Top p4p US men's freestylers

[Le duke]

Lets hope indeed.  There's a book on how to beat Muskaev.  Lee must not have read it.

That was an absolutely inexcusable lack of knowledge and preparation against Musukaev. I was absolutely shocked by that.

Even if he gets put on the clock two times and gets taken down a time or two in the first, a guy with a motor like Nick Lee should know that if he’s still in the match (behind 9 or less) in the second period, he has a chance. A good one, even.


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[bnwtwg]

57 minutes ago, Le duke said:

That was an absolutely inexcusable lack of knowledge and preparation against Musukaev. I was absolutely shocked by that.

Even if he gets put on the clock two times and gets taken down a time or two in the first, a guy with a motor like Nick Lee should know that if he’s still in the match (behind 9 or less) in the second period, he has a chance. A good one, even.


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Did that happen before? Who was the opponent? Probably some dude who’s better internationally than domestically I bet

[Le duke]

Did that happen before? Who was the opponent? Probably some dude who’s better internationally than domestically I bet

IIRC, both Evan Henderson and Yianni were on the verge of being teched by Musukaev and then he more or less fell over dead in the second period.


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[peanut]

17 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I am a huge fan of all that is USAWrestling and their success.

Despite my hating on Blue Dragons, I was fully in support of Downey.  It was disappointing that he lost to a guy that Amine beat the very next round.  That tells me that Amine > Downey five years ago fwiw (that was 174lb Amine, too).

This all said, ignoring actual results seems silly.  I get that JB won 45 times and only lost twice to Dake and once to Taylor, however they hold the most recent win(s).  This said, Dake is also 452W - 1L against Taylor and the loss to Taylor was from either 8th grade or 9th grade.

It doesn't make sense to give that a proportionate amount of weight.  Even though Dake does not have the Olympic gold, he beat JB in the process as well as is 452W - 1L against Taylor (despite many believing Taylor should have won every match).

It's reasonable to put Dake ahead of Taylor in the p4p list based on their head-to-head results. But as of now, I am more impressed with Taylor's freestyle resume.

At 2018 and 2019 worlds, Dake's best win was against Hasanov. Then at 2021 and 2022 worlds, his best win was against Salkazanov. (In both 2021 and 2022, Sidakov and Kadzi were missing from the field.) Meanwhile, each time Taylor won gold, he had to beat Yazdani. Plus, Dake does not have an Olympic title while Taylor does.

[nhs67]

10 hours ago, Le duke said:

That was an absolutely inexcusable lack of knowledge and preparation against Musukaev. I was absolutely shocked by that.

Even if he gets put on the clock two times and gets taken down a time or two in the first, a guy with a motor like Nick Lee should know that if he’s still in the match (behind 9 or less) in the second period, he has a chance. A good one, even.


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Some people, not saying Lee did this, try to win every second of every match.  Doing that that might put you down even more than you should be very early and against a guy who's gas tank is ~90 seconds long, if you don't show patience you will lose via Tech.  Actually, I am saying that is what happened.  Through the WTT process Lee showed an incredible amount of patience in several of his matches.  If he does that against Musukaev, he wins.

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

If Zane Richards beats China's Wanhao Zou in Budapest—and I have Zane favored to beat him—he will have beaten all five of the top five ranked 57kg wrestlers the last time he faced each. Now, I'm not buying Darian Cruz as the fifth-best 57kg wrestler in the world, but UWW is buying it. 

On the other hand, UWW has Zane ranked 37th. I'm not buying that either.

Just thought it was an interesting bit of trivia. 

[1032004]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:46 AM, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

If Zane Richards beats China's Wanhao Zou in Budapest—and I have Zane favored to beat him—he will have beaten all five of the top five ranked 57kg wrestlers the last time he faced each. Now, I'm not buying Darian Cruz as the fifth-best 57kg wrestler in the world, but UWW is buying it. 

On the other hand, UWW has Zane ranked 37th. I'm not buying that either.

Just thought it was an interesting bit of trivia. 

When did Cruz start representing Puerto Rico?

