Young Voters

[Mike Parrish]

1 minute ago, jross said:

I follow the thinking that the dr performs an ectopic procedure with the goal to save the life of the mother and the unborn.  The unborn normally dies from the procedure and the mother is normally saved.  This is different than an abortion where the intent is to kill the unborn.  Regardless of the intent behind how the unborn dies, it is a woman’s right to choose her immediate physical survival first.

No ectopic pregnancy results in a viable embryo or birth.
It is a life threatening condition that must be treated.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9687-ectopic-pregnancy
 

Quote

This is a life-threatening condition. An ectopic pregnancy is not a pregnancy that can be carried to term (till birth) and can be dangerous for the mother if not treated right away.

~1% of pregnancies are ectopic.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/signature_obgyn/patient_information/ask_expert/obstetrics-q-a/what-is-an-ectopic-pregnancy-and-how-is-it-treated.html

Legislators who write anti-abortion laws with no exceptions condemn these women.

[Le duke]

I follow the thinking that the dr performs an ectopic procedure with the goal to save the life of the mother and the unborn.  The unborn normally dies from the procedure and the mother is normally saved.  This is different than an abortion where the intent is to kill the unborn.  Regardless of the intent behind how the unborn dies, it is a woman’s right to choose her immediate physical survival first.

Holy shit.

If you don’t even know what an ectopic pregnancy is, maybe don’t express an opinion about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jross]

I don’t know what you are arguing about.  Many doctors take the position that I described and I support the treatment.

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, jross said:

I cannot comprehend that anyone believes it is a women's right to choose to kill a healthy, viable baby with the dismemberment procedure known as Dilation and Evacuation.  There damn well should be some regulation concerning the nuanced situation where abortion is tolerable. 

the majority of the country disagrees with your view and votes accordingly. they weren't tricked. they're smart enough to look around the country and believe republican lawmakers and anti-abortion activists when they say the ultimate goal is to ban abortion without exception. and now we're seeing more talk about going after birth control and IVF.

you have to be a real dolt to not understand that even if they current vote isn't for a 100% ban, that it was important for voters to draw a line in the sand and stand up for what they believe in. 

[jross]

Nah dog the majority agrees with some regulation

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/06/americas-abortion-quandary/

Edited November 17, 2022 by jross

[jross]

1 hour ago, Mike Parrish said:

No ectopic pregnancy results in a viable embryo or birth.

(◞‸◟) Not all ectopic pregnancies are tubal, and babies have survived. 

• 2013 (link)
• 2005 (link)
• 1968 (link)

 

2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

It is a life-threatening condition that must be treated.

Agreed.  Only stupid people disagree.  
 

2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Legislators who write anti-abortion laws with no exceptions condemn these women.

Thankfully these people are few and far between.

 

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

Holy shit.

Read it again where I say, " it is a woman’s right to choose her immediate physical survival first."

 

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

If you don’t even know what an ectopic pregnancy is, maybe don’t express an opinion about it.

Planned Parenthood says (link) that ectopic pregnancy treatment is not the same as getting an abortion. The Arkansas law (bill link) says it is not an abortion to remove an ectopic pregnancy.  Several doctors define an ectopic pregnancy treatment as losing the unborn baby as an effect of the mother's treatment.  (See Dr Kendra Kolb's short video).  


@Mike Parrish (◞‸◟) 

 

[Husker_Du]

all i know is that i consider late term abortion abhorrent. 

that being said, it effects me about zilch. 

i only wish it wasn't such a non starter for some voters so that (beyond the abortion issue) there could be something close to having sensible policies in other matters.

the current Dems in power are about as close to batshit crazy as possible and the only thing i can come up with is that they are doing what they're doing on purpose. 

[Crotalus]

9 hours ago, jross said:

For clarity, women could still get abortions in Kansas regardless of whether the amendment passed or failed.  And that is not what the media told us.
 

True. But the goal was to eventually pass a law that banned or highly restricts access, and this was the one and only opportunity for voters to stop it. This vote was about abortion access.

51 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

all i know is that i consider late term abortion abhorrent. 

the current Dems in power are about as close to batshit crazy as possible 

If you think the previous administration was sane, you lose any credibility to make such a statement. Voters have made it clear they have had enough of that circus freak show. 

