Trump announces he is running for Prez again

[GreatWhiteNorth]

5 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

So again, what law did he break?  And you can't be mad at someone who follows the tax laws as written and thus, they don't have to pay as much tax as you hope they would.  Trump is a lot of things but the amount he paid or didn't pay in taxes doesn't make him a criminal.  Be mad at our politicians who made the laws and the IRS if you need to be mad at something.  Be mad and hate Trump for, well, to many reasons really, but being mad about his taxes is baseless.

I don't know which tax law(s) he may or may not have broken. That was my point. It's not as simple as reviewing what was posted here - tax cheating can be very complicated. Neither you nor I know. Oversimplifying it and taking a side is a silly approach. Claiming that Trump cheating on his taxes is "baseless" is just a guess. You don't know that.

The good news is that we'll find out after the investigation(s) are complete.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

Hi GWN,

I can possibly think it is that simple.   That line on the Form 1040 is the final statement of tax liability.  After all the shenannigans in all the other pages of the tax return are hammered out, they are all added up and the total taxable income is calculated, and the total tax owed is calculated, and the total payments over the year are calculated and based on all that, if there was overpayment, a refund is requested, if not paid enough, they owe more to zero out their tax bill.   This page of the 1040 form is the final say.   If an extension is requested, then the person will have to pay what the bill is at the time of submittal in April and if there will be further refunds or more payments, that will be described in the extension filing.  This list of returns did not have an extension. 

It is how the system works.   Have you seen it work any other way?   If so, that would be interesting.   These are the tax returns that have been put out there by the Congressional committee.   Not one of them supports a $750 tax bill or $0 tax bill as reported by the NYT and parroted by everyone else.   I have not read the NYT article but I have looked at many of the other articles written on this subject.   Nowhere is there any evidence of $750 given.   The only evidence they give is that the NYT said it.   From the tax returns that were wrested from Trump, I see no validity to the claim.   You'll notice this is not even a talking point anymore.   Died down pretty quickly.   I think NYT would have a very difficult time supporting their reporting on this, not really an exception for them these days. 

If you have more information that would show that this my information is wrong, I would welcome it.   I just know what I put on my 1040 form as tax owed is the tax I owe.  Trump has played this game for a long time, has been audited for a long time, and there has never been a tax dispute that I am aware of.  We would all be aware if IRS took Trump to Tax  Court or showed that his accountants had calculated wrong.   I have never heard any reporting to that effect. 

mspart

I agree with you. It's the "shenannigans in all the other pages" ... that's where any tax fraud would be found. That was my exact point. These few lines of final numbers don't prove anything either way. HIdden in the complexity is where any potential fraud would be found. We shall see.

[Mike Parrish]

6 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I agree with you. It's the "shenannigans in all the other pages" ... that's where any tax fraud would be found. That was my exact point. These few lines of final numbers don't prove anything either way. HIdden in the complexity is where any potential fraud would be found. We shall see.

Those pages mspart posted are also only portions of Trump's personal taxes.
There are ~450 corporations that Trump directly controls, and is liable for, as well.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

2 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Its funny how people want Trump to be guilty of something just because he is a dips@!# and they don't like his policies (which my guess is if some of the people on here actual knew what some of his policies actually were they may in fact like them).  I can attest to liking some of his policies but despise the man.

That's fair. But it's also funny how some people want Trump to be not guilty of something without evidence, either.

As President, his policy was to sign whatever the Senate put in front of him. Otherwise, watching morning TV, golfing and putting on rallies took most of his time. Until his final months in office, at which point scheming and plotting a way to stay in office despite having lost the election took most of his time and effort.

If you're referring to the Republican party's policies, I understand that. That's fair. But those were hardly Trump's. He did very little positive work as a president - a monkey trained to sign his name could have done about as much. On the other hand, he did quite a lot of harm to the country, and he seems to show no sign of regret. That's why I despise him.

[mspart]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I agree with you. It's the "shenannigans in all the other pages" ... that's where any tax fraud would be found. That was my exact point. These few lines of final numbers don't prove anything either way. HIdden in the complexity is where any potential fraud would be found. We shall see.

But you will not find in there that he only owed $750 in taxes for any year.   He minimum 200k in taxes those years. 

mspart

[mspart]

2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Those pages mspart posted are also only portions of Trump's personal taxes.
There are ~450 corporations that Trump directly controls, and is liable for, as well.

