fishbane

This is what I come up with 1997 Iowa scored two ways When rescoring under 2024 rules I did not attempt to adjust the bout scoring for the 3pt TD or the new NF rules. Adjustments were made removing bye points, placement points, and to change 1 pt match terminations (TF w/o NF) to 1.5 point TF. This is what I come up with PSU For 1997 team scoring I added bye points, adjusted placement points to the 1997 schedule, and changed any TF that did not feature NF from a 1.5 point TF to a 1 point MT. This effected both TFs bye Levi Haines, 1 for Mesenbrink, 2 for Brooks, and 1 for Kerkvliet. It should be noted that in 2024 the qualifiers are distributed equally allowing for more weights with round of 64 byes than in 1997. In 1997 only 5 weights had byes. Assuming the same 5 weights (with 7 lbs allowance) had the byes, then PSU would have 4.5 bye points instead of 9 making the total 171 or 1 more than Iowa. For the 1997 Team/Bout Scoring I attempted to rescore the 2024 bouts assigning 2 points for each TD and NF points as in 1997. I only did this for bouts where PSU scored bonus points as doing this could change W/L outcomes or make a match tied. Doing this also makes any bout with a 15 point difference into less than a 15 point difference unless those points were scored w/o any NF3, NF4, or TD3. That didn't happen, but there were only 2 TF that were not downgraded to a MT. These were scored by Nagao and Truax. Nagao's match ended with a 15 point differential in the second period and Truax's with 1:50 left in the 3rd. I gave them both benefit of the doubt and said they would have got the tech anyway and kept them at 1.5 team points. Kasak had two MDs downgraded to Dec, Haines had 1, Mesenbrink had 2, and Kerkvliet also had 2. After these adjustments PSU has 168.5 team points, but that is with equally distributed byes. With a 1997 by distribution they would only have 4.5 bye points making the total 164. I don't know if the bonus points with bout rescoring is that meaningful. Take for example the Kasak Roberts consolation match. This match was wrestled with TD3, NF3, and NF4. The final score was 14-5 Kasak. Kasak scored 1 TD3, 1 NF3, and 1NF 4, whilst Roberts scored 1 TD3. Under 1997 rules that would make the final 11-4 making it a dec, but is that really what would have happened? Maybe Kasak pushes to score more to get the MD or maybe he fights hard to not give up that TD with 0:24 left in the match?

Oh interesting. I guess the McIlravy matches must be MT instead of TF. I had thought possibly a team point had been deducted as that wouldn't show up in the brackets, but given what was in the other thread the McIlravy explanation is likely it. This would update my 1997 table to look like this And 2024 scoring to look like this After changing McIlravy's TF to MT, I'm getting 170 for 1997 Iowa using 1997 scoring, but I get 172 for 1997 Iowa using 2024 scoring. I think where we are different is the Joe Williams vs Tivon Able MT. I think you forgot to make it a TF in 2024 scoring. I looked at the UNI website you references and that also has that as a 22-7 7:00 match termination.

I tried doing this and I'm messing something up. I get Iowa's 1997 total as 171 which is off by 1 and 172 when adjusting for scoring differences. This is the scoring as I understand it from 1997. I get 171, but that is off by 1 This is rescored with 2024 scoring. I get 172 total. The bye points (-4.5) are removed. Joe Williams's match termination/4 point TF win over Abel is now worth 2.5 (+0.5). The placement points go up for Gilliss (+3) and Uker (+2). Making a net 1 point gain. What do I have wrong?

If you watch his NCAA finals match (Link) midway through the second period at about 6:40 in the video the broadcast team says he was a junior college champion at Lassen Community College in CA. Not sure if he is subject to the same exception at MSU as Williams was at Iowa...

