3 point takedowns but 2 point reversals

[1032004]

19 minutes ago, jross said:

My goddaughter took second place at state last year after losing to the same girl for the third time by a single point.  She said that the top girl was stalling because she just sat on an ankle while on top.  Last night, we talked about why you let her hook the ankle to begin with.  Then we drilled two ways to get your ankle free...  Thanks for the right mindset, Pat!

Yes, of course bottom should be trying to get out.  But not being able to get out doesn’t necessarily mean you’re stalling

Edited November 8, 2023 by 1032004

[1032004]

6 minutes ago, jross said:

When bottom lets top get in the double boots, and bottom lets top extend them on their belly, and top is working powerhalfs while bottom is squirming, grunting, and hoping for a stalemate... who is stalling?

“Squirming” sounds like they’re trying to get out, so not the bottom guy.

If top is actually working powerhalfs, they are not stalling either.  If they’re just playing with wrists, stalling.

[lu1979]

On 11/7/2023 at 8:36 AM, jross said:

More from Pat Milkovich

In the body of my response, being on your stomach is one of the prime reasons one gets "ridden,"  or turned.  Why is he on his stomach to begin with? There are a multitude of methods to prevent that. Virtually everything in wrestling has a stimulus/response mechanism involved, called "setups." There are setups to takedowns, setups for riding, mat returns, breakdowns, pinning, escaping, and reversals, etc. Once a wrestler understands those processes, it rarely matters whether he is on top, bottom, or neutral.  The S/R methods all share commonalities between humans and they are predictable. Trying to adequately explain, verbally, the techniques of riding is extremely challenging. Top and bottom wrestling are the most difficult aspects of wrestling to learn and to teach. It's becoming a lost art and I understand why so many coaches and wrestlers like freestyle. It’s way easier. Consequently, it's why I love folkstyle, a wrestler can't be good in just one facet, he has to exhibit comprehension and competency in all three facets. 

On bottom, one of the important techniques is to keep your hands/wrists free.  Watch the NCAA's and notice how many wrestlers break down to an elbow while on bottom.  Big NO, NO. Wrists are begging to be controlled.  Stay off your elbows, keep your hands/wrists free,  stay off your belly, and you've just gotten light years better from bottom.

Riding or controlling the bottom man doesn't mean you grow roots on his ankle or stay stuck in one position. The true art of top wrestling is learning to change off, switch sides, and work the bottom man from head to ankles, while making him carry your weight, keeping him out of balance, and creating pressures and torques to make him use more of his strength and energy to neutralize or counteract all the forces. You and others may call it stalling, but it isn't.  It has a cumulative effect on the bottom man's stamina and psyche.  He's not scoring points, times ticking down, he's frustrated, fighting hard wasting energy and getting tired, top guy is gaining a point, and you're in his head because he knows he can't get out unless you let him out. If/when he does get out, his reactions may be slower because he wasted so much energy on bottom...and your'e still in his head with riding time. Many times in close matches with quality kids, the determining factor its RT. That's why RT is an asset to the sport.  No one should be given a free out or up, just because he can't do it himself. If he doesn't like being on bottom, learn to get out and you are now in your desired "neutral." If someone can dominate you on top, he deserves some reward.  Appropriately, that is riding time, control time, you suck on bottom time... call it whatever, but the top guy should not be penalized and taken out of a position of dominance/control and put on his feet just because the bottom man is inept. That's actually a form of "income inequality." There are plenty of lousy bottom wrestlers who can't get out but are difficult to turn because they've spent so much time there. So RT is his penalty and top's reward.  

Both of those commentaries from PM are priceless - perfect summary of why I love folkstyle and the "real" top and bottom wrestling that goes with it.

[jross]

Is securing and controlling an ankle considered aggressive wrestling before the riding point is secure, but is the same action considered stalling when additional riding points are not possible? 

[jross]

Can the losing wrestler be called for stalling?

[jross]

13 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

“Squirming” sounds like they’re trying to get out, so not the bottom guy.

If top is actually working powerhalfs, they are not stalling either.  If they’re just playing with wrists, stalling.

What if 'looking busy' by playing with wrists is part of securing the riding time point?

[jross]

14 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

“Squirming” sounds like they’re trying to get out, so not the bottom guy.

