ionel Posted August 30 Posted August 30 26 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said: Oldest is back in school now…summer is dead to us in this house. Been there done that can't help you ... but there's beer in Tulsa. .
Gus Posted August 30 Posted August 30 I think it’s fair. You don’t often see undefeated champions that do not give up a single takedown. Until he is taken down and beaten, he has earned that spot. It’s going to be even tougher with the 149 field this year! 1
Hammerlock3 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 i only read the above post but vega #2 is completely legit. I don't think his style will iterate that well compared to robideau who seems more foundationally correct and has a lot of cleaning up to do, but despite the fact that his style might have a lower ceiling, ranking him lower than that now seems like the product of favoring past hype and future prospects over current results. "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
ionel Posted August 30 Posted August 30 9 minutes ago, Gus said: I think it’s fair. You don’t often see undefeated champions that do not give up a single takedown. Until he is taken down and beaten, he has earned that spot. It’s going to be even tougher with the 149 field this year! I worry for guys like Mendez ... is he gonna get any taller? Vega may still be a growing boy ... he's got his mother genes. .
boconnell Posted August 30 Posted August 30 4 hours ago, Simpleman424 said: Yea I didn’t want to watch that again but Vega was not the aggressor in that match. He reached for the legs and couple times on some half hearted attempts to use his awkward length but he was not in control. Jesse almost had it at the end of the third off a shot and the points in SV came off a Jesse double that switched to a single…that he finishes 9 times out of 10. It's wild how personal you take this one. Your comment saying Vega wasn't the aggressor is actually quoting me saying Vega wasn't aggressive in the match.
BruceyB Posted August 30 Posted August 30 12 hours ago, jackwebster said: Im just going to echo what bc and ionel said with a clarification: Vega did initiate the takedown by dictating what positions they would wrestle in. In fact, he dictated position the entire match after the first stall call. By frustrating Mendez's handfight for ~4 min, Vega eventually made Mendez shoot. Vega forced Mendez to shoot twice when it looked like that was the last thing Mendez wanted to do. I understand the sentiment, I just disagree on what constitutes "initiating offense." With your logic, anyone who is a counter wrestler looking for a reattack is "initiating offense" by doing nothing until their opponent becomes frustrated and takes a shot which is exactly what they wanted all along. That's obviously an exaggeration, but the point is the same. 1
Truzzcat Posted August 30 Posted August 30 Vega 9 total wins over AA's last year and 1 nat champ (did not give up a takedown) Barr 7 total wins over AA's last year (96% bonus rate) Vega has the best win by a pretty large margin and I do not think separation from the field is a great metric for pound for pound because the entire idea of it is excluding weight who the best wrestler is which to me makes quality wins a bit more important. By the same token Barr could have a 100% bonus rate the next two years but because his weight is not as strong never have the ability to move up which is flawed in my eyes as well it is just a very subjective ranking. As the worlds biggest Jax truther I will say I think they ranked him appropriately for now! 1 I am the personal property of VakAttack
jackwebster Posted August 30 Posted August 30 5 hours ago, BruceyB said: I understand the sentiment, I just disagree on what constitutes "initiating offense." With your logic, anyone who is a counter wrestler looking for a reattack is "initiating offense" by doing nothing until their opponent becomes frustrated and takes a shot which is exactly what they wanted all along. That's obviously an exaggeration, but the point is the same. Understood, and I agree that what Vega was doing was not "initiating offense" in any normal sense. Instead, he "gets to his positions" ... sometimes via rope-a dope, sometimes via slipping shots, sometimes via straight giving up his legs. Here's something to consider: the traditional Iowa-style mantra is "Impose your will." Your strategies and tactics dont change from match to match. Instead, you make the other guy change their style. I think this is a hallmark of the active/aggressive wrestler. The finals match is a good example. As Simpleman suggested, Mendez changed how he usually wrestles. He usually attacks the legs ("extremely well" ... and converts these attacks "9 out of 10 times). In this match, he did not. His first takedown attempt came via a vicious snap go behind. But, it looked like he felt something in that exchange that he didnt like bc he didn't do it again. Point is: Vega changed Mendez's pre-match plan and stymied his in-match adjustments. So, did Vega impose his will on Mendez? That's what I'm arguing. And judging by the fact that all Vega's matches look pretty similar, I think he imposes his will on everybody. We disagree on this point, and thats ok. I get and respect your pov. 1 1
Simpleman424 Posted August 30 Posted August 30 10 hours ago, boconnell said: It's wild how personal you take this one. Your comment saying Vega wasn't the aggressor is actually quoting me saying Vega wasn't aggressive in the match. Not personal, just felt it was a wild mischaracterization of the match as a whole when someone said to not indulge the fantasy that Jesse was anything but passive. Buckeye or not I’d say that wasn’t the case…I am far more balanced in my evaluations and takes than most I feel. (e.g. Peoples talk about the Buckeyes getting a trophy this year…not happening. At Best probably 6 at worst 10.) Point being I was replying to a couple post there and maybe we just disagree on how active hand fighting is etc etc but change swap the jerseys and I’d like the result but would still hate how it got there.