Yes those were the transfers I was talking about. All those matches were in their redshirt year and would have been unattached. These are similar to the matches Pucillo wrestled in redshirt. The VT wrestlers didn't use eligibility that year at VT it was the next year at Iowa where eligibility was used. Similar to Pucillo at Hofstra. What's different with Mesenbrink is that he wrestled in two dual at Cal Baptist. True freshman can now wrestle in 5 events attached. So those duals count on his official record even though he didn't use any eligibility in wrestling them. Nor at least that's my understanding of the situation.

This is also kind of true for the VT transfers. Never wrestled in a VT singlet and didn't use eligibility at VT, but lost eligibility at Iowa. I think the criteria WKN used was if the transfer cost any eligibility at all they didn't make the squint list. In the future there might possibly be an exception named Mitchell Mesenbrink. He did a redshirt year at Cal Baptist and then transferred to PSU. He has 4 years to use at PSU, but he actually wrestled in a couple duals for Cal Baptist last year. The change to the freshman redshirt rules allowed for it. If he goes on to win a title will WKN put him in the squint list?

But the second transfer fits both the first criteria and the second criteria.

Shouldn't Suriano be on the first list twice? Once PSU->Rutgers and once Rutgers->Michigan?

I'm squinting and I can't see the difference between Jesse Delgado and Mike Pucillo.

Hofstra. He was recruited by Tom Ryan there and followed him to Ohio State. https://gohofstra.com/sports/wrestling/roster/mike-pucillo/347

This could be a standard that has evolved over time. It was mentioned earlier that Wade Schalles was a transfer. If I recall correctly that was because he took summer classes somewhere (ESU?) for a week before going to Clarion that cost him a trip to NCAAs, but not a year of competition somehow. Now it is not uncommon for wrestlers to grey shirt for a year at an RTC or the OTC. Simultaneously, they might take part time classes to make progress academically whilst avoiding starting the NCAA eligibility clock. They might get transfer credit for the courses that they took, but aren't usually considered a transfer student because they were never a full time student and never matriculated. So we might say Schalles is a transfer and lost 1 NCAA tournament, but maybe a future Cornell wrestler moved to Ithaca in June and took classes part time at TC3 before matriculating at Cornell in and fall and he is not a transfer. Since Schalles was allegedly there for only a week I can't imagine he received any transfer credit at Clarion for whatever coursework he took. I suppose today a wrestler could grey shirt and take classes in the Summer, Fall, Spring, and Summer semesters at TC3 and end up with a year of transfer credit before finally attending Cornell in the Fall and not be a transfer. But I dunno the full details maybe Schalles registered for a full coarse load and then withdrew after a week which would be a problem today. I think going to a different school for graduate school is only considered a transfer because of athletics. If a non-athlete got a bachelors degree at one institution and then went to grad school/law school/med school at a different institution it is not a transfer. I have never heard anyone refer to that as a transfer for a non-athlete. Academically it isn't a transfer. It's different going from a 2 year school to a 4 year school because that is still an academic transfer - the student gets transfer credit and doesn't have to take as many classes.

Well the Brockport position is open again and it has a listed minimum salary of $60,773. (https://careers.pageuppeople.com/788/cw/en-us/job/496823/head-wrestling-coach-fulltime) Your aren't going to persuade anyone to move to Brockport, NY for $20k/year, but a lot of coaching jobs in D3 are like this. They are considered part time positions and they can only really get someone who already lives/works in the area and has another job to do it long term. Some coaches have full time jobs but have to teach activities/gym classes or do something else in addition to coaching. Brockport's former coach Murray had a pretty nice gig as far a D3 wrestling goes. He was also a professor of physical education, so he taught a couple classes/semester and coached. It was a full time position and he had been there for 50 years. He was paid $130k and was among the top 30 earners at the college. I am sure community colleges kind of view sports coaches like they do part time faculty. It's a part time position like teaching a single class. Might be around $10k.

He was there for 1 year was a full time student and used 1 year of competition. He then transferred to Iowa where he redshirted his first season.