It isn't stalling by bottom when overpowered by top.

But what about when bottom stops attempting aggressive action to score (perhaps because they lack the skill to score) or they are in turtle mode to avoid top action?

Still boots in situation...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

“Squirming” sounds like they’re trying to get out, so not the bottom guy.

If top is actually working powerhalfs, they are not stalling either.  If they’re just playing with wrists, stalling.

Squirming is something I definitely look at.  Bottom guy legit squirming? He is not stalling. 

If the top guy is "legit working power halves" but staying on the squirming man's  hips and still nothing is happening, I'll give him a little bit of time.  After a while it is going to be a stalemate.  If the same situation is happening with no scoring, it will probably be stalling on the top guy eventually.  I probably give the top man more time than most refs in my area, but at some point he needs to get a turn or get to a new position.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, jross said:

Is securing and controlling an ankle considered aggressive wrestling before the riding point is secure, but is the same action considered stalling when additional riding points are not possible? 

Based on the new rule, both are stalling, unless it is doing something to set up a turn (of which breaking down the opponent qualifies)

1 hour ago, jross said:

Can the losing wrestler be called for stalling?

Yes.

1 hour ago, jross said:

What if 'looking busy' by playing with wrists is part of securing the riding time point?

See above.  Stalling if not working towards a turn.

1 hour ago, jross said:

It isn't stalling by bottom when overpowered by top.

But what about when bottom stops attempting aggressive action to score (perhaps because they lack the skill to score) or they are in turtle mode to avoid top action?

Still boots in situation...

Yes, that is stalling on bottom.

[swoopdown]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:57 AM, ionel said:

In this digital AI etc age there is really no reason we can't use fractions in scoring.  I say a reversal should be:  Two point Fiiiiive!

this opens up possibilities.  As FS fans have no appreciation for a good ride, negative riding time could be introduced to placate them - so if the stall offender rides for 4 minutes and 43 seconds the bottom guy accumulates 4.43 points as the match progresses.   If that doesn't put a stake in mat wrestling you can add penalty points to the opposing teams score; e.g. log(4.3) = 0.64640372622.  Or if that isn't enough introduce an identity cosine -4.43 penalty as follows:

cos-4.43
= sin (π/2 – 4.43) = sin -2.8592036732051 reduction of the top riding colonizer team score or
= sin (π/2 + 4.43) = sin 6.0007963267949 add to ride stalling oppressed team score

maybe we could add a vanna white type dial spin to select different penalty systems - that would not only make dual meets more sexy but also make it more confusing like FS in the sense that in FS fans watch a sequence and think that the score is x and y only to have the score actually be announced as a and b.  Then an expert will explain why the scoring was actually ax and y-b because the refs got it wrong causing the coaches to undress or throw a chair. The fans of course go home and post to what grows to become a multi-page that never dies unless a moderator induced mercy killing is invoked. 

Sure, my solution isn't perfect but it's a start.

 

[Leg rider]

Well clearly coaches not stripping down to their underwear in protest of odd scoring rules is what is missing in college wrestling

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, Leg rider said:

Well clearly coaches not stripping down to their underwear in protest of odd scoring rules is what is missing in college wrestling

Truth

[pmilk]

hmmm...where to start. I just love how people always blame others for their station in life, or wrestling. If I get broken down, it's the guy on top who is stalling. If he spirals me, he's stalling. If he throws legs, he's stalling. If he hooks my ankle, he's stalling. If he catches my ankle, he's stalling. Watch the NCAA's and notice how many "good" wrestlers break down to an elbow and then their wrists get tied up, or get their arm chopped, or flatten out and have no clue how prevent or counter. Not the top guys fault. Here was the moment in my career that one sentence changed my entire outlook and career. 

Back in the day, college coaches could actually come to a recruits h.s. and practice with him. It was my senior year and Fred Powell from Slippery Rock came to Maple Hts. to roll around with me. Fred was an NCAA Champion. I actually got the better of him when we went takedowns. Then we went top and bottom. He got on top and put a figure 4 around my waist. It was legal back then and he literally beat the shit out of me (making it clear that he was pissed about the TD's). When we finished with "Escapes," I sauntered over to my dad (my coach) and asked, "How do I get out of that?" His response, "Don't get into it you jackass!" Epiphany! The reason you can't get out of a situation is because you haven't been trained to: 1) prevent it and: 2) to counter it or: 3) neutralize it.  Same with legs, same with spiral, same with cradles, same with singles, doubles, fireman, headlocks, etc. There are "setups" and symptoms to everything that is going to happen. Setups to TD's, breakdowns, escapes, legs, and turns. With very few exceptions, if prevention fails, there are counters to everything that happens to you. 

