PSU Best Ever vs Iowa Best Ever - who wins?

[romesone]

On 4/1/2023 at 3:44 PM, Zahnarzt said:

Best ever at each weight class for both schools.  Who wins the hypothetical dual meet?

My take on PSU lineup —-

125 - Megaludis

133 - RBY

141 - Nick Lee

157 - Nolf

165 - Taylor

174 - Starocci

184 - Brooks

197 - Nickal

285 - Kerry McCoy

 

Will need help from Iowa fans on who fills their lineup. 

How in the world is Ed Ruth, a 3xer with the highest win % in PSU history, not in this lineup? 

[romesone]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:46 PM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Iowa's best crushes that lineup and it's not even close

 

Iowa

125 Spencer Lee (3x champ)

133 Tom Brands (3x champ, Olympic gold)

141 Jeff McGinness (2x champ)

149 Incoln McIlravy (3x champ, Olympic bronze)

157 Jim Zalesky (3x champ)

165 Joe Williams (3x champ, Olympian)

174 Joe Scarpello (3x champ)

184 Ed Banach (3x champ, Olympic gold)

197 Chris Campbell (2x champ, Olympic bronze)

HWT Lou Banach (2x champ, Olympic gold)

TJ Williams over Zalesky

[Wrestleknownothing]

20 minutes ago, romesone said:

How in the world is Ed Ruth, a 3xer with the highest win % in PSU history, not in this lineup? 

Another tragic example of Sanderson recruiting over.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Zahnarzt said:

Amazing what you can find out on Google.  Doing some research, Oklahoma State’s all-time lineup is unbelievable in terms of # of NCAA titles.  
 

125 - Yorjiro Uetake - 3x (undefeated)

133 - Eric Guerrero - 3x

141 - John Smith - 2x

149 - Stanley Henson - 3x

157 - Pat Smith - 4x

165 - Alex Dieringer - 3x

174 - Chris Perry / Chris Pendleton (both 2x)

184 - Jake Rosholt - 3x

197 - AJ Ferrari - 1x (likely multiple time champ if he could keep it together)

HWT - Jimmy Jackson / Dick Hutton (both 3x)

 

What’s crazy is some of these guys go back to the era where they were only eligible for 3 titles.  So some of those 3x’ers would have likely been 4x’ers.  
 

Disappointing I couldn’t find anyone to slot into 197 better than Ferrari.  Geoff Baum deserves as mention.  Would have liked to get Johnny Hendricks or Jordan Oliver somewhere into the lineup by shuffling weights around. 

Uetake seems like a safe bet given he was an Olympic Champ his first year...and then Henson. 

Ferrari likely has his 3rd(if we're just talking about pure Wrestling ability). Would have been interesting to see how he matched up with Nickal...or just how he progressed.

Johnny Thompson, Oliver and Hendricks like you said...Chris Perry probably doesn't make the lineup.

[Threadkilla]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Another tragic example of Sanderson recruiting over.

 

Ed Ruth had already signed to wrestle for former PSU coach Troy Sunderland. 

[Zahnarzt]

4 hours ago, romesone said:

How in the world is Ed Ruth, a 3xer with the highest win % in PSU history, not in this lineup? 

Good point, but Ruth wrestled 74 and 84 which is currently manned by Starocci and Brooks, who will both likely become 4xer’s after this upcoming season.  Assuming both win their 4th title (which was my assumption when I created my all-time lineup), how can you leave either one off to include a 3xer?

[Eagle26]

9 hours ago, Zahnarzt said:

Amazing what you can find out on Google.  Doing some research, Oklahoma State’s all-time lineup is unbelievable in terms of # of NCAA titles.  
 

125 - Yorjiro Uetake - 3x (undefeated)

133 - Eric Guerrero - 3x

141 - John Smith - 2x

149 - Stanley Henson - 3x

157 - Pat Smith - 4x

165 - Alex Dieringer - 3x

174 - Chris Perry / Chris Pendleton (both 2x)

184 - Jake Rosholt - 3x

197 - AJ Ferrari - 1x (likely multiple time champ if he could keep it together)

HWT - Jimmy Jackson / Dick Hutton (both 3x)

 

What’s crazy is some of these guys go back to the era where they were only eligible for 3 titles.  So some of those 3x’ers would have likely been 4x’ers.  
 

