Israel Attacked

[WrestlingRasta]

Not for nothing but having followed this thread just as an observer, didn’t take Uncle B’s angle on this at all to be justifying what Hamas has done. Rather an angle of wanting to understand what could drive them to such evil. 
 

Those are two completely different things. And understanding is typically an important step to solution. (Something that’s severely lacking in Palestine/Israel and beyond) 

[uncle bernard]

18 minutes ago, mspart said:

You lost the battle here with the fact that that you are justifying Hamas who are a bunch of barbarians that did not take the fight to the government and soldiers, but to mostly unarmed civilians in a surprise attack, burning alive, raping women, killing 260 youth at a dance event, decapitating women and babies.   COWARDLY BEHAVIOR!  There is no excuse for this and your arguments and justifications are getting real old and tiresome.   Even President Biden has said, "Hamas offers nothing but terror and bloodshed with no regard to who pays the price,” Biden said. “The loss of innocent life is heartbreaking. Like every nation in the world, Israel has the right to respond, indeed the duty to respond, to these vicious attacks.”

Head of ADL is condemning everyone not condemning these attacks.   You are left alone crying, but but but.....    There is no justification for this.   They are getting what they deserve.   Gazans are not innocent in this as theY heartily support Hamas.   Hell is coming for the Gaza Strip in a way they have not experienced before.   Did they think that would not be the result?  What were they thinking?  They were  not thinking immediate future that's for sure. 

What have Hamas been doing all this time?   Oh, they have been taking all the money and doing nothing but buy munitions and dig tunnels.   Have they put together a water supply so they don't have to rely on Israel?  Have they put together a power system so they don't have to rely on Israel?   No, they haven't.   All they want to do is kill Israelis.  Read their charter.   In 1988, Hamas published its charter, calling for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic society in historic Palestine.  And that was apparent this weekend when they cowardly went after the most vulnerable.   I suppose you justify ISIS and Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and Al-Qaeda, they did similar.   As the Japanese admiral said of the attack on Honolulu, he feared they had just awakened a sleeping giant.   Well, Israel has been awakened and I think they will accept nothing but total surrender this time out, and if they push for that, they should be supported by everyone.  

mspart

How many times do I have to say I don't condone it. Are you stupid or something?

Also, you can say this same thing about Israeli civilians who elect a government who illegally occupies Palestinian land. You can go in circles on this forever. 

My stance is clear. All the murder is bad. Your stance is "no, the Israeli murder is actually good and justified."

[mspart]

You are so predictable.  

"I don't condone the Hamas actions but Israel had it coming." 

That is condoning and justifying the cowardly attacks on civilians and the butchering that occurred.   You are trying to have it both ways, but you only have it one way. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Not for nothing but having followed this thread just as an observer, didn’t take Uncle B’s angle on this at all to be justifying what Hamas has done. Rather an angle of wanting to understand what could drive them to such evil. 
 

Those are two completely different things. And understanding is typically an important step to solution. (Something that’s severely lacking in Palestine/Israel and beyond) 

Spot on. Thank you.

Do we want this to keep happening? Obviously not. So who has the power to stop it?

Which country has more power? Israel. Which country relies on aid from our government? Israel. Which country can we influence? Israel.

So which country should we focus on to stop this? Israel. And trust me, many many Israelis agree with me. I'm basically echoing the Editorial Board of Israel's paper of record.

[uncle bernard]

Just now, mspart said:

You are so predictable.  

"I don't condone the Hamas actions but Israel had it coming." 

That is condoning and justifying the cowardly attacks on civilians and the butchering that occurred.   You are trying to have it both ways, but you only have it one way. 

mspart

No, it's actually not. Grow up.

[uncle bernard]

7 minutes ago, mspart said:

You are so predictable.  

"I don't condone the Hamas actions but Israel had it coming." 

That is condoning and justifying the cowardly attacks on civilians and the butchering that occurred.   You are trying to have it both ways, but you only have it one way. 

mspart

Let's make it straightforward for you. This morning, a group of Israeli settlers attacked a large group of Palestinians in the West Bank (not controlled by Hamas and not involved in the attack), killing three with others in critical condition. 