Almost everyone would agree that late term abortion of a health pregnancy is abhorrent. But there are far too many possible situations where it could be necessary that you can write a law that restrict access. And the evangelicals believe in making it as restrictive as possible because, you know, "it God's will". The bottom line is it should be left up to the woman and her physicians, not lawmakers. Women aren't just going to over look that. 

[jross]

4 hours ago, Crotalus said:

But the goal was to eventually pass a law that banned or highly restricts access

That was not the sponsor's goal, according to their FAQ.  https://valuethemboth.com/faqs/

 

4 hours ago, Crotalus said:

This vote was about abortion access.

Multiple women in my extended family/friends circle (wrongly) posted that the law was a ban on abortion.  They were snookered; even those against late-term abortion.  But they didn't read the details... My personal experience in Kansas might be different than yours.

[Crotalus]

That was not the sponsor's goal, according to their FAQ.  https://valuethemboth.com/faqs/

Ummm.....

"The Value Them Both amendment restores our ability to place basic regulations on the abortion industry"

Literally in their first bullet point. They want to place regulations on abortion. We can argue over what "basic" means, but the only way for voters to ensure access was to vote against the amendment.

Multiple women in my extended family/friends circle (wrongly) posted that the law was a ban on abortion.  They were snookered; even those against late-term abortion.  But they didn't read the details... My personal experience in Kansas might be different than yours.

I am sorry to hear your friends and family struggled with the nuances of the bill, but again, the only way to ensure Kansans retained their right to abortion access was to vote against the amendment. Otherwise, it would be left in the hands of state legislators. As current Kansas law already bans abortion after 21 weeks and 6 days, which is most people consider "late term" abortion, the only reason to amend the constitution would be to allow those legislators to pass more restrictive laws. Snookered or not, this was, in effect, a vote to block abortion restrictions.

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[jross]

13 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

"The Value Them Both amendment restores our ability to place basic regulations on the abortion industry"

Regulation is spot on with the majority of people's desire.

The media would like you to believe that 10 out of 10 republicans want abortion to be illegal in every case.  It's a lie packaged to influence votes.

Pew Survey (link)

• 7 in 10 U.S. adults believe in regulating abortion
• 2 in 10 U.S. adults say that abortion should be legal in all cases, with no exceptions.
• 1 in 10 U.S. adults say abortion should be illegal in every case, without exception.

[mspart]

16 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

No ectopic pregnancy results in a viable embryo or birth.
It is a life threatening condition that must be treated.

 

This is correct.   Ectopic pregnancy is one that gets stuck in the Fallopian Tube.   It does not expand like the uterus.  It almost killed my wife via internal bleeding.  She lost have her blood supply.   An ectopic pregnancy will not result in a baby and may kill the mother.  My wife was unaware she was pregnant when she hemorrhaged.   The Dr on call had just gone to a conference and learned how to put the tube back together.   He did that for my wife and we had 4 more kids after.   This was pretty much unheard of before that time.  After this we move to MN and she told her doctor there and he didn't believe her.   I guess he didn't go to that conference. 

mspart

[Husker_Du]

8 hours ago, Crotalus said:

If you think the previous administration was sane, you lose any credibility to make such a statement. Voters have made it clear they have had enough of that circus freak show. 

what was crazy about trump's policies?

voters voted for student loan forgiveness, covid lockdowns, open boarders, shutting down oil production, billions for ukraine, and voting w/o ID but i'm the one who loses credibility? lol

everything about the left is nonsensical, including their stance on hs curriculum.

 

[mspart]

That's opening up the discussion!!

,mspart

[Husker_Du]

I mean, that's the entire premise of the thread, lol - that young people are stupid - and they also happened to decide the election.

if not for the horrible chess move of the Roe decision, the red wave would have happened. as it stands the right still took the house. 

so the 'voters spoke' thing is gibberish. 

