Penn State 23-24

[CementMixer]

125 Howard

133 Nagao

141 Bartlett 

149 Van Ness 

157 Haines

165 Mesenbrink 

174 Starocci 

184 Truax

197 Brooks

285 Kerkvliet

143 returning points...more then the 2nd and 3rd most teams...combined.

[flyingcement]

4 minutes ago, CementMixer said:

125 Howard

133 Nagao

141 Bartlett 

149 Van Ness 

157 Haines

165 Mesenbrink 

174 Starocci 

184 Truax

197 Brooks

285 Kerkvliet

143 returning points...more then the 2nd and 3rd most teams...combined.

And Mesenbrink, who didn't score any, is the best wrestler on the entire team

[BaldAt23]

This has to be the greatest team in the history of NCAA wrestling. What a lineup. 

[Idaho]

6 hours ago, BaldAt23 said:

This has to be the greatest team in the POST NIL TRANSFER PORTAL history of NCAA wrestling. What a lineup. 

I think we need to distinguish the two eras. Assembling and developing a team is different than being able to fill in the holes in free agency. Down the road college sports will refer to eras as Pre and Post NIL/Portal when it comes to dynasties. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, BaldAt23 said:

This has to be the greatest team in the history of NCAA wrestling. What a lineup. 

Not even close

[nhs67]

6 minutes ago, Idaho said:

I think we need to distinguish the two eras. Assembling and developing a team is different than being able to fill in the holes in free agency. Down the road college sports will refer to eras as Pre and Post NIL/Portal when it comes to dynasties. 

That shouldn't be the defining term on eras.  If it is, then there should also be a modern era and pre-modern era.

The technology and training out there today has wrestling in the USofA the best it has ever been.  There are the unicorns that might have done well in today's wrestling world, but if you were to take today's wrestlers and put them back in that day and you have many more potential unicorns.

Hell, there are five eras.

Pre-Gable

Cold War Gable

90s to early 00s

Modern

NIL

Think of Mark Schultz, for example.
- 150/158 as a Frosh
- 167 NCAA Champion as a Soph
- 177 NCAA Champion as a Junior/Senior

How does he do in each of the five eras?  As far as style and technique and all that goes, Modern and NIL are the most similar.  He was named the 'Best College Wrestler of the Decade' in the 1980s by his peers, which is essentially ten hodges.  He is (was) a unicorn.  He would compete and contend at the college level.  He wouldn't be a favorite.  Brute force was his methodology.  I see him sort of as a Mikey Labs.  Not a knock to either, just not a unicorn for the Modern or NIL era.

Take Bo Nickal or Zahid Valencia back to the Cold War Gable era and between Schultz and Banach (6 NCAA titles) they might have one (Schultz at 167).

Disclaimer: These are my opinions.  You are allowed to have different opinions on the matter without being a douche.

[ionel]

9 hours ago, CementMixer said:

125 Howard

133 Nagao

141 Bartlett 

149 Van Ness 

157 Haines

165 Mesenbrink 

174 Starocci 

184 Truax

197 Brooks

285 Kerkvliet

143 returning points...more then the 2nd and 3rd most teams...combined.

If they don't win 7 or more then we know Cael is slipping and 24-25 will be open for the taking.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

You are allowed to have different opinions on the matter without being a douche.

You must be new here.

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Hell, there are five eras.

Pre-Gable

Cold War Gable

90s to early 00s

Modern

NIL

 

Blending your five eras with my four rules/scoring based eras gets us seven eras. I have Pre-Gable broken into three. And you have 10 weights, 8 places broken into four:

[feet2back]

125- Howard....Ronnie?

Edited April 28, 2023 by feet2back

[MLB9]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Not even close

Time will tell, won’t it Jimmy. It will be close, if that is the lineup they take into the postseason next year. That team would threaten the all-time mark, not sure what other standard or comparison you’d use.

[CementMixer]

8 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Not even close

Your act is ancient: The entire world knows your a PSU hater.

[nhs67]

5 minutes ago, CementMixer said:

Your act is ancient: The entire world knows you're a PSU hater.

FIFY

Also, don't feed the troll.  It provides him (or her) sustenance he (or she) might not otherwise get in his (or her) real life.

[scourge165]

9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

That shouldn't be the defining term on eras.  If it is, then there should also be a modern era and pre-modern era.

The technology and training out there today has wrestling in the USofA the best it has ever been.  There are the unicorns that might have done well in today's wrestling world, but if you were to take today's wrestlers and put them back in that day and you have many more potential unicorns.