Ok, did those tax returns get distributed to everyone in the dump?   Did the NYT have access to these others as well, if they weren't counted with the returns I provided?   All that is available to me are his personal tax returns.  Maybe you were able to get something more but I don't think so.  You are supposing with out any evidence.   I am giving you the evidence that presumably NYT  had to make their idiotic claim.   Again, there is no more stampeding on this because i think everyone figured this out, that the NYT blew smoke.  If you get a copy of their article that their claim is based on, I would like to see it.   Based on what I have seen, they underestimated what he paid by 27,000%.   They either have access to a lot more tax returns than anyone else does, or they blew smoke.   I choose the latter because the former is not in the congressional dump that all this was based on.

mspart

[mspart]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

That's fair. But it's also funny how some people want Trump to be not guilty of something without evidence, either.

No evidence?   I gave you the evidence and you call that no evidence.  Then provide more evidence.  What more do you want than his personal tax returns?   That is the evidence.  

Here is more evidence.   Are the news outlets continuing to harp on the "he only paid $750 in income taxes a couple of years" or are they not?  Is this a relevant conversation going on or not?   The only place I am seeing this is in this board.   And that only continued because I was  the only one to actually present to everyone copies of the actual tax returns.  

And many here cannot take that at face value.   It is what it is people.   I did not make up those 1040 forms.   That is what was  provided by the congressional committee.   Take it up with them.   I would be seriously questioning my source of news based on this.   It is either a huge lie or it is not.   There is no evidence that it is not.  

mspart

[GreatWhiteNorth]

1 minute ago, mspart said:

But you will not find in there that he only owed $750 in taxes for any year.   He minimum 200k in taxes those years. 

mspart

Also agreed. I've seen articles saying he only paid $200 in taxes in some year or another. I take all those articles with a grain of salt. They all feel like their only purpose is to get us all riled up... and, in turn, to derail us from focusing on the important part.

• If Trump did commit fraud (which we don't know yet), then I'd like to see him pay the consequences. Wealthy criminals, even if they are politicians or celebrities, should be held as accountable as you or I would be.
• If Trump didn't commit fraud, then it ends there.

This all reminds me of the Gable Steveson fiasco where quite a few posters here called him out as being guilty as soon as news came out that he was being investigated. Same situation for the J Rob fiasco. 

At the end of the day, it gets sorted out and we all stop guessing with limited information.

 

 

[mspart]

Agreed.

mspart

[GreatWhiteNorth]

7 minutes ago, mspart said:

No evidence?   I gave you the evidence and you call that no evidence.  Then provide more evidence.  What more do you want than his personal tax returns?   That is the evidence.  

Here is more evidence.   Are the news outlets continuing to harp on the "he only paid $750 in income taxes a couple of years" or are they not?  Is this a relevant conversation going on or not?   The only place I am seeing this is in this board.   And that only continued because I was  the only one to actually present to everyone copies of the actual tax returns.  

And many here cannot take that at face value.   It is what it is people.   I did not make up those 1040 forms.   That is what was  provided by the congressional committee.   Take it up with them.   I would be seriously questioning my source of news based on this.   It is either a huge lie or it is not.   There is no evidence that it is not.  

mspart

Art, that post wasn't directed at you. I was responding to Bigbrog.

In any case, I think you and I have come to the same conclusion:

• You have posted factual forms, and we've both agreed that there's much more shenanigans behind the scenes.
• News outlets are reporting things that make little sense that are getting people riled up.
• We don't know what the truth is yet. But riled up people are taking sides before we know the answers (perhaps this is why the news outlets are purposely reporting the way they are.)

[Plasmodium]

10 minutes ago, mspart said:

No evidence?   I gave you the evidence and you call that no evidence.  Then provide more evidence.  What more do you want than his personal tax returns?   That is the evidence.  

Here is more evidence.   Are the news outlets continuing to harp on the "he only paid $750 in income taxes a couple of years" or are they not?  Is this a relevant conversation going on or not?   The only place I am seeing this is in this board.   And that only continued because I was  the only one to actually present to everyone copies of the actual tax returns.  

And many here cannot take that at face value.   It is what it is people.   I did not make up those 1040 forms.   That is what was  provided by the congressional committee.   Take it up with them.   I would be seriously questioning my source of news based on this.   It is either a huge lie or it is not.   There is no evidence that it is not.  

mspart

Everyone should continue yelling until there are meaningful tax reforms.  This is like we are all in a game of Monopoly that is winding down.  One player is equipped to hoard everything and the rest are left with nothing.