[mspart]

Young people are stupid.   That is demonstrable.   In my day, everyone knew their multiplication tables.  Now, they need a calculator.    In my day, everyone knew we had 50 states.    That is debatable now if you believe man on the street type videos.  In my day, everyone knew about the checks and balances built into the Constitution to protect the union.   Most young people today don't know the difference between the House and Senate in Congress.   They cannot articulate their position on anything, "like you know, I just like feel that way, you know?"  They think they are owed something while putting no effort into making it happen for themselves.   They think a minimum wage job should provide a living wage rather than being a stepping stone to bigger and better things.    We have done them no service by giving them everything they want.   They think if they want it it should materialize.  Again, JMHO.

mspart

[Husker_Du]

which is why dems pander to them. keep 'em stupid. dangle carrots. 

[Husker_Du]

i forgot higher crime. silly me

[Ban Basketball]

19 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

everything about the left is nonsensical, including their stance on hs curriculum.

 

Thanks for illustrating what I've said about eggakashun for thirty years:  those who claim to know the most about how the edutation system works actually know the least about how it works.  All you have to do is let them talk to begin entertaining those of us with a "tad bit" of experience with it.  

Edited November 18, 2022 by Ban Basketball

[BerniePragle]

I'm sure 90+% of us would agree with the "Young people are dumb premise".  I think we would only disagree on the definition of "young".  When my son was playing Legion Baseball, his head coach was this guy 80+ years old.  He used to say, "Kids today are bigger, faster, stronger... and dumber than ever".  Smart guy.
 

Eventually, "we" will all realize that all this pissin' and moanin' by both sides is immaterial.  As long as "we" are divided nearly 50/50, the super-rich will continue to pick the middle class's bones clean.  It's not about abortion, it's not about gay marriage, it's not about who is using what bathroom, it's not about gun control, hell it's not even about clean air and water (as amazing as that seems to me).  It's about money, pure and simple.  Note how the issues change, the parties' position on issues change, politician's position on issues change, etc, etc.  Things are continually adjusted to maintain the 50/50 balance.

“Look at the orators in our republics; as long as they are poor, both state and people can only praise their uprightness; but once they are fattened on the public funds, they conceive a hatred for justice, plan intrigues against the people and attack the democracy.”
― Aristophanes, Plutus  408 BC
(See, nothing is new.)

Edited November 20, 2022 by BerniePragle
Italics for Plutus

[gimpeltf]

18 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

I'm sure 90+% of us would agree with the "Young people are dumb premise".  I think we would only disagree on the definition of "young".  When my son was playing Legion Baseball, his head coach was this guy 80+ years old.  He used to say, "Kids today are bigger, faster, stronger... and dumber than ever".  Smart guy.
 

Eventually, "we" will all realize that all this pissin' and moanin' by both sides is immaterial.  As long as "we" are divided nearly 50/50, the super-rich will continue to pick the middle class's bones clean.  It's not about abortion, it's not about gay marriage, it's not about who is using what bathroom, it's not about gun control, hell it's not even about clean air and water (as amazing as that seems to me).  It's about money, pure and simple.  Note how the issues change, the parties' position on issues change, politician's position on issues change, etc, etc.  Things are continually adjusted to maintain the 50/50 balance.

“Look at the orators in our republics; as long as they are poor, both state and people can only praise their uprightness; but once they are fattened on the public funds, they conceive a hatred for justice, plan intrigues against the people and attack the democracy.”
― Aristophanes, Plutus  408 BC
(See, nothing is new.)

 

[Ban Basketball]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:26 PM, mspart said:

Young people are stupid.   That is demonstrable.   In my day, everyone knew their multiplication tables.  Now, they need a calculator.    In my day, everyone knew we had 50 states.    That is debatable now if you believe man on the street type videos.  In my day, everyone knew about the checks and balances built into the Constitution to protect the union.   Most young people today don't know the difference between the House and Senate in Congress.   They cannot articulate their position on anything, "like you know, I just like feel that way, you know?"  They think they are owed something while putting no effort into making it happen for themselves.   They think a minimum wage job should provide a living wage rather than being a stepping stone to bigger and better things.    We have done them no service by giving them everything they want.   They think if they want it it should materialize.  Again, JMHO.

mspart

Once again, baloney.  I did an entire presentation on this a few years back, all the while tricking my audience (older and middle-aged people) who also think that they were smarter than "the kids today.

