fishbane

I'm sure of that, but this is a little different because Gilman is a coach. I know Cael unretired at PSU, but it's not like he wrestled Quentin Wright at the Trials whilst trying to coach Wright onto the team. Or even if they had wreslted Quentin Wright would have been a pretty long shot to make the spot. Fix is among the favorites and a former world medalist at 61kg. Similarly, Varner may have been a NLWC coach when he unretired and tried to make the team ahead of the 2016 Olympics, but I don't think there were any strong contenders for that spot at NLWC at the time. Snyder was still in college at Ohio State at the time.

On FRL they discussed some tweet or social media post by Gilman questioning his retirement and whether it means he willl wrestle 61kg at the trials. JD mentioned the possibility of "someone else" at OSU doing this too seeming to acknowledge the Basch rumour, but no one on the show commented on it and the stuck to discussing Gilman. Wouldn't it be askward if Fix and Gilman wrestled at the trials?

I don't really agree with this. I follow what people are trying to say, but I think it cherry picks the data by removing wrestlers like Lawson, Kerkvliet and Mesenbrink from the analysis and turns a more general point into a PSU point. There is a selection bias to the transfers that go to big schools like PSU, Iowa, and Michigan. They are mostly not top 20 guys out of high school that made significant improvement in college and are transferring at a high point. The improvement left to make is the most difficult and there is plenty of room to go down. Still they get better on average Which school has done better with transfers? PSU: Sanderson, Long, Lawson, Cortez, Kuhn, Conel, Kerkvliet, Dean, Hildebrandt, Mesenbrink, Nagao, Truax. 11AAs, 2 Titles, 6 years of eligibility remaining at PSU Iowa: Lugo, DeSanto, Eierman, Teske, Swafford, Woods, Franek, Caliendo, Voinovich, Parco, Teemer, Buchanan, Joey Cruz 9AAs, 0 titles, 10 years of eligibility remaining at Iowa. OSU: Caldwell, White, Smith, Geer, Young, Spratley, Jamison, Olejnik, Amine, Fish, Hamiti, Hendrickson 7 AAs, 0 titles, 12 years of eligibility remaining at OSU. Michigan: Micic, Storr, Finesilver, Brucki, Suriano, Davison, Cannon, DeAugustino, Griffith, Saldate, Cardenas 6AAs, 1 title, 4 years of eligibility remaining at Michigan Bold= transferred after AA placement at previous institution Italic = transferred after national title at previous institution

That was their starting lineup at the start of the season. Those were the first 2 duals. Swafford was the starting 184. They overlooked him in handing out suspensions, maybe prosecutors didn't realize he was on the team or something since he was a backup last year, but he wrestled in the first two duals of the year and the Luther open, before Iowa wrestled Gabe Arnold up at 184 for the ISU dual. Then the error got corrected and he was out. Gabe Arnold's redshirt was never pulled so you can't really say he was the starter. Voinovich was also first choice to start the season. He wrestled in the first 4 duals including the ISU dual. Gotta think Iowa was trying to put their best lineup out there. Ultimately Rathjen beat him at the Salute, but he still wrestled in 7 duals. Do you know of another example of a two 5 team using 6 or more transfer wrestlers in a dual?

Iowa used this lineup for two duals last season. The topic says field a team and doesn't mention postseason. Swafford received an overlooked gambling ban and Voinovich lost his spot to Rathjen. 133 Brody Teske 141 Real Woods 149 Victor Voinovich 157 Jared Franek 165 Michael Caliendo 184 Brennan Swafford

No idear. Maybe Fish or Amine at 157 was what they had in mind. Seven transfers would be one more than Iowa fielded last year. Not sure if that makes for a top 5 team. Probably close.

On FRL today CP said OSU could have 7 transfers starting. Looking at wrestlestat this is what I pout together. I see 6 transfers starting. Who am I missing? 125: Spratley 133: Hughes/Witcraft 141: Jamison 149: Young 157: Travis 165: Amine/Fish 174: Hamiti 184: Plott 197: Surber 285: Hendrickson

I said more bonus points not total team points. He of course got more placement points in 2021-2023. The difference in placement points between 4th and 5th is 2, which will put him at a disadvantage in team point scoring in 2024 vs 2021-23. It's a full pinfall he needs to make up from placement points. All 4 years he either lost in the quarterfinals or the semifinals. From an advancement point perspective it is the same number of placement points (3) to the consi-semis 2 via either path. When losing in the semis it's 3 advancement points in the championship bracket. When losing in the quarters it's 2 in the championship and 1 in the consis, which comes from two consolation matches. He lost in the semis in 2021 and 2022 and the quarters in 2023 and 2024. Of course winning in the consi-semis 2 gives him an extra 0.5 advancement so losing to the 3rd place finisher a round earlier in 2024 cost Truax 0.5 advancement and 2 placement points. Truax would need to make up a 2.5 point deficit in bonus to score more total points. In 2021 he score 1.5 bonus points, 2022 0 bonus points, 2023 1 bonus point, and 2024 2.5 bonus points. He had 1 more match in 2023 and 2024 when he lost in the quarters, but didn't score bonus points in either R12 match. As you pointed out he had the benefit of the 3 point TD in 2024 which gave him an advantage over other years.