BruceyB Posted August 30 Posted August 30 7 hours ago, Truzzcat said: Vega 9 total wins over AA's last year and 1 nat champ (did not give up a takedown) Barr 7 total wins over AA's last year (96% bonus rate) Vega has the best win by a pretty large margin and I do not think separation from the field is a great metric for pound for pound because the entire idea of it is excluding weight who the best wrestler is which to me makes quality wins a bit more important. By the same token Barr could have a 100% bonus rate the next two years but because his weight is not as strong never have the ability to move up which is flawed in my eyes as well it is just a very subjective ranking. As the worlds biggest Jax truther I will say I think they ranked him appropriately for now! 197 was just a bad weight class last year and it's pretty hard to put much stock into anything Barr did to guys outside of Little and Novak. Gabe Arnold lost the the 6th place finisher at 174 last season and was able to go up 25 pounds and finish 7th at 197. That's really all that needs to be said about the quality and depth of the weight. I'm not taking anything away from Barr or his ability because he is very, very good. I'm just saying that he can TF his way through this field and I don't think that necessarily tells us much about his level relative to guys at more competitive weights. For example, if Barr decided to go down to 184 next season I do think he could win, but if you gave me the choice between Barr and the field, I would take the field with McEnelly, Sinclair, and Ferrari. 1
Gantry Posted August 30 Posted August 30 11 hours ago, Truzzcat said: Vega has the best win by a pretty large margin and I do not think separation from the field is a great metric for pound for pound because the entire idea of it is excluding weight who the best wrestler is which to me makes quality wins a bit more important. By the same token Barr could have a 100% bonus rate the next two years but because his weight is not as strong never have the ability to move up which is flawed in my eyes as well it is just a very subjective ranking. As the worlds biggest Jax truther I will say I think they ranked him appropriately for now! This is an excellent point that I didn't consider, domination is important but PFP has to weigh heavily on the caliber of opponents. Barr did his job but that was an incredibly weak 197 field last year. Is the best win of Barr's folkstyle career Jacob Cardenas?
BruceyB Posted August 30 Posted August 30 2 hours ago, Simpleman424 said: It feels wrong to have (4) 184lbs in the top 16… I haven't looked but off the top of my head I would probably rank something like.. 1. Mesenbrink 2. Forrest 3. Vega 3. Barr 4. Lilledahl 5. McEnelly 6. Davino 7. Seidel 8. Robideau 9. Duke 10. Blaze 11. Welsh 12. Ferrari 13. Sinclair 14. Henson 15. Van Ness 16. Stanich That's far from an exact order. I was more or less just numbering them to keep track. I wouldn't have any of the returning heavyweights, no 125s other than Lilledahl, only Stanich and Vega from last years 141 pounders, none of the 174s from last year, and only Barr from 197. I would take any of the big 4 at 184 before Minto or someone like Kueter. 2
Konquest Posted August 31 Posted August 31 5 hours ago, BruceyB said: I haven't looked but off the top of my head I would probably rank something like.. 1. Mesenbrink 2. Forrest 3. Vega 3. Barr 4. Lilledahl 5. McEnelly 6. Davino 7. Seidel 8. Robideau 9. Duke 10. Blaze 11. Welsh 12. Ferrari 13. Sinclair 14. Henson 15. Van Ness 16. Stanich That's far from an exact order. I was more or less just numbering them to keep track. I wouldn't have any of the returning heavyweights, no 125s other than Lilledahl, only Stanich and Vega from last years 141 pounders, none of the 174s from last year, and only Barr from 197. I would take any of the big 4 at 184 before Minto or someone like Kueter. You seem to have forgotten about a national champ and 2x finalist who beat both #8 and #9 last year...