[MPhillips]

52 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

When did Cruz start representing Puerto Rico?

2022 I believe.

[nhs67]

Cruz just lost to Flynn, the VTech backup at 125lbs in Poland at 57 KG.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

Eye test tells me Taylor is America's P4P number 1. Definitely at a comparatively easier weight but i'm not sure that if you adjusted for size that there's another wrestler on the planet outside of Sadulaev that could have dismantled Yazdani the way he did in the last world finals. 

[nhs67]

53 minutes ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

Eye test tells me Taylor is America's P4P number 1. Definitely at a comparatively easier weight but i'm not sure that if you adjusted for size that there's another wrestler on the planet outside of Sadulaev that could have dismantled Yazdani the way he did in the last world finals. 

I have wanted to see Yazdani - Snyder/Sadulaev for some time now.  A shame we won't see it.

Although... IF Taylor dismantles Yazdani in a similar fashion... do we see him test 97 KG?  He is their best option at 86, 92, or 97.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

56 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I have wanted to see Yazdani - Snyder/Sadulaev for some time now.  A shame we won't see it.

Although... IF Taylor dismantles Yazdani in a similar fashion... do we see him test 97 KG?  He is their best option at 86, 92, or 97.

His best bet is to hope Taylor gets old and declines before Paris. At Taylor's age it's possible. Other than that he knows at this point that Taylor is his superior. 

 

No way will he switch weights before Paris at least. Senior medals from 70kg - 97kg would be a great accomplishment, though. 

[nhs67]

52 minutes ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

His best bet is to hope Taylor gets old and declines before Paris. At Taylor's age it's possible. Other than that he knows at this point that Taylor is his superior. 

 

No way will he switch weights before Paris at least. Senior medals from 70kg - 97kg would be a great accomplishment, though. 

Why no way?  If Taylor dominates him, or even widens the gap, you don't think he might consider it?  Isn't Ghasempour also considering 97 KG due to him not being able to beat Yazdani?  If Yazdani decides he has a better chance against a field that might not have Sadulaev in it, he might be up for it yes?

[nhs67]

For the record, I also do not think he goes 97 KG.  I just wish he would if he cannot break that DT code any further.

[mspart]

Snyder wouldn't have any of it.   Snyder is the absolute #2 at 97 kg.   If Sad is out, Snyder wins, he has been very consistent.

mspart

[bnwtwg]

57 minutes ago, mspart said:

Snyder wouldn't have any of it.   Snyder is the absolute #2 at 97 kg.   If Sad is out, Snyder wins, he has been very consistent.

mspart

Snyder is the second best wrestler on the planet.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

No way is Snyder P4P 2. Lost to Sharifov in 2019 worlds and was literally seconds away from losing to Goleij of all people in 2021. He's a slight favourite if Sadulaev at 97 disappears but I would put a few guys over him p4p.

[bnwtwg]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:43 AM, Takuto_Otoguro said:

No way is Snyder P4P 2. Lost to Sharifov in 2019 worlds and was literally seconds away from losing to Goleij of all people in 2021. He's a slight favourite if Sadulaev at 97 disappears but I would put a few guys over him p4p.

Oh so he lost to one person other than the world’s PFP king of the mountain? Would you like to hear about the guy perennial world title chaser Brandon Slay beat?

Snyder slander will not be respected. Ask Taylor why they don’t wrestle or ask Nickal why he FFT’d.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

5 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Oh so he lost to one person other than the world’s PFP king of the mountain? Would you like to hear about the guy perennial world title chaser Brandon Slay beat?

Snyder slander will not be respected. Ask Taylor why they don’t wrestle or ask Nickal why he FFT’d.

Lol, huh? Why would the guy who is the clear number 1 at 86kg and has been kicking Yazdani's ( and I would rate Yaz above Snyder) ass  multiple times all throughout his prime go up 11 KG and wrestle Snyder?  Taylor would lose to Geno also, is Geno better than him or just bigger?

Nickal was never a real 97kg wrestler and was half hearted anyway. Clearly wanted out and into MMA.  Taylor beat him too as i'm sure you know.