Just because you can't turn someone doesn't mean you are stalling. I'm gaining RT, clock's running down, he's getting tired fighting all the torques, leverages, and imbalances.  Part of my objective on top was to wear him down and frustrate him, and get in his head because he knows he can't get away unless I let him. I kept the ref happy (you read that correctly) by constantly changing off and working him much like a gymnast works a pommel horse...ankles to hips to shoulders to wrists back to hips to ankles and repeat as necessary.  I would attempt the obligatory techniques that were known to be precursors to "turns" or pinning combo's but his reactions usually allowed me better positions for control.  There's one thing I recognized early on in my career. Some guys spend so much time on bottom and although they can't get away, they are wise to many of the turn techniques and can counter rather well. Trust me, I scored my share of back points..we didn't have tech falls. Whether we won 2-1 or 20-1 it was still a 3pts for the team. Full disclosure, I pinned one guy in hs and one in college.

I have never in my entire career (since 8th grade) ever been warned for stalling on top or bottom. Been warned and called for stalling in the final 30 seconds of a match but the calls were inconsequential to the outcome. His fault for being behind so that I could have that allowance. It's part of the strategy. Like all other strategies, stalling is a science. it was a big part of my game plan and smart wrestlers know how/when to use and disguise it. 

Anyway, I will still stand by the premise that if you cannot escape from bottom, regardless of what the top guy is doing, it's lack of coaching or your lack of learning. Being on bottom gives you the opportunity to score and limit top guys RT. I looked at every position as an advantage to me because I was very well coached. My goal was to get my hand raised and do within the parameters of the rules.

pmilk

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, pmilk said:

hmmm...where to start. I just love how people always blame others for their station in life, or wrestling. If I get broken down, it's the guy on top who is stalling. If he spirals me, he's stalling. If he throws legs, he's stalling. If he hooks my ankle, he's stalling. If he catches my ankle, he's stalling. Watch the NCAA's and notice how many "good" wrestlers break down to an elbow and then their wrists get tied up, or get their arm chopped, or flatten out and have no clue how prevent or counter. Not the top guys fault. Here was the moment in my career that one sentence changed my entire outlook and career. 

Back in the day, college coaches could actually come to a recruits h.s. and practice with him. It was my senior year and Fred Powell from Slippery Rock came to Maple Hts. to roll around with me. Fred was an NCAA Champion. I actually got the better of him when we went takedowns. Then we went top and bottom. He got on top and put a figure 4 around my waist. It was legal back then and he literally beat the shit out of me (making it clear that he was pissed about the TD's). When we finished with "Escapes," I sauntered over to my dad (my coach) and asked, "How do I get out of that?" His response, "Don't get into it you jackass!" Epiphany! The reason you can't get out of a situation is because you haven't been trained to: 1) prevent it and: 2) to counter it or: 3) neutralize it.  Same with legs, same with spiral, same with cradles, same with singles, doubles, fireman, headlocks, etc. There are "setups" and symptoms to everything that is going to happen. Setups to TD's, breakdowns, escapes, legs, and turns. With very few exceptions, if prevention fails, there are counters to everything that happens to you. 

Just because you can't turn someone doesn't mean you are stalling. I'm gaining RT, clock's running down, he's getting tired fighting all the torques, leverages, and imbalances.  Part of my objective on top was to wear him down and frustrate him, and get in his head because he knows he can't get away unless I let him. I kept the ref happy (you read that correctly) by constantly changing off and working him much like a gymnast works a pommel horse...ankles to hips to shoulders to wrists back to hips to ankles and repeat as necessary.  I would attempt the obligatory techniques that were known to be precursors to "turns" or pinning combo's but his reactions usually allowed me better positions for control.  There's one thing I recognized early on in my career. Some guys spend so much time on bottom and although they can't get away, they are wise to many of the turn techniques and can counter rather well. Trust me, I scored my share of back points..we didn't have tech falls. Whether we won 2-1 or 20-1 it was still a 3pts for the team. Full disclosure, I pinned one guy in hs and one in college.