Hell, there are five eras.

Pre-Gable

Cold War Gable

90s to early 00s

Modern

NIL

Think of Mark Schultz, for example.
- 150/158 as a Frosh
- 167 NCAA Champion as a Soph
- 177 NCAA Champion as a Junior/Senior

How does he do in each of the five eras?  As far as style and technique and all that goes, Modern and NIL are the most similar.  He was named the 'Best College Wrestler of the Decade' in the 1980s by his peers, which is essentially ten hodges.  He is (was) a unicorn.  He would compete and contend at the college level.  He wouldn't be a favorite.  Brute force was his methodology.  I see him sort of as a Mikey Labs.  Not a knock to either, just not a unicorn for the Modern or NIL era.

Take Bo Nickal or Zahid Valencia back to the Cold War Gable era and between Schultz and Banach (6 NCAA titles) they might have one (Schultz at 167).

Disclaimer: These are my opinions.  You are allowed to have different opinions on the matter without being a douche.

I think this is all pretty accurate. People shouldn't take this personally....but they will.

If you took Mark Schultz, gave him some elite level training from just 6th grade on, he'd likely be a "unicorn" in today's era...probably. As it stood, he had NEVER won a Tournament until his Sr year in HS and it was the State Tournament(I know I've made this point before, but it highlights the contrast to starkly). 

Compare that to a Mark Hall(who I thought was a Unicorn) or a Beau Basset who's been Wrestling all over the world since JHS.

 

BUT, you're not taking that into account in this hypothetical...in which case, I think Nickal or Zahid would have easily been 4X Champs and I know the studs from the 80s agree with me. If people are honest, they can admit to how Wrestling has progressed as they age. It's been less than 15 years for me and it's objectively better now. 

In 20 years...I'd be disappointed if we're not saying the same thing about the guys right now.

 

***This doesn't diminish Schultz level of greatness in my mind. He was an absolute monster. Doesn't diminish anyone. I don't think less of Ted Williams because you didn't have left handed specialists or guys couldn't touch the velocity of the pitchers now. Just compare guys to the era they competed in. I think that's what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Idaho]

9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

That shouldn't be the defining term on eras.  If it is, then there should also be a modern era and pre-modern era.

The technology and training out there today has wrestling in the USofA the best it has ever been.  There are the unicorns that might have done well in today's wrestling world, but if you were to take today's wrestlers and put them back in that day and you have many more potential unicorns.

Hell, there are five eras.

Pre-Gable

Cold War Gable

90s to early 00s

Modern

NIL

Think of Mark Schultz, for example.
- 150/158 as a Frosh
- 167 NCAA Champion as a Soph
- 177 NCAA Champion as a Junior/Senior

How does he do in each of the five eras?  As far as style and technique and all that goes, Modern and NIL are the most similar.  He was named the 'Best College Wrestler of the Decade' in the 1980s by his peers, which is essentially ten hodges.  He is (was) a unicorn.  He would compete and contend at the college level.  He wouldn't be a favorite.  Brute force was his methodology.  I see him sort of as a Mikey Labs.  Not a knock to either, just not a unicorn for the Modern or NIL era.

Take Bo Nickal or Zahid Valencia back to the Cold War Gable era and between Schultz and Banach (6 NCAA titles) they might have one (Schultz at 167).

Disclaimer: These are my opinions.  You are allowed to have different opinions on the matter without being a douche.

If I were speaking in terms of wrestling history, then yes.... but it was only in the context of PSU's roster being built this year through the portal and NIL. The context of future rosters being built will be defined in an NIL/Portal era vs Pre-NIL/Portal era. It is it's own category  in and of itself, but not the only way to break down eras. 

[nhs67]

12 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think this is all pretty accurate. People shouldn't take this personally....but they will.

If you took Mark Schultz, gave him some elite level training from just 6th grade on, he'd likely be a "unicorn" in today's era...probably. As it stood, he had NEVER won a Tournament until his Sr year in HS and it was the State Tournament(I know I've made this point before, but it highlights the contrast to starkly). 

Compare that to a Mark Hall(who I thought was a Unicorn) or a Beau Basset who's been Wrestling all over the world since JHS.

 

BUT, you're not taking that into account in this hypothetical...in which case, I think Nickal or Zahid would have easily been 4X Champs and I know the studs from the 80s agree with me. If people are honest, they can admit to how Wrestling has progressed as they age. It's been less than 15 years for me and it's objectively better now. 