Disappointing I couldn’t find anyone to slot into 197 better than Ferrari.  Geoff Baum deserves as mention.  Would have liked to get Johnny Hendricks or Jordan Oliver somewhere into the lineup by shuffling weights around. 

I think Rosholt was 197 for at least one or two of his titles. I’d put him at 197 over Ferrari. I’m not sure who you put in at 184 then?

[jchapman]

17 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I do actually. 

 

Kemp was incredible, but I don't think this version of Kemp could hang with O'Toole's scrambling. 

I still think Kemp's the better Wrestler...just like I think Babe Ruth is a better baseball player than...Joey Meyer, but if you're asking how 1970s/80s Kemp would do with O'Toole right now, I think O'Toole would really get him.

I understand your opinion and respectfully disagree.  We will never know, but it is fun to think about.

[mspart]

18 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

But I do think that Gable was much smarter than both Brands and Sanderson.

 

15 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Definitely disagree with that statement.  Gable's style is more simple.  This is not meant to be a knock on him.  Let's say more like Khabib's approach to MMA.  But all three men you listed have equal IQ's in terms of wrestling

Hey PortaJohn,  This is just my opinion.   Gable's style may have been more simple but his style of coaching was very mental.   I think Gable was more intuitive about his wrestlers than Brands.    Maybe Cael is there (based on performance).   Gable was able to get the most out of his wrestlers and that wasn't based only on his simple style.   It was his ability to give each individual what they needed to succeed mentally.   I won't say it was smarter, he just saw his wrestlers differently and knew them and worked them in a way they needed to be worked.   Brands is not there.   I see Brands as a ground and pound guy, devoid of nuance. 

mspart

[scourge165]

19 hours ago, mspart said:

Someone above was arguing that Cael has demonstrated he is much better than Gable at coaching, which is a stretch because they never actually coached against each other.   They are using the Brands as the equivalent of Gable.   Gable was tough  as anyone on the teams he coached could attest to.   But not only that, he was mentally into each wrestler and was able to pull the very best from each one.   The Brands are good but not that good.   Gable had an instinct that allowed him to mentally get inside their heads and then get the best out of them.   Cael is proving to be like that as well.   But I don't think we can make a comparison to Gable based on current results.  Not yet.   That said, Cael is the gold standard for college wrestling currently.  

mspart

I don't think that people are saying Cael is BETTER than Gable at coaching(certainly not "much better")...at least that's not how I've read it. I've read it that Cael has...evolved beyond where Gable and Iowa was. The sport has...which is to be expected, it's been 20+ years, but Cael in particular given his success. 

Cael's best teams haven't been better than Gable's but right now...in 2023, the opinion some had shared, myself included, is that Gable's ideology wouldn't work. He couldn't have Iowa guys who were so much more relentless until they broke their opponents, just beat them up and score repeatedly late in big matches. 

PSU guys don't gas and there were plenty of matches Iowa Wrestlers won vs much better technicians based on their gas tanks alone.

 

20 hours ago, mspart said:

Who on this team would lose?   I don't see McIlravy, Williams, Banach, Campbell, Banach, Brands, Lee losing to anyone from PSU.    It would be interesting but I think there is too much grit and technique with these folks.  

Iowa

125 Spencer Lee (3x champ)

133 Tom Brands (3x champ, Olympic gold)

141 Jeff McGinness (2x champ)

149 Incoln McIlravy (3x champ, Olympic bronze)

157 Jim Zalesky (3x champ)

165 Joe Williams (3x champ, Olympian)

174 Joe Scarpello (3x champ)

184 Ed Banach (3x champ, Olympic gold)

197 Chris Campbell (2x champ, Olympic bronze)

HWT Lou Banach (2x champ, Olympic gold)

Just my humble $0.02.

mspart

How much weight are you really putting on the Banach Gold Medals? They were the best when you took out most of the best Wrestlers from the field. It's not nothing. They made Olympic teams and they were better than who Japan and a few other good Wrestling countries had. They never won world medals and '84 is, in large part, the only success the 9 Gold or Silver medalists in Freestyle from '84 had.