[mspart]

1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

Everyone should continue yelling until there are meaningful tax reforms.  This is like we are all in a game of Monopoly that is winding down.  One player is equipped to hoard everything and the rest are left with nothing.

This is a different matter altogether. 

 

3 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Art, that post wasn't directed at you. I was responding to Bigbrog.

In any case, I think you and I have come to the same conclusion:

• You have posted factual forms, and we've both agreed that there's much more shenanigans behind the scenes.
• News outlets are reporting things that make little sense that are getting people riled up.
• We don't know what the truth is yet. But riled up people are taking sides before we know the answers (perhaps this is why the news outlets are purposely reporting the way they are.)

Sorry.   Yes, I think we are in agreement here.

mspart

[Bigbrog]

15 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

That's fair. But it's also funny how some people want Trump to be not guilty of something without evidence, either.

As President, his policy was to sign whatever the Senate put in front of him. Otherwise, watching morning TV, golfing and putting on rallies took most of his time. Until his final months in office, at which point scheming and plotting a way to stay in office despite having lost the election took most of his time and effort.

If you're referring to the Republican party's policies, I understand that. That's fair. But those were hardly Trump's. He did very little positive work as a president - a monkey trained to sign his name could have done about as much. On the other hand, he did quite a lot of harm to the country, and he seems to show no sign of regret. That's why I despise him.

I have actually found myself agreeing with a lot of what you wrote on this topic.  I have a hard time when people just spew catchy headlines and blast politicians based on if they are a D or an R.  If either side screws up they absolutely should be held accountable...equally.

And wasn't sure if I wanted to address something you wrote about Trump's policies, or not his policies but don't want to go down that rabbit hole.  I too despise the man, but probably for different reasons than you.  

Stay well.

[BerniePragle]

13 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Everyone should continue yelling until there are meaningful tax reforms.  This is like we are all in a game of Monopoly that is winding down.  One player is equipped to hoard everything and the rest are left with nothing.

 

13 hours ago, mspart said:

This is a different matter altogether. 

mspart

Oh, I think this is exactly what this is about.

Much of the writings of the great Russian writers describe a Tsarist Russia with the vast majority of the population in extreme poverty and a very, very few ultra-wealthy empowered by the government/military.  Sound familiar?  This eventually led to the Revolution of 1905.
The amazing thing is that according to many academic studies, the wealth gap in the present day US, China, and Russia is even greater than Russia pre-Revolution.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-history/article/russian-inequality-on-the-eve-of-revolution/A5CED37A899914A15F9CFB1777A441DF
 

[BerniePragle]

19 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Its funny how people want Trump to be guilty of something just because he is a dips@!# and they don't like his policies (which my guess is if some of the people on here actual knew what some of his policies actually were they may in fact like them).  I can attest to liking some of his policies but despise the man.

Guilty as charged... And damn proud of it.

[Bigbrog]

30 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

Guilty as charged... And damn proud of it.

Yikes...but hey at least you are honest and I can respect that.

[BerniePragle]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Yikes...but hey at least you are honest and I can respect that.

I despise the man both as a person and for his "Trickle Down" BS policies.  His Rich Guy and Corporate tax cuts were no surprise to me.  Very predictable. He campaigns like he has the best interests of Joe the Plumber in mind, but I have no doubt he's never known anybody but the rich and jet-setters he grew up around and has surrounded himself with his entire life. Exactly what the middle class thinks this man would do (has done) for them is beyond me.

Ok, I came clean,  now it's your turn. Specifically which of trump's policies were/are you in favor of?  If it's his "Made in America" initiative,  please realize that was much more lip service than substance.  The off-shoring of American manufacturing has been 100% a result of Rich Corporate America's insatiable desire for more money, more profit.  If trump's dad had been involved in some sort of manufacturing enterprise for him to nurse off of, trump would have been at the forefront of moving manufacturing out of the US.
Until corporate tax and accounting laws are changed to no longer incentivize US companies from moving their manufacturing to other countries,  the loss of decent paying middle class jobs will continue. trump flapping his lips about it will change nothing. 

Any other of his policies that you are/were in favor of?