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How so? He was 4th at Cal Poly in 2023 and 5th at PSU in 2024. In 2023 he lost to the 2nd place finisher Tanner Sloan and the 3rd place finisher Rocky Elam. In 2024 he lost to the 2nd place finisher Dustin Plott and the 3rd place finisher Trey Munoz. There is no wrestle off between 4th and 5th at NCAAs. So there is nothing to distinguish the placements. He also scored more bonus points at NCAAs in 2024 than in 2023 or 2022 or 2021 when he finished 4th. He had also lost to Trey Munoz back in 2022 whilst at Cal Poly. What makes it objectively worse? Because the brackets were configured a little different and he wrestled the 3rd place finisher earlier? I don't see it. Truax also changed weights when the transferred to PSU. I'd have to think if 184 was his best weight he would have been there in 2023 at Cal Poly. I'm sure the goal was to win an individual national title at PSU, but he also won a team title and to be part of that had to be at 184. Sanderson didn't go from 7th to 6th he went 7th (ISU)->DNP (ISU)->6th (PSU). If he had been 7th the year before transferring to PSU it would be inconsistent, but that's not what happened. Long went from 2nd to 3rd and that's similar to 4th/5th with Truax there is no wrestle off for true second at NCAAs. Moreover the NCAA placement was the only thing that was worse between those seasons. 2010 ISU: 27-7, 2nd Big 12s, 2nd NCAAs at 125 2011 PSU: 20-2, 1st Big Tens, 3rd NCAAs at 133 So he had a better regular season record, won a conference title and was 1 spot worse at NCAAs all at a higher weight. He also scored more team points at NCAAs in 2011 than in 2010. In my opinion there is a better case for him being improved in 2011 than worse.

My mistake. I stand corrected he has teched the exact same number of wrestlers still enrolled in high school as Max Dean.

And no wins. A ton of information in that there data. It would depend on context. Context was, Gabe typo notwithstanding, Saying Spencer Lee "got worse" between 2021 NCAAs and 2023 NCAAs "makes as much sense as saying Max Dean 'got worse' at PSU." I don't think Spencer Lee got worse at wrestling between 2021 NCAAs and 2023 NCAAs. I also think Max Dean improved at wrestling at wrestling at PSU. A statement contradicting either would make no sense to me. And I am not following where you are going. How exactly is all this talk of records vs high school wrestlers relevant in the context I mentioned Dean and Lee?

Spencer Lee is 0-0 against wrestlers currently enrolled in high school since graduating high school himself. What exactly does that mean?

Max Dean didn't qualify for the 2021 OTT whilst at Cornell. After moving to Happy Valley he did.

The same way I can accurately say David Taylor improved at PSU. I don't see how I cherry picked anything. I literally listed every transfer that made the lineup. It's too difficult to tell if Kurt McHenry improved when he was never a starter at Michigan and never a starter at PSU. You and other don't want to count improvements of Lawson, Mesenbrink, Kerkvliet, etc. I already explained why I said Dean and Sanderson were improved at PSU. Can you not follow the line of thinking at all? Sanderson 2009 at ISU 20-9, 4th Big 12, 2-2 DNP NCAAs. 2010 at PSU 32-7, Big Ten Champ, 6th NCAAs. Max Dean at Cornell 54-12, EIWA Champ, 8th and 2nd at NCAAs, failed to qualify for the 2021 OTTs. At PSU 48-6, Big Ten champ, NCAA Champ, NCAA 7th place, qualified for the 2024 OTTs.

That is the point. Some people were saying all these transfers into PSU "got worse." I put it in quotes. They did not. There was a reason for that. Truax changing weights and his NCAA performance dropping from 4th to 5th is not what I would call getting worse. Some disagree. Suriano was also missing in 2021, but perhaps you didn't mention him because his addition offset Lee's absence. I think Hildebrandt had a good tournament in 2021, but there was also an element of good fortunate at play. Some of the best guys sat out and he wrestled an abbreviated MAC-only schedule. He entered NCAAs undefeated (10-0) and in that field it got him the 4 seed. He made the semis and the best wrestler he had to beat to get there was Brody Teske, which he did in OT. Teske wrestled an abbreviated Big 12-only schedule to a 12-1 record which was good enough for the 5th seed. Teske's only regular season loss was to Courtney (ASU) and his best win was over Mastrogiovanni (OSU). The 4 and 5 seeds typically enter NCAAs with more impressive wins than Mastrogiovanni (21 seed) and Noah Surtin (18 seed). Hildebrandt went on to beat Latona in the consi semis 5-4 and ultimately finished 4th. His win over Latona that year at NCAAs is the only time in his entire career he beat an AA after they had AAed (Latona was guaranteed top 6 finish at the time of the match). It was just a weird year and Hildebrandt made the most of it. If Hildebrandt had wrestled a Big Ten schedule in 2021 he isn't the 4 seed. This is exactly what happened the next year at PSU. He also had some bad luck with the draw. He drew Noto in the first round and then would have had to beat Teske, McKee and Cardinale on the trot to make the podium. So 4th in 2021 to 1-2 in 2022 was caused by 1) a weaker field, 2) good luck with the draw from the MAC only schedule in 2021 vs Big Ten schedule and bad luck with the draw in 2022, and 3) parity - beating Teske in OT in 2021 and losing to him in 2022. Hildebrandt wasn't noticeable worse at PSU. I did this to prove a point. This too. It makes as much sense as saying Gabe Dean "got worse" at PSU.