So who's losing?

Given that Lou kinda tried to outpower guys, I'll take McCoy there.
at 197, Bo Nickal wins.
184-Brooks or Ruth could have.

174-I won't pretend to know and I think it's kinda silly to even have him on there. In reality, if we're having the 1948 version of Joe Scarpello on the roster, he's probably not competitive against most College Wrestlers. Nobody really has any idea what he looked like or how he wrestled. We know that after the NCAA didn't wrestle for a few years, he came in shortly after, had a couple of 11-0 or 15-0 seasons and won 3 titles. Is that enough to form any type of...well, informed opinion?

165-Joe Williams-Taylor
I have no clue. Williams is the first guy starting heavy and moving down who could have very quickly adjusted all the passing the ankle bullshit. He also Wrestled very close matches vs great Wrestlers. 

I would lean Taylor, but I'm a huge Wiliams fan.

 

157-Nolf? If you're just going by NCAA finishes, 2/1/1/1...but I'm not. But I think that needs to be mentioned. Wrestled vs some of the better '57 pounders ever, beat them and especially with I-Mar, he was on pace to be an All-Time great 4X Champ and then along came Nolf.

149-Again, I think this is a extremely tough match to call. I'll just qualify this by saying I thought Mcllravy was one of best ever...but a pretty compelling argument was made as to why he shouldn't be. He needed I think 3 TDs late and a stall call to beat Abas, went to OT with Bono. He won by wearing guys out(he was click with that boot scoot as well). But is he wearing Zain out?

141-I'd go with Ironside...and I'd say he should be ranked higher than Lee. 

133-Brands, again, clearly ranks higher than RBY(especially now). But if he wrestled his style vs RBY...

125-This one's beyond obvious.

 

This has been discussed at length, but if you're going by how Ed Banach or Chris Cambell wrestled their style vs how Brooks/Ruth/Nickal wrestled, I don't see how they win. If you're going by where they should rank historically...well, I'm still not sure about them, but it gets a little easier to pick who'd win at 133/141/149. Then it's Iowa guys. 

165 you have Taylor, a 2X Hodge winner and if we're going to count Freestyle accomplishments, a WC and an Olympic Champ when there was no Eastern Bloc boycott...which obviously also included Cuba, Iran, Poland...a LOT of the elite Wrestlers. 

 

Ultimately, I think it's fun to look at each teams best lineup's or wrestlers, but this is ALMOST always going to favor the most recent Wrestlers in an actual hypothetical matchup.

[scourge165]

36 minutes ago, mspart said:

 

Hey PortaJohn,  This is just my opinion.   Gable's style may have been more simple but his style of coaching was very mental.   I think Gable was more intuitive about his wrestlers than Brands.    Maybe Cael is there (based on performance).   Gable was able to get the most out of his wrestlers and that wasn't based only on his simple style.   It was his ability to give each individual what they needed to succeed mentally.   I won't say it was smarter, he just saw his wrestlers differently and knew them and worked them in a way they needed to be worked.   Brands is not there.   I see Brands as a ground and pound guy, devoid of nuance. 

mspart

This seems fair...and I'd say something both Cael and Brands have in common that very few coaches do(I'd argue Koll might have a similar ability). 

Brands and a guy like Ryan, they can recruit elite Wrestlers.

It seems like Cael(or maybe it's Cunningham, who knows) is looking for a type and Gable did have an incredible ability to get the best out of his athletes.

 

The Barry Davis story where he tried to leave before the B1Gs might be the best example.

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, jchapman said:

I understand your opinion and respectfully disagree.  We will never know, but it is fun to think about.

Fair enough.

I think of Kemp as one of the all-time greats. Top...5(at least in the 4 years eligibility era). 