2 questions: 

1) Was this a moral thing to do?

2) If so, is it moral for Palestinians in the West Bank to kill settlers in retaliation?

I look forward to you answering these questions with no evasions.

Edited October 11, 2023 by uncle bernard

[uncle bernard]

4 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Man...some of you make my head and heart hurt based on your take of things....let me ask this simple question, who would you want in control over there...Israel, or Humas??

This kind of transparency is actually refreshing. It's not about right or wrong. Or Palestinian and Israeli lives. It's about maintaining a proxy state in the region. Same reason people look past the barbaric Saudi invasion of Yemen.

It's a much more serious and justified argument than pretending these states are innocent little guys who constantly get attacked for no reason at all.

[uncle bernard]

We've entered a post-9/11-esque lust for blood. Good thing that turned out swimmingly for everyone involved! Surely no lessons to be learned there!

[uncle bernard]

Israel now targeting ambulances helping wounded. Classic "double tap" drone strategy.

Similar to the bridge incident yesterday. They are giving Palestinians instructions to enter an area (cross the bridge to leave / help wounded), then targeting them when they arive.

[Plasmodium]

Egypt needs to set up a gigantic refugee camp for the non-combatants.  

[jross]

Did @uncle bernard state that Israel deserved the killing of innocents, or did he provide context for what may have led to Hamas' retaliatory actions in response to past Israeli events?

[Plasmodium]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

Did @uncle bernard state that Israel deserved the killing of innocents, or did he provide context for what may have led to Hamas' retaliatory actions in response to past Israeli events?

Latter, of course.

[mspart]

59 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

No, it's actually not. Grow up.

You are telling me to grow up?   Your left wing talking points are absolutely horrific.  How about you, justifying Hamas.   "Well they are only trying to defend themselves and they have been beat up and taken out to the woodshed so we can't blame them when they act out."

In all of this you have not blamed Hamas once.   After being called on the carpet you have admitted that what they did was not right, but.....    You have blamed Israel numerous times.   I'm just reading what you are writing and coming to a logical conclusion. 

The fact that you have not blamed Hamas for this attack is very telling.   The fact that you justify the attack by blaming Israel is also very telling.   Tale old as time. 

mspart

[Bigbrog]

So my guess is that about 80% of the US stands with Israel...man, the US must be a terrible nation for doing so according to some of you...aka Israel deserves their innocent people getting murdered.  

Again, I would like people to actually answer the question...would you rather have Israel or Humas governing the people over there??  Simple question...

Or how about this...do people believe Humas is a terrorist organization?

[Plasmodium]

9 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

So my guess is that about 80% of the US stands with Israel...man, the US must be a terrible nation for doing so according to some of you...aka Israel deserves their innocent people getting murdered.  

Again, I would like people to actually answer the question...would you rather have Israel or Humas governing the people over there??  Simple question...

Or how about this...do people believe Humas is a terrorist organization?

I'll ask you this question.  Do you want to know why I won't answer it?

[jross]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:47 PM, uncle bernard said:

While the (Hamas) attacks on civilians are heinous

 

29 minutes ago, mspart said:

In all of this you have not blamed Hamas once. 

To be fair ^^^

Edited October 11, 2023 by jross

[Bigbrog]

6 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

I'll ask you this question.  Do you want to know why I won't answer it?

Go ahead Plasi....it's obviously fair game for people to give their opinions on the matter.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

9 hours ago, jross said:

Your persona is the tap-dancing elephant in a tuxedo trying to prove he's a ballet dancer with a Ph.D. in ethics, whose steps contradict themselves.  You make up hasty generalizations and strawmen while serving rudeness with a side of moral high ground.

You criticized me for communicating that a society implementing behavioral euthanasia for unsafe dogs should support capital punishment for unsafe people.  You accused me of having a callous attitude towards taking lives, even likening me to a serial killer and suggesting I would enjoy harming people and dogs.  This ignores my statements that while taking a human life is morally wrong, I support capital punishment to prevent future harm to innocent individuals.