I have never in my entire career (since 8th grade) ever been warned for stalling on top or bottom. Been warned and called for stalling in the final 30 seconds of a match but the calls were inconsequential to the outcome. His fault for being behind so that I could have that allowance. It's part of the strategy. Like all other strategies, stalling is a science. it was a big part of my game plan and smart wrestlers know how/when to use and disguise it. 

Anyway, I will still stand by the premise that if you cannot escape from bottom, regardless of what the top guy is doing, it's lack of coaching or your lack of learning. Being on bottom gives you the opportunity to score and limit top guys RT. I looked at every position as an advantage to me because I was very well coached. My goal was to get my hand raised and do within the parameters of the rules.

pmilk

And welcome to the board. Nice to have you. Great first post.

[fishbane]

I wonder what this would have meant for the great Anthony Gizoni.  I recall reading that he won an NCAA tournament without scoring an offensive takedown.  He would deliberately let people take him down, and then reverse them with his signature move.   That description is a little hyperbole as there was no such thing as points offensive or defensive back in his day.  Matches were either won by fall or riding time/referees decision.  Still I wonder if this kind of rule change would Dean Heil him or not.

[gimpeltf]

32 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I wonder what this would have meant for the great Anthony Gizoni.  I recall reading that he won an NCAA tournament without scoring an offensive takedown.  He would deliberately let people take him down, and then reverse them with his signature move.   That description is a little hyperbole as there was no such thing as points offensive or defensive back in his day.  Matches were either won by fall or riding time/referees decision.  Still I wonder if this kind of rule change would Dean Heil him or not.

Gizoni won in the early 50s. ('50/'51). The last year I see like you mention appears to be '40.

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Gizoni won in the early 50s. ('50/'51). The last year I see like you mention appears to be '40.

Correct on both counts. 1941 was the first year of match scoring.

• 2 Points Takedown
• 2 Points Reversal
• 1 Point Escape
• 4 Points Near Fall
• 1 Point For each minute of time advantage, with a maximum of 2 points

By 1951 the nearfall was only 2 and the predicament was added for 1.

It looks like maybe Gizoni could have made it to the finals in 1951 without a takedown. He won 4-2, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. But he won 7-6 in the final making it improbable, but certainly not impossible, he did not have a takedown.

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I wonder what this would have meant for the great Anthony Gizoni.  I recall reading that he won an NCAA tournament without scoring an offensive takedown.  He would deliberately let people take him down, and then reverse them with his signature move.   That description is a little hyperbole as there was no such thing as points offensive or defensive back in his day.  Matches were either won by fall or riding time/referees decision.  Still I wonder if this kind of rule change would Dean Heil him or not.

Fishbane, I found this. Not only did he win without scoring a takedown, he had a move named after him.

Gizoni

This is a move developed by Anthony Gizoni, 2-time NCAA champion and Outstanding Wrestler from Waynesburg State, PA, and perfected by Port Robertson who named the move after Anthony Gizoni. Anthony Gizoni won the NCAA tournament without scoring an offensive takedown, he would deliberately let people take him down, and then reverse them with this move. This move can be used to reverse your opponent any time he reaches over your near arm and is close to parallel to your body. It is also an effective means of countering and reversing or escaping a chicken wing.

1.     You need to get your body directly under your opponent, in a very compact squat back stance, but with your toes flat on the mat.

2.     Your elbows need to be tight against your sides to prevent your opponent from reaching under either arm.

3.     In many cases your opponent will reach over the near arm, or you can force him to reach over it by driving your arm back under and hooking it in the crook of your elbow. If the opponent is directly behind you “Crab Ride” type position, you can force under either arm.

4.     Once you have the arm hooked, you want to raise up your upper body.

5.     Throw your hand over your head, which will pull your opponent’s upper body across your upper body at a 45-degree angle.

6.     Post your other hand to the mat for support.

7.     Throw both of your feet out as far as possible under your shoulder of the arm with which you hooked your opponent’s arm. This will place normally will place you on your hip.

8.     Continue backing the rest of your body towards your feet, until you are once again in a squat back stance, and are completely out from under your opponent.