 

No slander but Snyder has far more than 1 loss and is no way the second best wrestler in the world in 2023. Great wrestler but not second best regardless of weight.

 

If anything I think you are committing slander against Taylor the great. 

[nhs67]

9 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Oh so he lost to one person other than the world’s PFP king of the mountain? Would you like to hear about the guy perennial world title chaser Brandon Slay beat?

Snyder slander will not be respected. Ask Taylor why they don’t wrestle or ask Nickal why he FFT’d.

First off, weight classes exist for a reason.  That is what you are getting at, correct?  The counter to that is that while that is true, the P4P greats can go up a weight class and compete with those P4P gents.  Look at JB a few years ago against DT... the same DT who is/was #1 at 86 KG at the time.  5-5 on Criteria was it?  Look at Dake against Cox at 86 KG for OTT a few years back.  Look at Cox against Snyder.  The examples are there.  Hell, look at Zillmer, who isn't considered a P4P great at 92/97 KG when he went to 125 KG.  Look at Valencia at 92 KG up from 79 KG (let's be honest... he isn't a big 86 KG and has said, along with Marky Mark the reason to go 86 KG was that it was an Oly-weight and not size related at all).

DT up at 97 KG would absolutely be a factor against everyone, including Snyder or Sadulaev.  That said, I think he gets worn down against both.  That is my simple opinion.  Styles make matches, and DT could Tech the rest of the planet at 97 KG, I think he loses to those two, though due to style and not ability.  This also said, nobody in the world is as good as Yazdani at the Irani underhook series across any weight class.  There is no reason to believe he would not be a factor at 97 KG and I do think Yazdani does better against those two than DT would.

Secondly, you already know the answer(s) to your 'Why doesn't DT go up' and 'Why did Nickal forfeit' questions.  DT is #1 at 86 KG.  He doesn't have anyone in front of him, domestically.  That isn't a smart question, and you know it.  Also, he does wrestle him.  Every day, or close to it.  They know how it goes and both speak just as highly of the other.  Snyder has even said he can't compete with DT's scrambling abilities, so take that as it may.

Now on to Nickal.  Nickal forfeited out for two reasons: He had tweaked his knee against Mohammadian and was worried he would might cause further injury.  Also, Snyder is a teammate.  There was(is) no reason for them to wrestle and chance further injury to either of them at that stage of that tournament.  Fan or not, those are and were publicly known then.  The goal at that tournament was to win it.  When they met on the backside there was no reason to wrestle because there were no questions needing to be answered.

[bnwtwg]

DT called out Sadulaev for all the world to hear. That directly implies that he feels he is better than Snyder, weight class or not. So why doesn’t he go up

Chamizo (57,65,74) and Cox (86,92,97) certainly did not back down from the challenge of going up to a third weight class after earning major accolades at the two prior. Those are two good recent comps everyone is familiar with.

Additionally, Carl is known to have a keep-what-you-kill lineup but you’re welcome to stay even if you don’t win the spot and that cut is even deeper at the senior level with no team titles on the line. So I don’t feel that my comment was out of left field or (heavily) biased.

[MPhillips]

Snyder has made every team and medaled in every event since 2015 I believe. And he's in the weight class with the best wrestler in the world.  Snyder was making teams and winning medals when DT couldn't make the team... I'm probably biased, and yes I'm aware of Snyder's losses.  I'm still choosing Snyder...

 

[bnwtwg]

DT couldn’t beat the guy who couldn’t beat Snyder (that would be J’Den Cox the one Rudis series he actually competed)

Edited August 9, 2023 by bnwtwg

[Dr.White]

Will the Russian wrestlers be at the worlds as Individual Neutral Athletes?  

[Radik of themat.com forums]

the U.S. P4P
1. Snyder (Ohio)
2. DT(PA)
3. Dake (NY)
4. Gilman (Iowa)
5. JB (Nebraska)
6. Stevenson (Minnesota)
7. Cox (Missouri)
8. Nolf (PA)
9. Pantaleo (Michigan)
10. Valencia (Arizona)