Your hypocrisy became evident when you compared people (Hamas) to dogs with rabies and stated that (unsafe) dogs (and people) need to be put down.

Don't be a dick.

More blah blah BS - and from someone making hasty generalizations and trying to take the moral high ground. (Hmmm... where have we read that recently.) We know the playbook for clowns like you - "accuse others of what you are actually doing." Not cute, just boring.

I criticized you because you were adamant about the backing of killing people who were already imprisoned (and no longer a threat.) But the weirdest thing was that your posts had a joyfulness and righteousness to them. My opinion was that referencing the killing of people in a "joyful" way was just too weird... it was sociopathic behavior.

Maybe it was the just the way you posted and you're not a super creep. That could be true. I don't know you - I just formed an opinion based on what you posted. Based on your continued garbage posts, I see no reason to change my opinion.

And, yes, the Hamas militants who attacked Israel should be put down. They are filth, dogs are better than them. An awful situation.

Edited October 12, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[jross]

You feckless dodger, who is ‘we?’

[jross]

My daughter has been working her first job for a few months.  We spoke today about how her taxes are enabling both sides of this skirmish to kill people, including innocent people.  

Sadness.

[Tigerfan]

Palestine was never a nation state in the modern understanding of the term. No one, least of all the newly formed UN, considered them when Israel was gifted the land after the Holocaust. It is not difficult to empathize with both sides. Both sides have suffered from the well-intentioned but callously executed plan to create a safe State of Israel. Arguing about who was aggressive first and who is simply retaliating is what has generated 75 years of tragedy and strife. “They started it” is the type of thinking that will never solve this problem. 
 

Having worked closely with the Saudi royal family, there is certainly some truth to the reality that western media is…ahem…heavily influenced by the Jewish perspective. Hamas is a terrorist organization, that was elected ONCE by the Palestinians in Gaza in 2006, and have not had an election since. That says something about the Palestinian people and Hamas. 
 

If Palestine is wiped of the earth as a result of this, the blame, in my opinion, rests solely with the imperialism of Britain and other European empires more generally. Why Americans continue to insist we have something to say about how other nation states conduct their business baffles me. 

[jross]

 

[jross]

***duck duck goose**.

Hamas official Ali Baraka says, "Our allies are ready to join the fight."
 

Quote

Senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said in an October 8, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Today TV that Hamas had been secretly planning the invasion of southern Israel for two years, even as it was making it seem like it was busy governing the Gaza Strip. He explained that this is the reason Hamas did not join the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in its previous round of fighting against Israel. He said that Hamas notified its allies in other Palestinian factions, in Hizbullah, in Iran, in Turkey, and in Russia only after the invasion started, and he stated that any prisoner exchange deal should involve Hamas prisoners held in the United States. Later in the interview, Baraka said that Hamas has a license from Russia to locally produce bullets for Kalashnikovs, that Russia sympathizes with Hamas, and that it is pleased with the war because it is easing American pressure on it with regard to the war in Ukraine.

https://www.memri.org/tv/senior-hamas-official-ali-baraka-prisoner-swap-america-planning-invasion-two-years-russia-support

Partial interview clip

 

[uncle bernard]

19 hours ago, jross said:

 

To be fair ^^^

once he saw that I didn't unconditionally support Israel's right to shed civilian blood, he lost his mind and everything else was a blur. 

He supports killing civilians (as long as they're Palestinians). I don't. I'm very comfortable with my position.

[Offthemat]

19 hours ago, jross said:

 

To be fair ^^^

He says killing civilians is heinous, then only mentions Israelis doing it.  Then he blames the Israeli government instead of Hamas for the killings, burning alive, raping, and hostage taking.  (All war crimes)

”The Israeli government led its people to this horrifying moment.”

He calls Jewish people in the land of Judea occupiers.  
Hamas edict is destruction of the Jewish state.  They have no right to exist.  It is the Palestinian leadership that has ruined their every chance of improvement since 1947.  Once Hamas is gone maybe it’ll get better for them.