9.     At this point you want to drive back into your opponent reaching under his near arm and grabbing his far arm (you’ll need to lower your outside shoulder so that it goes under his chest), and grabbing the inside of his near thigh, with your near arm.

10.  Pull with both arms, driving forward applying chest pressure, driving the opponent onto his back.

11.  You will wind up in a reverse half-nelson pinning combination.

[pmilk]

Ha! The inimitable Rick Sanders once said, “When I’m on bottom, I have my opponent right where I want him!” 

[1032004]

6 hours ago, pmilk said:

hmmm...where to start. I just love how people always blame others for their station in life, or wrestling. If I get broken down, it's the guy on top who is stalling. If he spirals me, he's stalling. If he throws legs, he's stalling. If he hooks my ankle, he's stalling. If he catches my ankle, he's stalling. Watch the NCAA's and notice how many "good" wrestlers break down to an elbow and then their wrists get tied up, or get their arm chopped, or flatten out and have no clue how prevent or counter. Not the top guys fault. Here was the moment in my career that one sentence changed my entire outlook and career. 

Back in the day, college coaches could actually come to a recruits h.s. and practice with him. It was my senior year and Fred Powell from Slippery Rock came to Maple Hts. to roll around with me. Fred was an NCAA Champion. I actually got the better of him when we went takedowns. Then we went top and bottom. He got on top and put a figure 4 around my waist. It was legal back then and he literally beat the shit out of me (making it clear that he was pissed about the TD's). When we finished with "Escapes," I sauntered over to my dad (my coach) and asked, "How do I get out of that?" His response, "Don't get into it you jackass!" Epiphany! The reason you can't get out of a situation is because you haven't been trained to: 1) prevent it and: 2) to counter it or: 3) neutralize it.  Same with legs, same with spiral, same with cradles, same with singles, doubles, fireman, headlocks, etc. There are "setups" and symptoms to everything that is going to happen. Setups to TD's, breakdowns, escapes, legs, and turns. With very few exceptions, if prevention fails, there are counters to everything that happens to you. 

Just because you can't turn someone doesn't mean you are stalling. I'm gaining RT, clock's running down, he's getting tired fighting all the torques, leverages, and imbalances.  Part of my objective on top was to wear him down and frustrate him, and get in his head because he knows he can't get away unless I let him. I kept the ref happy (you read that correctly) by constantly changing off and working him much like a gymnast works a pommel horse...ankles to hips to shoulders to wrists back to hips to ankles and repeat as necessary.  I would attempt the obligatory techniques that were known to be precursors to "turns" or pinning combo's but his reactions usually allowed me better positions for control.  There's one thing I recognized early on in my career. Some guys spend so much time on bottom and although they can't get away, they are wise to many of the turn techniques and can counter rather well. Trust me, I scored my share of back points..we didn't have tech falls. Whether we won 2-1 or 20-1 it was still a 3pts for the team. Full disclosure, I pinned one guy in hs and one in college.

I have never in my entire career (since 8th grade) ever been warned for stalling on top or bottom. Been warned and called for stalling in the final 30 seconds of a match but the calls were inconsequential to the outcome. His fault for being behind so that I could have that allowance. It's part of the strategy. Like all other strategies, stalling is a science. it was a big part of my game plan and smart wrestlers know how/when to use and disguise it. 

Anyway, I will still stand by the premise that if you cannot escape from bottom, regardless of what the top guy is doing, it's lack of coaching or your lack of learning. Being on bottom gives you the opportunity to score and limit top guys RT. I looked at every position as an advantage to me because I was very well coached. My goal was to get my hand raised and do within the parameters of the rules.

pmilk

Once again, based on the new stalling rule, “earning RT” or “wearing down and frustrating” your opponent are not sufficient to avoid being called for stalling.  Must be working for a near fall.

[pmilk]

103...again, you miss the point and beauty of stalling being a science. It's virtually undetectable until the very end. The constant change offs and action on top is "wrestling." So every batter must try to hit home runs and every boxer must try for knockouts? So if they get a base hit, are they "stalling?"  And if they don't get a knockout, are they stalling? There are punchers and boxers and there are hitters and sluggers. The bottom man is responsible to carry the action as well. I have watched some incredibly exciting 2-1 matches in my lifetime.  High scoring matches tell me one thing...lots of mistakes from both wrestlers. That's how points are scored in my opinion...someone makes a mistake or you make them make a mistake. Some folks make very few mistakes...

