scourge165

I'm starting to see why the US has slipped so far in education...

Ok...I ACTUALLY provided facts. Dan Gable didn't know who Tom Ryan was. Tom Ryan showed up at Iowa as a walk on to Wrestle for Gable and ended up in the National Finals. And that you showed me a list of All-American's and Royce Alger wasn't on it simply only tells me that one list...is a comically bad one. Again, verbal with UNI for a full scholarship. Iowa shows up with 40% 15 minutes before signing day...before MIDNIGHT on signing day with the UNI coach in the driveway, and Alger flips to Iowa. That should all you need to know. But for some strange reason, you need it to have been tougher for Iowa? I don't know. I'm still waiting for those class rankings you promised. All you did was show the AA teams by weight and the first two I looked at had Iowa Wrestlers in there and absolutely ZERO class rankings.

Ok...so lets say Royce Alger wasn't a top recruit. He had two D1 coaches at his house 15 minutes before Midnight and Dan Gable thought he was a big enough recruit to personally go there and try and convince him to flip from UNI to Iowa...and he did it. He didn't even have to recruit Brinzer or Ryan(I didn't know he didn't recruit Brinzer, just taking your word on that one).

Dude...you're starting to sound like LBJ here. What are you talking about?

In June 1989, Ryan turned his back on a scholarship and drove from New York to Iowa. He entered the wrestling room as a hopeful walk-on for the Hawkeyes. "Who are you?" Gable asked. "I'm Tom. I go to Syracuse, but I'm going to transfer here," Ryan replied. "Well," said Gable, "you're not going to get any better sitting there." Gable told Ryan to work out with twin brothers Troy and Terry Steiner, both national champs. https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/2015/12/17/ohio-state-wrestling-coach-tom/23771442007/ You can highly doubt it, but it's a pretty well known story for an Iowa fan to have never heard. The rest of this..."they weren't even 4Xers." So what? They were two sport starts...right. Instead of the famous specialization that went on in the 1980s? It kinda is though...with all due deference to Wrestling USA Magazine, I stand behind all my points and I think you're just guessing at some of yours. TJ Williams...committed when Gable was the coach. TJ Williams committed to Gable because he saw the success they had and he wanted to have that same type of success. That he's a JUCO is a ridiculous response to me. So what? Take Messenbrink and Kerkvliet off your lists if you're going to dismiss someone because they didn't committ to the school immediately out of College.

I don't want to take this totally off topic, but this is like a "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Ok...sure. But the gun also helps. Isn't Religion QUITE often the reason FOR the people killing people? Certainly in a historical sense, but even today...it's a pretty big deal. Things are quite a bit different now though. A cartoon insulting Jesus would have gotten you killed 500 years ago...now it's called Family Guy(or the Simpsons or Ricky and Marty or whatever it is).

And this came from Mitchell Messenbrink you say?

What site are you using here? That Royce Alger isn't on there is telling. Gable certainly considered him a top recruit, as did ISU. I think this is an apples to oranges thing, but even with that, Barry Davis, Ed and Lou Banach, TJ Williams, these were all some of the best recruits in the Country and they all wanted to go to Iowa. Didn't Ryan just show up at Iowa and tell Gable he wanted to come out for the team? That's a pretty nice guy to just show up at your doorstep and ask to come Wrestle for you. You have actual Wrestling showcases now that you didn't have in the whole time Gable was there, but he was definitely getting premiere talent. You're comparing era's of Wrestling that were just WAY too different, but at a time when there was less Wrestling coverage than there is now, not only do I not buy the premise that Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers, but I also don't get why this is a point of contention. BOTH programs built themselves into the type of powerhouse that the best athletes WANTED to Wrestle at.

We'll see. It's really just 2 or 3 Wrestlers to be a top 10 team. Last time I can recall Edinboro being a top 10 team would PROBABLY be when they had King at '65, Dubuque at '25 and I'm guessing maybe 2 other AAs. That's still well within reach. There HAVE been teams this dominant before. PSU has yet to put together a run like Iowa did in '83 or '97(though I think they're going to). I don't know how Cornell is a powerhouse given the disadvantages they have...or how PSU wasn't ALWAYS dominant. It's really no different than CFB, but there's a larger pool of teams that can win it year to year. I know a HS coach who has won multiple State Titles and he has his teams celebrate each Conference Championship(they went like...14 years and 120 some duels without losing) and every Regional Title(probably won more of those than Conf Titles) because he didn't want his kids thinking the only thing worth celebrating was a State Title. I think a good coach applies that College. You celebrate an ACC, Ivy, B12, MAC title, celebrate NQs. We take more of a Macro view, but a really close friend of mine had a kid win a D2 Title. That was a monumental accomplishment. So it doesn't have to be JUST about NCAA Team Titles...even if that's what we're going to focus on here on the boards. If that was the case, people would have been in awe the last decade. PSU APPEARS to be reaching a whole other level. They're competing against themselves at this point and it looks like they're kicking their own ass from the last decade.