Kemp went 2/1/1/1 and he lost on a referees decision despite getting the only takedown of the match, stopped Gable from making a comeback(at least that's how the story goes) and would have almost certainly won an Olympic Gold in '80.

 

But we just disagree on how significant the style of Wrestling is. To be clear, I think I'd have said the same about Carr, or Taylor or just a lot of the better '65 pounders in recent years....which is why I like to just compare guys vs their era and measure what they actually accomplished vs what another athlete has accomplished. 

I really hate saying I think this Wrestler would beat Lee Kemp. He's the greatest Wrestler in Wisconsin history and better than anyone FROM Wisconsin.

[jchapman]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

Fair enough.

I think of Kemp as one of the all-time greats. Top...5(at least in the 4 years eligibility era). 

Kemp went 2/1/1/1 and he lost on a referees decision despite getting the only takedown of the match, stopped Gable from making a comeback(at least that's how the story goes) and would have almost certainly won an Olympic Gold in '80.

 

But we just disagree on how significant the style of Wrestling is. To be clear, I think I'd have said the same about Carr, or Taylor or just a lot of the better '65 pounders in recent years....which is why I like to just compare guys vs their era and measure what they actually accomplished vs what another athlete has accomplished. 

I really hate saying I think this Wrestler would beat Lee Kemp. He's the greatest Wrestler in Wisconsin history and better than anyone FROM Wisconsin.

Ben Peterson could be in the conversation, but I agree.

[CHROMEBIRD]

 

Definitely disagree with that statement.  Gable's style is more simple.  This is not meant to be a knock on him.  Let's say more like Khabib's approach to MMA.  But all three men you listed have equal IQ's in terms of wrestling

Simple doesn't necessarily imply simplistic. As others have mentioned, Gable was tap into something and extract the most out of his wrestlers. You can also tell by the way he speaks that he thinks deeply about these things and put them into practice. I don't get that from Brands. He's a model Gable disciple and mimics what he's learned under DG but he has always come off more like a meathead than someone who spends time thinking through his coaching philsophy and style. That might help him relate to his guys, but that alone doesn't make him a good coach. As for PSU, I'm not convinced that Cael is on Gable's level as a coach, mostly because he doesn't say very much and it could be Cunningham doing the real work for all we know.

[PortaJohn]

4 hours ago, mspart said:

 

Hey PortaJohn,  This is just my opinion.   Gable's style may have been more simple but his style of coaching was very mental.   I think Gable was more intuitive about his wrestlers than Brands.    Maybe Cael is there (based on performance).   Gable was able to get the most out of his wrestlers and that wasn't based only on his simple style.   It was his ability to give each individual what they needed to succeed mentally.   I won't say it was smarter, he just saw his wrestlers differently and knew them and worked them in a way they needed to be worked.   Brands is not there.   I see Brands as a ground and pound guy, devoid of nuance. 

mspart

Yes I agree.  The mental genius of Gable as a wrestler himself and when coaching his guys was top notch.  I agree that Brands is not on the same level as Gable when it relates to  sports psychology.  But, I do believe Brands is as knowledgeable when it comes to technique, positioning, etc etc. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by PortaJohn

[PortaJohn]

1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Simple doesn't necessarily imply simplistic. As others have mentioned, Gable was tap into something and extract the most out of his wrestlers. You can also tell by the way he speaks that he thinks deeply about these things and put them into practice. I don't get that from Brands. He's a model Gable disciple and mimics what he's learned under DG but he has always come off more like a meathead than someone who spends time thinking through his coaching philsophy and style. That might help him relate to his guys, but that alone doesn't make him a good coach. As for PSU, I'm not convinced that Cael is on Gable's level as a coach, mostly because he doesn't say very much and it could be Cunningham doing the real work for all we know.

We'll just have to disagree on the Cael stuff.  I know people who have been in the practice room and everyone says the same thing.  What Cael is doing behind closed doors is unique and very different from every other program.  He's a genius as is Gable

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, scourge165 said:

This seems fair...and I'd say something both Cael and Brands have in common that very few coaches do(I'd argue Koll might have a similar ability). 