No idear. Unlike Buchanan, Teemer, and Angelo Ferrari, he isn't in the Iowa directory. https://iam.uiowa.edu/whitepages/search/

Perhaps they had a slightly worse result at NCAAs than the best result at their previous institution, but it isn't the whole picture. I also think the assessment that they "got worse" is false for a majority of them. Look at Hildebrandt for example. He was 4th in 2021 and DNPed at PSU in 2022. 125lbs at the 2021 NCAA tournament had to be one of the weakest weights in recent memory. You could take almost any place winner in that bracket and they failed to place higher in subsequent seasons. Spencer Lee, Brandon Courtney, Pat McKee, Drew Hildebrandt, Sam Latona, Taylor LaMont - they all "got worse." Hildebrandt only lost five matches at PSU - Suriano, McKee, DeAugustino, Noto, and Teske. McKee and DeAugustino he lost those guys and never beat them at CMU. Suriano and Noto are probably better than peak CMU Hildebrandt. The argument that he got worse essentials is he lost to Teske at NCAAs in 2022 and beat him in OT in 2021. If he regressed at PSU it wasn't by much.

I think he just repeated Sonnen's take from the bad guy's FRL appearance that same week.

Jenkins improved at ASU, but is a close call like Sanderson. Everyone is pointing how Cael Sanderson was Cyler Sanderson erstwhile coach at ISU. Berge transferred from Sanderson back to Sanderson too. PSU->SDSU->PSU.

Jimmy Lawson wasn't placing at NCAAs out of high school. He definitely improved at PSU. I don't know what your are getting at. Admittedly Long, Dean, Truax, and Sanderson were close calls. Long and Truax each placed one spot lower at PSU. Long had a better record, better seed, and won a conference title at PSU. It seemed like it was too close to call to me. Truax is a better case for regression. He was 4th thrice at Cal Poly and 5th at PSU. He also had more losses, but that could be higher strength of schedule in the Big Ten. It would really be picking nits to say he regressed. Putting Clyer in the improved pile was close. His best season at ISU was very similar to his single season at PSU. I would have had him at no change if that had been the season before he arrived at PSU, but he transferred after his junior year. That season he was 20-9 and 2-2 at NCAAs. The next year he was 32-7, Big Ten Champ, and 6th. The more compelling case why he shouldn't be included in an analysis of PSU transfers is of course that Sanderson was his previous coach. Dean I think is pretty clearly in the improved at PSU group. He was 8th and 2nd at Cornell and 1st and 7th at PSU and was up a weight at PSU. He also lost more matches in his best season at Cornell than his entire time in Happy Valley.

It probably comes down to small numbers. Plenty of transfers have improved at PSU under Cael. I think below is the list of transfers that made the starting lineup during his tenure. I think the only ones that definitively were worse at PSU were Conel, Hildebrandt, and Nagao. Nagao still has time to turn things around. Cyler Sanderson - Best finish at ISU was 7th. At PSU he was Big Ten champ and finished 6th. Improved. Andrew Long - Was a national runner up at ISU. He was 3rd at PSU and has a slightly better record. No change. Jimmy Lawson - 1x AA finishing 6th as a senior. Improved. Jered Cortez - Similar performance as Illinois. No change. Carson Kuhn - Similar performance. No change. Brady Berge - Similar performance. No change. Kyle Conel - 3rd place finish at the year before was an anomaly. Injured. Worse at PSU. Greg Kerkvliet - National Champ. Improved. Max Dean - National Champ. Improved. Drew Hildebrandt - Better at CMU. Worse at PSU. Mitchel Messenbrink - National runner-up. Improved. Aaron Nagao - better at MN, but has two years left. Worse at PSU. Bernie Truax - 4th 3x at Cal Poly. 5th at PSU. No change.

Iowa already did this for at least two duals last season. Against Cal Baptist and Oregon State they wrestled 133 Brody Teske 141 Real Woods 149 Victor Voinovich 157 Jared Franek 165 Michael Caliendo 184 Brennan Swafford All six were transfers. By the end of the season Voinovich lost his spot to Rathjen and Swafford was assessed a gambling ban that had been overlooked. At time throughout the year Schriever wrestled in favor over Teske, but Teske had regained the spot by Big Tens.

It's more clever than his attempt to blame Glazier and the fans in his interview with Clash of Combat immediately after the Salute.

He seems to be embracing it, which given his position may be his best play. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-K--U3JSr6/?igsh=MWlheGdleGtuNzRlOQ==