First, lets start by pointing out that it's not accurate to say Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers just as PSU is now and they just developed them. They were getting many of the best as well and they were also using any means(legal) to them. Again, they were running camps, paying the established stars like the Brands(the guys who you'd go to the camp for beyond just the obvious that it was a Gable camp) and he'd pay them cash(again, legally) so they could pay their own tuition, they'd come off scholarship and then he'd be able to offer a full scholarship to a Mcllravy, Ironside...etc...(both big time recruits) or the Williams who were again, elite recruits. As for that list...that's a little mis-leading. Now do '23 and '24. They had 5 a ton of young talent already going into that '22 class. They really are getting their pick of Wrestlers. I'd venture a guess that this was one of PSUs worst recruiting classes in a long time. But "all the talent" is obviously hyperbole. They're getting their pick of Wrestlers...and, they've earned it. Even if they had the historic class OSU had, what would it change? Tom Ryan needs to take the talent he brought to tOSU, develop 2,3,4 National Champs from that class. They need to find a way to better develop some of these studs they get. That's how it builds upon itself. That and I'll go back to the idea that landing a guy like Snyder or DT when they're ready to move into coaching, that could be HUGE for a program like OSU(particularly OSU).

First of all, I don't think people are actually complaining. I think they're more in awe of what PSU has managed to accomplish, the talent they're assembling. Second, I'd have to go and look up the threads from Iowa's 1983 run to see what people were saying in order to compare the opinion regarding PSU's dominating and that of Iowa. I heard what you're saying, but I think this is a bit of an outlier. Relatively few kids actually transfer vs those who've had success. And a guy like Nagao is transfering from a program that's pretty rich in tradition itself. What's more, there aren't many spots people are going to be able to transfer into PSU at...or Iowa or OSU. I don't think this has the devastating impact you're suggesting, but again, it's just better for the sport if there are more competitive teams and less transferring.

I'm certainly not betting on Messenbrink at this point. He's a pretty distant 3rd...at least behind O'Toole and Carr and I might put him behind Amine and Hamiti...but to just flatly dismiss the potential that he COULD knock off either next year...well, you're grossly underestimating him. His Dad is also one of the best coaches I've seen in game planning and helping prepare for a particular match. Now given how we'll he knows O'Toole, having coached him for SO long, I think the chances that he knocks off O'Toole are better than some are giving him. Especially with ~11 months to train and work with just some of the guys you've listed. I'm also curious if he even goes '65. Seems like it'd make more sense to RS Haines, Wrestle Messenbrink at '57 and then the next year Messenbrink moves up. Right now, sure...but would you be shocked if in 11 months it's a competitive match? John Messenbrink is as responsible for AWA's success(and Askren's) IMO than anyone. Mitchell is going to be as prepared for whatever O'Toole has as anyone in the Country. If he can actually stop it or upset him...that remains to be seen.

I don't think the original post was actually..."whining," I think it was more joking. PSU is building a team, that at least based on recruiting looks like it could put out a 2nd lineup that would win a team trophy. -Cael IS doing Gable type of winning. I don't think that was great for the sport either...so I DON'T hope he keeps it up. It is objectively bad for a sport when there is ONE team that dominates to THIS extent. That's not Penn State's fault. That's exactly what every team wants to do. But as a fan of the sport as a whole, knowing Penn State is going to win the 2024 NC by 50 points at least...it's not great. Wrestling is different in that at least each school can have it's individual athletes it can root for even if their team is just battling for 2nd.

LOL...as enjoyable as I'd find a Cael-Askren feud, I don't see Cael responding. Maybe a Starocci or someone speaking for Cael, but that staff is too "turn the other cheek" for something good like that.

Yes. No, seriously though, he already basically said he was kidding...kinda. In the sense that Cael has some grand scheme. Bernie Truax wanted to go to PSU. He was offered more elsewhere. He WANTED to go to PSU. Messenbrink said he didn't care about the money, he wanted to go to the place that would give him the best chance to reach his goals. He's gonna be working out with Levi Haines, Mark Hall, Vincenzo Joseph(he still there)...Facundo who...remember like 6 months ago was arguably the best of the 3 Freshmen and was in the deepest, toughest weight? The kid could end up the 3rd stringer...and also one of the top 8 in the Country. I don't think we will see multiple juggernauts. Penn State is entering a new level right now. An era where they could look like the '83 Hawkeyes year after year. You just cannot compare the current Wrestling Landscape with Football from any era. Alabama was always being pushed. It's just a totally different sport. Even during 'Bama's run, they've had 2 undefeated seasons and each year they had games they VERY easily could have lost. In fact, I think they had to come from behind to be Auburn in his first NC run in the SEC Championship game and then nearly lost to Florida in their last. Penn State is absolutely LAPPING the competition and the best Wrestlers are picking PSU over other programs, other blue blood programs with more money to offer because they just simply want to train at and wrestle for the best. To compare it to Alabama, they'd have to have ~10 1st team AAs each year and then a couple of 2nd or 3rd teamers and dominate like dominate a whole helluva lot more than they have. Penn State is more akin to where UConn was when they were in one of their 100 game winning streaks or the UCLA Bruins in the 60s and 70s. They might as well get Vito and Nagao to transfer in while they're at it and have Vito go back down to '25. See if they can just sweep the NCAAs(again, I'm being hyperbolic here, but they have 8 legitimate Title Contenders as it stands, several '25 pounders who will come in and compete with Robbie Howard who finally got his shoulder fixed and even if Nagao ends up elsewhere, they're so loaded, it'll be a matter of winning the NCAAs by 70 or 90 points. This is the deepest, most talented team I've seen and they've got so much more talent coming through. Just imagine if Hopke ends up there. Not good for the sport, but it's going to be very interesting to watch and there's not much to do at this point than sit back and appreciate/respect what they've built.