Brands and a guy like Ryan, they can recruit elite Wrestlers.

It seems like Cael(or maybe it's Cunningham, who knows) is looking for a type and Gable did have an incredible ability to get the best out of his athletes.

 

The Barry Davis story where he tried to leave before the B1Gs might be the best example.

Ahhh...damn, I meant Cael and GABLE, not Brands. I'm not sure Brands has that same ability that GABLE did.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Simple doesn't necessarily imply simplistic. As others have mentioned, Gable was tap into something and extract the most out of his wrestlers. You can also tell by the way he speaks that he thinks deeply about these things and put them into practice. I don't get that from Brands. He's a model Gable disciple and mimics what he's learned under DG but he has always come off more like a meathead than someone who spends time thinking through his coaching philsophy and style. That might help him relate to his guys, but that alone doesn't make him a good coach. As for PSU, I'm not convinced that Cael is on Gable's level as a coach, mostly because he doesn't say very much and it could be Cunningham doing the real work for all we know.

I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for.

There's also the way they talk about Cael. They hold Cunningham and in high esteem(Cody for that matter). But Cael was turning ISU around, then almost immediately turned Penn State into a powerhouse. 

 I think there's a case to be made that Iowa was more dominant than PSU. If you used the same scoring, I believe Iowa still has the most dominant 3-4 NCAA team Titles since ~1970. So I guess in that sense you could argue that Gable is on a higher level than Cael(I think you'd really be nit picking)...but Cael brought instant credibility. The type I think a, Burroughs, Dake or Taylor could bring, should either decide they want to get into coaching.

[mspart]

scourge,  I won't repeat everything you said in your very long and intense response,  thanks by the way, it is good reading.   But when I think of the old guys vs the new guys, I'm not thinking the techniques they had.   I'm thinking about the qualities that made them champions.  

Do you think if McIlravy was coming up today, he would be no champion?   With the mental toughness and desire for excellence, he would have figured it out just like he did a long time ago.   Same with most of these older guys.   Gable looks downright basic when he wrestled, but do you think a guy like him who HAD to win would have settled for anything less now as opposed to then?   That is the kind of comparison I have in my mind when I do these games.  

I just feel that the guys back then, if they came around now, would still be incredible like they were then because they would have found a way like they did then.

mspart

[mspart]

30 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for.

There's also the way they talk about Cael. They hold Cunningham and in high esteem(Cody for that matter). But Cael was turning ISU around, then almost immediately turned Penn State into a powerhouse. 

 I think there's a case to be made that Iowa was more dominant than PSU. If you used the same scoring, I believe Iowa still has the most dominant 3-4 NCAA team Titles since ~1970. So I guess in that sense you could argue that Gable is on a higher level than Cael(I think you'd really be nit picking)...but Cael brought instant credibility. The type I think a, Burroughs, Dake or Taylor could bring, should either decide they want to get into coaching.

Yes, I agree with this.  

mspart

[Threadkilla]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Simple doesn't necessarily imply simplistic. As others have mentioned, Gable was tap into something and extract the most out of his wrestlers. You can also tell by the way he speaks that he thinks deeply about these things and put them into practice. I don't get that from Brands. He's a model Gable disciple and mimics what he's learned under DG but he has always come off more like a meathead than someone who spends time thinking through his coaching philsophy and style. That might help him relate to his guys, but that alone doesn't make him a good coach. As for PSU, I'm not convinced that Cael is on Gable's level as a coach, mostly because he doesn't say very much and it could be Cunningham doing the real work for all we know.

You can't compare Gable and Sanderson as to who is superior coach, they are both transcendent figures in the sport.  If they were contemporaries you could do it.  But they are both amazing coaches.   Both got/get the best out of their wrestlers.   Why does Cael have to "say very much" ?  Penn State's results speak for themselves. Also, Caels wrestlers have mad respect for him. Listen to Bo or Q Wright or Max Dean who this year who said " Cael is a leader of men when our country really needs people like that"    Cael and Gable are the class of our sport.  

Gable said his HS coach would say "You win with Humility and Lose with Dignity,  but just don't lose damn it."     I think he owned that. 

