classes matter for a reason and that 133, while it doesn't have the names, does have the depth.  The only one I am calling a toss-up would be Ayala and Wisenhunt.  On the fence a bit, though.  Ayala has felt 133lbs, so I don't think the weight would be too much of a concern.

 

[1032004]

14 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

If you want to call what the definition of what deep 'should' be where do we cross the invisible line?  Top 8?  Top 16?  Top 33?  Top 100?

I am cutting the line at Top 8.  In that I believe were the Top 8 of 133 face off against the Top 8 from 125 at 133lbs right now in some sort of dual setting, I am taking the Top 8 right now at 133lbs.

Using Wrestlestat for argument's sake:
1 - Ramos, Purdue VS Arujau, Cornell
2 - Comacho, NC State VS Fix, Oklahoma State
3 - Noto, Lock Haven VS Crookham, Lehigh
4 - Barnett, Wisconsin VS Nagao, Penn State
5 - Figueroa, Arizona State VS Orine, NC State
6 - McKee, Minnesota VS Latona, Virginia Tech
7 - Peterson, Rutgers VS Colaiocco, Pennsylvania
8 - Palmer, Chattanooga VS Teske, Iowa

#5 might be a match.  Orine kind of has a style that might be rather stiff for a smaller Figs.

#8 is a match.

Other than that I don't think there are even any toss-ups.

To take it further, let's use #10, 15, 20, 25, and 30.
10 - Ayala, Iowa VS Wisenhunt, Oregon State
15 - Poulin, Northern Colorado VS Zaccone, Campbell
20 - Volk, Wyoming VS Bailey, Little Rock
25 - Moore, North Carolina VS Seltzer, Missouri
30 - Kaylor, Oregon State VS Rooks, Indiana

I think when you get to these weights and you start seeing that weight classes matter for a reason and that 133, while it doesn't have the names, does have the depth.  The only one I am calling a toss-up would be Ayala and Wisenhunt.  On the fence a bit, though.  Ayala has felt 133lbs, so I don't think the weight would be too much of a concern.

 

If we’re assuming these guys weigh the same which obviously they don’t, I’d take 133 in 1-4 and 125 in every match after that, with 125 probably getting a fair amount of bonus in the bottom half.  Kaylor is #30 and is a previous AA, just an example of the depth