[Bigbrog]

41 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

I despise the man both as a person and for his "Trickle Down" BS policies.  His Rich Guy and Corporate tax cuts were no surprise to me.  Very predictable. He campaigns like he has the best interests of Joe the Plumber in mind, but I have no doubt he's never known anybody but the rich and jet-setters he grew up around and has surrounded himself with his entire life. Exactly what the middle class thinks this man would do (has done) for them is beyond me.

Ok, I came clean,  now it's your turn. Specifically which of trump's policies were/are you in favor of?  If it's his "Made in America" initiative,  please realize that was much more lip service than substance.  The off-shoring of American manufacturing has been 100% a result of Rich Corporate America's insatiable desire for more money, more profit.  If trump's dad had been involved in some sort of manufacturing enterprise for him to nurse off of, trump would have been at the forefront of moving manufacturing out of the US.
Until corporate tax and accounting laws are changed to no longer incentivize US companies from moving their manufacturing to other countries,  the loss of decent paying middle class jobs will continue. trump flapping his lips about it will change nothing. 

Any other of his policies that you are/were in favor of?

Appreciate the insight...but overall, insert any other president with what you wrote and it holds true.  None of the last how many presidents had a clue what was in the best interest of Joe the Plumber, gave lip service to all the things spewed during campaigning, contributed to offshoring and tax breaks to corporate America (now some of those things do make sense when looked at from an overall perspective in terms of getting companies in places to have jobs available for people to work and earn a living.  Can't criticize a company taking advantage of what is offered by our government, nor think the company owners are nothing but greedy in humane people when yet they are providing jobs, health care, etc. to a great number of people.  Anyway, I digress, to actually answer your question and not give this huge overarching statements, I think Trump did a good job at looking at how we were spending our money and getting people to pay their fair share (ie., the UN, climate committee).  His trade policy stance actually is fairly good considering how badly we were paying WAY more than we should have been.  Some, not all, his reduction of completely stupid and zero benefit regulations that corporations and individuals had to pay for I liked.  He did have a business head and made some good decisions in regards to our economy.

Now HOW he went about some of these things was terrible and drove me to dislike him as a person, but that doesn't change how I felt about what he did. 

I honestly think all our presidential candidates are essentially all the same, and until we do something different we can't expect a different result as a society.  I personally am more of a moderate who hates the D and/or R divide we have and who we have to vote for.  Get rid of the biparty and just vote for people based on what their potential policies are.

[mspart]

3 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

 

Oh, I think this is exactly what this is about.

Much of the writings of the great Russian writers describe a Tsarist Russia with the vast majority of the population in extreme poverty and a very, very few ultra-wealthy empowered by the government/military.  Sound familiar?  This eventually led to the Revolution of 1905.
The amazing thing is that according to many academic studies, the wealth gap in the present day US, China, and Russia is even greater than Russia pre-Revolution.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-history/article/russian-inequality-on-the-eve-of-revolution/A5CED37A899914A15F9CFB1777A441DF
 

We are not Tsarist Russia, the great majority of people are not living in abject poverty in the USA.   The country has way more middle class than Tsarist Russia had and that is by numbers, not percentage. 

I don't mind conversations about tax changes, but I don't think that is what this was about.   It was about a false premise of Trump only paying $750 a year in income taxes.   I showed that this is false with the data available to everyone.

mspart

[BerniePragle]

47 minutes ago, mspart said:

We are not Tsarist Russia, the great majority of people are not living in abject poverty in the USA.   The country has way more middle class than Tsarist Russia had and that is by numbers, not percentage. 

I don't mind conversations about tax changes, but I don't think that is what this was about.   It was about a false premise of Trump only paying $750 a year in income taxes.   I showed that this is false with the data available to everyone.

mspart

Of course we aren't Tsarist Russia.  Thankfully, almost the entire world has progressed a lot since 1904.  I'm astounded you didn't realize that what I said was about wealth disparity, empowered by a corrupt government, nothing more, nothing less.  But, If the Orange Imbicile gets a couple more terms, anything's possible.

[BerniePragle]

2 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

1)   Appreciate the insight...but overall, insert any other president with what you wrote and it holds true.  None of the last how many presidents had a clue what was in the best interest of Joe the Plumber, gave lip service to all the things spewed during campaigning, contributed to offshoring and tax breaks to corporate America.

2)  Anyway, I digress, to actually answer your question and not give this huge overarching statements, I think Trump did a good job at looking at how we were spending our money and getting people to pay their fair share (ie., the UN, climate committee).  His trade policy stance actually is fairly good considering how badly we were paying WAY more than we should have been.  Some, not all, his reduction of completely stupid and zero benefit regulations that corporations and individuals had to pay for I liked.  He did have a business head and made some good decisions in regards to our economy.