Whoops I was off one on the job listing. There are two salary schedules on the UB website (link) that have an SL4. One is the UUP Professional and the other is the UUP Professional College. The Professional College SL4($50,862-$97,012) is a bit lower than the Professional SL4 ($60,773-$116,187) for 2023-24. Both are a little lower than your quoted range. This job just had "competitive" for the range which was different from the other professional job listings I looked at. I think the new NYS transparency law only applies to private employers, so they may not be required to give a range.

I don't think anyone is going with you on this. I could kind of see your point if he went to a 2 year school in the same system and then transferred. An example might be if he went to Penn State-Brandywine for a year and then transferred to main campus in University Park. If you said that's not a real transfer, then I would probably still say it's a transfer, but I would see your point. Williams wrestled for a junior college in California. This was not an affiliate of Iowa. It was not even a community college in the same state. He was a full time student and represented them on the wrestling mat.

Paul Keysaw Bloomsburg->Bakersfield John Azevedo OSU->Bakersfield Dan Cuestas Cal Poly->Bakersfield Adam Cuestas Oregon->Bakersfield Clar Anderson Auburn->OSU Scott Lynch Navy->PSU David Lee Stanford->Wisconsin A few of the Bakersfield guys have been mentioned already. I thought it was interesting how many transfer champions they had. Is 4 the most? All the PSU fans missed Lynch. Does anyone know if Kelvin Jackson transferred to MSU?

How about Kevin Randleman (RIP)? He lost in the final as a freshman, won as a sophomore, won as a junior, then flunked out of Ohio State and transferred to Lindenwood. Another Sandusky native Charlie Jones won an NCAA title representing Purdue in 1992 at the age of 28. He had formerly served in the Air Force before attending Olivet-Nazarene for two years and eventually transferring too Purdue.

I do not believe he did even with an associates. He was only there for two years. Another transfer NCAA champ from his high school - Tony Davis.

Job posting is up on the website. No salary range given. I thought that was required under NYS law. https://www.ubjobs.buffalo.edu/postings/49389

I don't follow the logic. Also, did you forget that he wrestled at LCC? He used eligibility there and he didn't have to do that to get into Iowa. I understand the perspective some people have where if an individual never wrestled for the other school it's not considered a "transfer." What rule would you be applying here? If your application gets rejected from the school you want to attend, you can wrestle 1 season at a different school and it isn't a "transfer?"

Jarod King, Mike Pucillo, Brock Lesnar, Mark Coleman

TJ Williams

I see this as kind of a combination of my 2) and 3) though my list wasn't mean to be exhaustive. So for point two I think that is a big component of the Brands's success. I don't know that they do it better than Sanderson/PSU and I would question whether it's a practical route to a championship to start with recruiting that is 2 notches below PSU and hope to get more out of them than Sanderson can get out of his guys. In 2021, Iowa's only championship since 2010, they kind of used all three components combining some really good recruits combined with some transfers. Lee, DeSanto, Eierman, Murin, Young, Marinelli, Kemmerer, Assad, Warner, Cassioppi. The only guys in the lineup that were not top 25 recruits were Eierman (37) who transferred in already a 3x AA, Murin (44), and Assad (29). Jordan Burroughs was barely a top 100 recruit coming out of high school and he is perhaps the greatest American wrestler of all time. Certainly very good wrestlers get missed or develop later, but there is a correlation. Here is a list of every wrestler Tom Brands has coached to a national title Mark Perry (2, OK/NJ), Brent Metcalf (2, Mi), Jay Borschel (IA), Matt McDonough (2, IA), Derek St. John (IA), Tony Ramos (IL), Cory Clark (IA), Spencer Lee (3, PA). All of them were top 25 recruits out of high school. If we expand it to Hawkeyes Tom Brands has coached to the an NCAA final the list would look like this Mark Perry (OK/NJ), Joey Slaton (IA), Brent Metcalf (Mi), Dan Dennis (IL), Montell Marion (IA), Jay Borschel (IA), Matt McDonough (IA), Derek St. John (IA), Tony Ramos (IL), Cory Clark (IA), Thomas Gilman (IA/NE), Brandon Sorenson (IA), Spencer Lee (PA), Jaydin Eierman (MO), Michael Kemmerer (PA), Jacob Warner (IL), Real Woods (IL), Drake Ayala (IA). Dennis and Marion are the only guys who were not top 100 recruits out of high school. Brands certainly got a lot out of them, but he did not recognize them as having chips on their shoulder or being better than their ranking in the recruiting process. They were recruited by his predecessor, Zalesky. The only others that were not top 25 recruits out of high school were Sorenson (27) and Eierman (37). Sorenson was barely outside the top 25 and whist Eierman was a bit farther down he transferred to Iowa after placing 3rd NCAAs. Indeed. Everyone does moneyball as they are all working with limited resources to make the best team possible and all are still limited to 9.9 scholarships. Top three was in reference to recruiting and not results at NCAAs. On average Iowa has been second best at NCAAs during Brands's tenure. I never said Brands should be fired and I think Zalesky deserves more credit than he receives. If Iowa/Brands fails to win a title next season that will give Iowa 1 title in the past 15 years. That is the same success rate Tommy Chesbro had at OSU when he was let go and he was coming off consecutive 2nd place finishes to go along with Big 8 titles and undefeated dual seasons. The expectations are high at Iowa and OSU.