BruceyB Posted August 31 Posted August 31 1 hour ago, Konquest said: You seem to have forgotten about a national champ and 2x finalist who beat both #8 and #9 last year... I don't think you belong on the P4P list if you were majored twice last year by guys that didn't make the list... I do not think Antrell Taylor is one of the top 20 guys in college wrestling. 1
MPhillips Posted August 31 Posted August 31 4 minutes ago, GimJustafan said: no knox @ 125 ? How could Knox even be considered for P4P... 1 .
Hammerlock3 Posted August 31 Posted August 31 11 hours ago, Konquest said: You seem to have forgotten about a national champ and 2x finalist who beat both #8 and #9 last year... Taylor has got to be the most under the radar national champ ever, I literally forgot he was a champ until I saw this post and I literally was thinking last week about what an under the radar finalist he is....part of this is just be being dumb but he really feels like an afterthought somehow. 1 "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
H82Lose Posted August 31 Posted August 31 On 8/29/2026 at 11:35 AM, MoveCountermove said: No worries, I always appreciate the discourse. Of the 24 wrestlers listed in the rankings, at his weight, I think Manville ends up rising the most spots, ie being the most mis-ranked of his weight. I think it’s a make or break year for him, and he has plenty of talent. I don’t think he will break through and AA, but if he’s on an expected trajectory, I could see him making it to blood rounds or something like that, 70% win rate or something. Better than 10 or so people on the list ahead of him (please, please don’t make me try to pick the 10). I put Frezza in a similar space, I think he could make a run if he stays consistent throughout - tall task for anyone LOVE IT, and thank you for the details. 1
GimJustafan Posted August 31 Posted August 31 1 hour ago, MPhillips said: How could Knox even be considered for P4P... not P4P - i might be the sharpest knife in the drawer but not the dullest either i meant in the list of top 24 at 125 1 Luke Lilledahl Penn State 3rd 2 Marc-Anthony McGowan Princeton 4th 3 Nico Provo Stanford 5th 4 Vincent Robinson Nebraska 4th 5 Eddie Ventresca Virginia Tech 5th 6 Troy Spratley OK State 5th 7 Jore Volk Minnesota 5th 8 Nic Bouzakis Ohio State 5th 9 Ezekiel Witt ND State 3rd 10 Nicolar Rivera Maryland 5th 11 Brendan McCrone North Carolina 4th 12 Trever Anderson UNI 5th 13 Tyler Chappell Pittsburgh 4th 14 Koda Holeman Cal Poly 5th 15 Conrad Hendriksen Oklahoma 4th 16 Brady Roark SD State 4th 17 Leo DeLuca Iowa 2nd 18 Mack Mauger Missouri 3rd 19 Isaiah Cortez Cornell 2nd 20 Dedrick Navarro Northwestern 4th 21 Max Gallagher Penn 4th 22 Sulayman Bah Columbia 4th 23 Andrew Binni Navy 3rd 24 Ayden Smith Iowa State 3rd
MPhillips Posted August 31 Posted August 31 7 minutes ago, GimJustafan said: not P4P - i might be the sharpest knife in the drawer but not the dullest either i meant in the list of top 24 at 125 Is this list somewhere in this thread? If not... you might be a spoon. .
GimJustafan Posted August 31 Posted August 31 33 minutes ago, MPhillips said: Is this list somewhere in this thread? If not... you might be a spoon. been called worse / it can be seen if you click on link from the opening post
MPhillips Posted August 31 Posted August 31 1 minute ago, GimJustafan said: been called worse Not with the same love. 1 .
ionel Posted August 31 Posted August 31 (edited) 2 hours ago, MPhillips said: How could Knox even be considered for P4P... ... punch for punch ... Edited August 31 by ionel 1 .
Braeden Simoneaux New York Military Academy, Louisiana Class of 2027 Committed to Wyoming Projected Weight: 184, 197
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