Unfortunately, our data shows that kids just keeping getting brighter and brighter.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/06/student-test-scores-continue-rise-just-they-have-past-40-years/

ONLY drops in 50 years have been during COVID, which coukd be expecked.

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/highlights/ltt/2022/

[BerniePragle]

15 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

Once again, baloney.  I did an entire presentation on this a few years back, all the while tricking my audience (older and middle-aged people) who also think that they were smarter than "the kids today.

Unfortunately, our data shows that kids just keeping getting brighter and brighter.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/06/student-test-scores-continue-rise-just-they-have-past-40-years/

ONLY drops in 50 years have been during COVID, which coukd be expecked.

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/highlights/ltt/2022/

I like to start my day with a laugh.  Thanks.

[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, BerniePragle said:

I like to start my day with a laugh.  Thanks.

I always welcome people to provide me data that would help me improve at my job,  and it has the added bonus of me not having to do the work!

So,  if you have data that shows test scores declining over time (not just the COVID years; we know that and I've highlighted that), please provide it to me.  I'll take a look at it and happily incorporate it into my work.  

So, search away for me, sir!

[BerniePragle]

1 hour ago, Ban Basketball said:

I always welcome people to provide me data that would help me improve at my job,  and it has the added bonus of me not having to do the work!

So,  if you have data that shows test scores declining over time (not just the COVID years; we know that and I've highlighted that), please provide it to me.  I'll take a look at it and happily incorporate it into my work.  

So, search away for me, sir!

Data, schmata.  Everybody's got data to "prove" whatever they want to prove.  Everybody's the best and have the data to prove it.  Ford's got data to prove their cars are the best.  So do GM, Honda, Toyota, et al.  Every political administration conjures up data to prove what a wonderful job they're doing.  I take all data intended to prove something with a grain of salt, if that.  For (to me) obvious reasons.

"tricking my audience (older and middle-aged people) who also think that they were smarter than "the kids today."
I suspect that is exactly what you did.  At least you admit it.  I also suspect that is what your linked data has been intended to do for a number of years.  Not everyone is as gullible as your target audience was/is.  

"Unfortunately, our data shows that kids just keeping getting brighter and brighter."  I'm assuming that you are in some way connected to our educational system.  In light of that, I find your use of the word "Unfortunately" disconcerting at best.  If true (lol), shouldn't this be celebrated?

You do realize the first study you linked is 9 years old?  Not that that makes it meaningless, but...

For both of these studies, I would be extremely curious about the relationship between the sources of the data, analysis and presentation of the data, and anyone who would benefit from this data possibly looking better than it may actually be.  No, I'm not curious enough to dig around the internet to try to refute what I'm sure you'll say, the next "study" you'll quote.  Anyone who thinks our primary and secondary education in the US has not gone downhill for probably at least 40 years has been asleep that long.

I believe it is a well known fact that our primary and secondary teachers very much "teach to the tests" anymore.  This would at least partially invalidate the use of test scores to represent actual comprehension, and even more as an indicator of critical thinking ability.  Certainly the test scores would not be an indicator of "smarter".  There's a lot more to that than simply regurgitating something learned by rote in anticipation of canned testing.

I'm sure we could debate the actual quality of primary and secondary education in Mathematics and Reading ad nauseam.  However, the original topic of the thread was young voters.  This would much more involve education in Civics, which I very much question the quality of recently (if it even exists).  Also necessary for an enlightened electorate are Classical Logic, understanding and determining independence of sources of information, ie simply being able to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Before I retired, I worked with many young Engineers, most from the best universities in the country.  None of them had received a quality education in Civics, Government, the Civil Rights Movement, etc, at any level, even at what I'd call acceptable for hard science majors.   And, these young men and women were way above average intelligence.  I also would question their Math, Science, and Engineering education, a subject in which I am qualified to judge.  They sure were good (quick) at clicking a mouse, though.  I found that scary.

I usually don't do this, but when your post questions the older guys' intelligence, I'll make an exception.  I'll take a moment to correct your grammar:  "who also think thought that they were smarter than the kids today".  I think you need past tense here.  You have an "agreement problem".  Probably in my day about 7th grade English.