3)  I honestly think all our presidential candidates are essentially all the same, and until we do something different we can't expect a different result as a society.  I personally am more of a moderate who hates the D and/or R divide we have and who we have to vote for.  Get rid of the biparty and just vote for people based on what their potential policies are.

1)  Of course nearly all politicians are liars, and the crem de la crem rises to the top, Washington.  trump was just in a class by himself.  Always has been.  Sort of the Babe Ruth of Bullshit.  No politician has ever rallied the middle and lower class behind him with false promises like trump.  Amazingly, he's still a hero to many.

2)  If you say so.  I have heard his supporters say this.  I have zero idea if these things happened, or if trump was responsible for any of it.  Admittedly, my head spends a lot of time in the sand.  My blood pressure is better that way.

3)  I've been riding that horse for a long time.  I even voted for a third party candidate, Ralph Nader, 4 times for President.  However, to deny that one party is ever vigilant in protecting the rich is simply naive.  I don't even think it's beyond possible that many in Washington and their cronies, regardless of party, were rooting for trump in order to keep the vast majority of people divided.  No better man for that job.  He is the most divisive human being I've ever seen.   I can tell you what ALL of their policies are.  To protect and serve those that put them where they are and who fill their pockets with money.  Simple really, until we do something besides keep electing the same clowns over and over.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

[mspart]

2 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

Of course we aren't Tsarist Russia.  Thankfully, almost the entire world has progressed a lot since 1904.  I'm astounded you didn't realize that what I said was about wealth disparity, empowered by a corrupt government, nothing more, nothing less.  But, If the Orange Imbicile gets a couple more terms, anything's possible.

BP,

Yes, thankfully world situation is not like it was over 100 years ago.   And was like for almost everyone, everywhere since time immemorable.  The corrupt government I think you are referring to (USA) has raised the standard of living for almost everyone in the country from what it was in 1904(1804, 1850, 1776, 1669 etc), and that of many if not most of the rest of the world.  Not recognizing this fact, and it is a fact, makes our situation not congruent with the Tsarist example.   Now you may say our corrupt gov saw what happened in Russia and decided to change things around so people had it better so they would not revolt.   On the other hand, the Bezos of this world became rich because of conditions in the country as have many many others.  It doesn't keep people down, it allows for raising oneself up.    Look at the southern border, that tells you all you need to know.  Corrupt gov or no, people are coming in by the millions.  

mspart

[BerniePragle]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

BP,

Yes, thankfully world situation is not like it was over 100 years ago.   And was like for almost everyone, everywhere since time immemorable.  The corrupt government I think you are referring to (USA) has raised the standard of living for almost everyone in the country from what it was in 1904(1804, 1850, 1776, 1669 etc), and that of many if not most of the rest of the world.  Not recognizing this fact, and it is a fact, makes our situation not congruent with the Tsarist example.   Now you may say our corrupt gov saw what happened in Russia and decided to change things around so people had it better so they would not revolt.   On the other hand, the Bezos of this world became rich because of conditions in the country as have many many others.  It doesn't keep people down, it allows for raising oneself up.    Look at the southern border, that tells you all you need to know.  Corrupt gov or no, people are coming in by the millions.  

mspart

I agree completely with everything you said.  I'd like to add a qualifier though.  Except for the top x%, nearly all of the increase in the standard of living was up till the 70s or 80s.  Since then, the standard of living for much of the middle and lower classes has leveled off or even lowered, while the wealth of that x% has skyrocketed.  Now when the school (the taxpayer) buys a pizza for the school class, the fat kid eats half and the other 15 kids split the other half.  I guess that makes sense to some people.  (I trust the fat kid reference wasn't too oblique.)
 

[scourge165]

19 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

Guilty as charged... And damn proud of it.

There's just so much. If you were somehow able to dissociate the political component of this and they weren't so afraid, that phone call to the GA Sec of State should have been enough in and of itself. 'Just fine me 11,800 votes.'

That should have been enough for at least one charge.

But the Dems are so scared(and I actually understand this) to charge him as the talking point will invariably become, "they're taking out their political opponent." 

[Mike Parrish]

Bury him.

https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/just-security-model-prosecution-memo-trump-classified-documents-second-edition-june-2023.pdf