[1032004]

52 minutes ago, pmilk said:

103...again, you miss the point and beauty of stalling being a science. It's virtually undetectable until the very end. 

I’ll take this as you admitting much of what you were describing is actually stalling, just trying to make it look like it’s not…

[jross]

When you take a two-step leadoff from first base, you are stalling and can find your way to the bench.

[pmilk]

103..you are correct! I was actually stalling: by running the clock out, keeping my lead, not taking risks... but I WAS scoring at the same time. RT is scoring. Getting him frustrated and tired was scoring. Feeling him quit underneath me was scoring. Scoring to me didn't necessarily mean points. It meant that I had control and an edge. That translates to his reactions being slower if/when he gets to neutral, which then makes my job easier. On top was a rest for me and a lot of work for him because of how I was using, weight, torques, leverages, and imbalances to make him fight hard to stay even and HIM not get called or stalling.  Any "turn" or pinning combination requires tying up or anchoring wrists, ankles, arms, legs, waist, etc. "Stalling" is obvious. Smart stalling is not. No ref could assume that with all the action, movement, change offs, and "turn" attempts, that I was stalling...because I wasn't according to the rules. The only time it was obvious was in the last 20-30 seconds of a match, in neutral, with a very good opponent or in the closing seconds of a championship match (not all of them tho). Usually, that's when an opponent will try "desperation" techniques...which are very easy to see coming and counter. Since we had no TechFall rule, there was no point to take a risk that might not work out well for me. Get ahead, stay ahead, wrestle smart (smart stall), work the clock, get my hand raised. There's a lot more to this...I haven't even gotten into edge of the mat strategies, off the whistle strategies, scouting strategies, technique strategies, drilling strategies, etc. You also have to remember, back then we did not get to avoid top or bottom...everyone had to take top and he had to take bottom if he didn't get pinned along the way...and the matches were 8 min...long freaking time to wrestle.

[Paul158]

2 hours ago, pmilk said:

103..you are correct! I was actually stalling: by running the clock out, keeping my lead, not taking risks... but I WAS scoring at the same time. RT is scoring. Getting him frustrated and tired was scoring. Feeling him quit underneath me was scoring. Scoring to me didn't necessarily mean points. It meant that I had control and an edge. That translates to his reactions being slower if/when he gets to neutral, which then makes my job easier. On top was a rest for me and a lot of work for him because of how I was using, weight, torques, leverages, and imbalances to make him fight hard to stay even and HIM not get called or stalling.  Any "turn" or pinning combination requires tying up or anchoring wrists, ankles, arms, legs, waist, etc. "Stalling" is obvious. Smart stalling is not. No ref could assume that with all the action, movement, change offs, and "turn" attempts, that I was stalling...because I wasn't according to the rules. The only time it was obvious was in the last 20-30 seconds of a match, in neutral, with a very good opponent or in the closing seconds of a championship match (not all of them tho). Usually, that's when an opponent will try "desperation" techniques...which are very easy to see coming and counter. Since we had no TechFall rule, there was no point to take a risk that might not work out well for me. Get ahead, stay ahead, wrestle smart (smart stall), work the clock, get my hand raised. There's a lot more to this...I haven't even gotten into edge of the mat strategies, off the whistle strategies, scouting strategies, technique strategies, drilling strategies, etc. You also have to remember, back then we did not get to avoid top or bottom...everyone had to take top and he had to take bottom if he didn't get pinned along the way...and the matches were 8 min...long freaking time to wrestle.

Hello Pat. I am a fellow Ohioan .I wrestled in the Akron area and graduated in !973. Great to have you on the forum. I understand what you are saying. I usually refer to what you are saying as wrestling I.Q. . Knowing all different aspects of wrestling in order reach your potential. I've always wanted to ask you your thoughts on wrestling a wrestler from my area named Jim Brown. You and Jim were both outstanding Ohio wrestlers in the same weight class for several years. I was very fortunate to get to watch your last college match in Arizona. Though you lost a hard fought match ,when you got on the awards stand the crowd gave you a huge standing ovation in appreciation of wrestling career. I for one was very proud of you.