People who don't like Cael are upset about his success.  All he does is win and he does it with humility. You can't find a negative sound bite from the guy.   Any negative about Cael gets come from his detractors.   Also, Cael has built teams and he also put together his amazing coaching staff.  People may not know who Casey Cunningham is if Cael hadn't made him part of his team.

[scourge165]

5 minutes ago, mspart said:

scourge,  I won't repeat everything you said in your very long and intense response,  thanks by the way, it is good reading.   But when I think of the old guys vs the new guys, I'm not thinking the techniques they had.   I'm thinking about the qualities that made them champions.  

Do you think if McIlravy was coming up today, he would be no champion?   With the mental toughness and desire for excellence, he would have figured it out just like he did a long time ago.   Same with most of these older guys.   Gable looks downright basic when he wrestled, but do you think a guy like him who HAD to win would have settled for anything less now as opposed to then?   That is the kind of comparison I have in my mind when I do these games.  

I just feel that the guys back then, if they came around now, would still be incredible like they were then because they would have found a way like they did then.

mspart

Of course Mcllravy would be great in today's Wrestling. I have no doubt about that. Same goes with all these guys. 

I don't know that he'd have the same level of success. I think you'd take a guy like Gerry Abas who was pretty clearly a superior technician and he'd most likely just be in better shape and hold onto a a match like the one Mcllravy had as a Freshmen. As I said, I got talked out of my position on Mcllravy a bit. I had him in the top 3-4 all time(again, starting in the "modern era when guys got to Wrestle for 4 years)...but an old coach/Wrestler made a persuasive argument that he wouldn't be able to just grind guys down and moved him down

So I'm really not firm in where I put Mcllravy beyond great. Is he top 5, 10...top 15? He was great and he'd be great if he was coming up now. And it should be obvious why athletes from the ~80s weren't as advanced in terms of technique. So many of them started Wrestling in HS or maybe 8th grade. Lee Kemp started as a Soph in Ohio after getting cut from Basketball, was like 11-8 as a JR and then won two state titles and was in the NCAA finals as a Freshmen.

So of course I think guys who were that physically gifted would have a lot of success today...

 

If you're comparing guys and how dominant they were in their era vs how dominant the PSU guys are now, then it tilts the board back a little more even. I'd still probably lean PSU, but it'd be close.

I don't think anyone can have too much confidence in these guesses though. 

Joe Williams vs David Taylor? Even using how they were vs their contemporaries, how do you envision that match going. If you're including FS accolades, I guess Taylor gets it, but again, Williams is a guy I have a ton of respect for. I was a kid went he was Wrestling and that guy looked like a comic book character. His waist looked like it was 28 inches, his chest about 48 and he just controlled guy. TJ Williams is right there as well. Those were ironically a couple guys from Iowa who DIDN'T seem like they pressed the pace as much as other Iowa greats.

You're talking about ALL TIME greats in almost every weight class...and both sides have guys not included. Barry Davis 3X Champ, 160-some wins? Mark Ironside, Randy Lewis? He was a fluke injury from being 2/1/1/1.  Carter Starocci could win 5 NCAA Titles and he's not on there and if he is, Ed Ruth who was 3/1/1/1 and about as dominant as you can be doing so isn't on the list for PSU.

I can go down these rabbit holes watching hours of certain guys or different Wrestling. In fact, when I reached out and asked the aforementioned older Wrestler about some of these guys, he sent me a bunch of videos and I watched about a dozen Randy Lewis matches. 

I have massive respect for all of these guys.

[mspart]

Well put!

mspart

[11986]

@scourge165 if you haven't already read it, try to find a copy of A Season On The Mat. It covers Gable's last year at Iowa so lots of Iowa guys that you and others have mentioned on this thread are in there. Good read. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, 11986 said:

@scourge165 if you haven't already read it, try to find a copy of A Season On The Mat. It covers Gable's last year at Iowa so lots of Iowa guys that you and others have mentioned on this thread are in there. Good read. 

Authored by Nolan Zavoral, I believe?