In 20 years...I'd be disappointed if we're not saying the same thing about the guys right now.

 

***This doesn't diminish Schultz level of greatness in my mind. He was an absolute monster. Doesn't diminish anyone. I don't think less of Ted Williams because you didn't have left handed specialists or guys couldn't touch the velocity of the pitchers now. Just compare guys to the era they competed in. I think that's what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be clear, I am a stud from the 80s.

[nhs67]

14 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think this is all pretty accurate. People shouldn't take this personally....but they will.

If you took Mark Schultz, gave him some elite level training from just 6th grade on, he'd likely be a "unicorn" in today's era...probably. As it stood, he had NEVER won a Tournament until his Sr year in HS and it was the State Tournament(I know I've made this point before, but it highlights the contrast to starkly). 

Compare that to a Mark Hall(who I thought was a Unicorn) or a Beau Basset who's been Wrestling all over the world since JHS.

 

BUT, you're not taking that into account in this hypothetical...in which case, I think Nickal or Zahid would have easily been 4X Champs and I know the studs from the 80s agree with me. If people are honest, they can admit to how Wrestling has progressed as they age. It's been less than 15 years for me and it's objectively better now. 

In 20 years...I'd be disappointed if we're not saying the same thing about the guys right now.

 

***This doesn't diminish Schultz level of greatness in my mind. He was an absolute monster. Doesn't diminish anyone. I don't think less of Ted Williams because you didn't have left handed specialists or guys couldn't touch the velocity of the pitchers now. Just compare guys to the era they competed in. I think that's what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I am with you.

To help explain it a tad bit further:  Taking someone from now with today's training possibilities just would not be fair.

Putting them in the training scenarios of the 70s, 80s, or even 90s and they have lower ceilings.

[ionel]

17 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

To be clear, I am a stud from the 80s.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[scourge165]

16 hours ago, BaldAt23 said:

This has to be the greatest team in the history of NCAA wrestling. What a lineup. 

I think I'm putting the RS on Haines, letting Messenbrink go '57.

That's best for each Wrestler...I think. Plus, Facundo doesn't lose a year. Facundo is probably a top 8 Wrestler next year...and it's not like PSU needs him to win a team title.

Messenbrink is a potential 4X Champ. Likely if he Wrestle's '57 a year(or two) IMO. I don't know how Cael balances that out though. 

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think I'm putting the RS on Haines, letting Messenbrink go '57.

That's best for each Wrestler...I think. Plus, Facundo doesn't lose a year. Facundo is probably a top 8 Wrestler next year...and it's not like PSU needs him to win a team title.

Messenbrink is a potential 4X Champ. Likely if he Wrestle's '57 a year(or two) IMO. I don't know how Cael balances that out though. 

How does a potential 4xer end up at Cal B?

[nhs67]

42 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think I'm putting the RS on Haines, letting Messenbrink go '57.

That's best for each Wrestler...I think. Plus, Facundo doesn't lose a year. Facundo is probably a top 8 Wrestler next year...and it's not like PSU needs him to win a team title.

Messenbrink is a potential 4X Champ. Likely if he Wrestle's '57 a year(or two) IMO. I don't know how Cael balances that out though. 

Facundo can Olyshirt.

35 minutes ago, ionel said:

How does a potential 4xer end up at Cal B?

Askren went over this.  He didn't travel much until late and he isn't big on his AWA guys cutting weight so he flew under the radar and didn't have any interest aside for Cal B until after he beat Haines.

He could have gone just about anywhere but he felt he owed it to the coaches to give them a shot.

[nhs67]

45 minutes ago, ionel said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not quite that dark.  I am a bit thinner but much thicker in the gonad area.

[ionel]

Just now, nhs67 said:

Not quite that dark.  I am a bit thinner but much thicker in the gonad area.

But what about the fee?  Look about right?

[nhs67]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

But what about the fee?  Look about right?

I charged that in the 80s.

I am way cheaper now.  So cheap I actually pay you.

[Tigerfan]

14 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Facundo can Olyshirt.

Askren went over this.  He didn't travel much until late and he isn't big on his AWA guys cutting weight so he flew under the radar and didn't have any interest aside for Cal B until after he beat Haines.

He could have gone just about anywhere but he felt he owed it to the coaches to give them a shot.

I don’t believe he was not on Mizzou’s radar, given their history. Mizzou missing out on him not once, but twice now is perplexing to say the least. I wonder what the story is.