I was responding to these statements about Tom Brands's recruiting and how he appeals to recruits. His recruiting had not been top notch the past 10 or so years. The numbers show this. You are correct that his teams have outperformed some rivals that out recruit him. There are a few possible reasons for this The Brandses have found inefficiencies in the recruiting market and know which recruits will perform best better than the rankers do. This is sort of a Moneyball approach. They find the wrestlers that the rankers under value and target them. Their true rank is actually higher than represented in the Big Board The Brandses are able to get more out of a given wrestler than their rivals. Essentially they get more out of less They are able to coach guys that are outside the top 25 recruits into top 10 guys and AAs better than their rivals are able to coach top 25 guys into AAs. The Brandses are able to get guys to transfer to Iowa that they can coach to AA finishes to supplement their recruiting thus overcoming the disadvantage. Probably all apply in some cases, but they all represent and inefficiency except 1. If the Brandses can get more out of top 50 guys than their peers than Iowa would do even better if they started with more top 25 guys. And for #3 if they were able to recruit those transfers out of high school they would get more out of them. The significant transfers to Iowa in recent years includes Caliendo, DeSanto, Eierman, Franek, Lugo, Teske, and Woods who all had success at their previous institutions. This means Iowa missed out on those productive years when they were wrestling elsewhere and possibly had to pay a premium either in scholarship or NIL $ to recruit them. The value of an AA transfer is higher than a top 25 recruit out of high school. Reason number 1 is smart management, but it is a small market strategy. Iowa is one of the most storied programs with the largest resources in NCAA wrestling if they are forced to go after second tier recruits because PSU, OSU, and Ohio State get their pick of the best guys that's kind of an issue. When asked "How do you make gains in the Big Ten and keep pushing up the ladder?" Illinois assistant coach Jeremey Hunter said "It comes down to recruiting. You gotta have the best guys." So whilst recruiting is not the final measure of success it is a big part of it and one where Iowa has fallen a bit behind the top three. That puts them at a disadvantage out of the gate. I think the fact that the state of Iowa had their best graduating class of past 25 years in 2005 and Zalesky only managed to recruit only one of them (Morningstar) to Iowa whist Brands got three to go to Virginia Tech (Borschel, Slaton, and LeClere) and Sanderson got one (Mueller) to go to ISU as part the #1 recruiting class (Varner, Gallick, Sanderson, Fanthorpe, and Zabriskie) was a big part of why he was let go. He was being out recruiting by in state rival ISU and his former assistant Brands.

Easy to say but hard to execute. Cody himself was unable to duplicate it. I think his 5th place finish at American was better than he managed at OU.