And then the Mirasolas and Ryder...though they have some time. It also may extend down to '25 with Lilledahl, Gibson(likely followed by is brother, the cousins, so 5 total). Penn State is going to lose AAs like Beard because they just can't crack the lineup in the near future.

Not at all. It's just one particular member of that forum who will even take genuinely GOOD recruits and trash them. The ONLY way Bono should keep his job is if he gets Davino, Hopke and Ferrari from that '24 class. He's said other stupid things as well. Someone posted the new facilities at OSU(which are incredible) and he said athletes don't care about that, nobody goes to Iowa to Wrestle at CHA...which is insane to me. That place is incredible and seems like it'd be most kids dreams if they grew up Iowa fans. But no, we're on the same page. BadgerOne used to Wrestle for the Badgers, doesn't now and is less than sincere.

I'm not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not, but...it's not that crazy to think. If...hypothetically, he goes 157 next year, I think he's the favorite. 165 and he's certainly not. What a tough call PSU will have to make...does your True Fresh who took 2nd go 157, does the incoming RS Freshmen who beat said True Freshmen(albeit before College) go 157, does one move up and knock off one of the top recruits in their class who was SUCH a massive bust he "only" won 1 match at the NCAAs?

Sealy should be planning a Grey Shirt and then a RS, but...Jesus...Van Ness BETTER make sure he keeps his weight down! And Kasak for that matter...

He's gotta be Minnesota or PSU. He's the type of guy you go out and try and recruit a guy like Lowney, pay him to work at the RTC(doesn't have to be Lowney, but someone). Right now...if I'm Koy Hopke, even if I grew up a UW fan, I'm not going there. If my Goal above all else is to be a Olympic Champ(and his Goals should be similar to Spencer Lee's IMO, 4X NCAA, WC and OLY Champ as many time as possible...it's clear where his chances are best of making that happen. The NLWC... It's at a point right now where it's just building upon itself. They're adding numerous kids who've won World Titles are various age groups, and they've got a LOT of guys who could work with Hopke. From even Dake/Taylor to Snyder and Cassar still trains there, doesn't he?

Guessing it was "BadgerOne," right? He's a former Badger who pretends he's really inveted in the team and is actually currently at Cal Poly at the moment. He's shit on the Miquel Estrada signing, a 2X State Champ from Cali(not State Title the year before). Won it in a weight with 4 Nationally ranked guys(including both the #1 and #2 ranked Wrestlers at one point until they moved up to 152). Little Parco who was ranked 3rd...Estrada has gone through two seasons in California with one more left, undefeated. He doesn't wrestle a lot of National Tourney's, but he did win Folk Nats. But that wasn't a good signing either. So there are some people on there who are never pleased. Liegel is an AWESOME kid and I'm excited to see how he does fulfilling his dream of Wrestling for the Badgers. Is it as good for a fan as Hopke? Of course not, but it's still cool. Also, these are still kids, so I hate when people go on a forum and shit on a very highly respected family in the State by diminishing his addition. Bono does this for everyone. When you quoted someone I'd not heard of, and said "the best news," I wondered if that was someone in the know that had inside info. But what exactly should Bono say? GREAT day to be a Badger=Top 10-15 recruit(again, not Miguel Estrada) REALLY good day to be a Badger-Someone like Rivera Pretty good day to be a Badger=Julian George 'Well, it's a guy, don't get your hopes up'-day to be a Badger?

Never heard Askren say that, but that'd be shocking if he's actually planning on going 197, but that'd be a strange plan for a guy with his build. And McIntosh was just quite a bit bigger than Sinclair. I guess he could decide to just never cut weight, but he's got the frame of a '74(honestly, at this point, he'd be a pretty normal size '65 pounder). But obviously he'll continue to add weight. We'll see where he is in 2 years(or maybe just one year) but 197? Maybe try that for a RS season and then see how it goes. I'd be willing to bet he won't be able to hold 197 a couple weeks into College practices without trying to cut weight...but we'll see how it goes.

Yeah, that was the first video I'd seen on it since I'd known it was proposed and they were just kinda explaining what the rules WILL be. And they didn't even tough on the pushout. I wonder if they have some idea which way it'll go or if it was just poor reporting or a poor job articulating their point.

Agreed. I just think he's been Wrestling without cutting...really any weight because he just hasn't had to. He's SO slick, but at the next level..just thinking about him Wrestling a guy like Elam or Trumble, that'd be tough. Or more realistically, someone like Sasso. I'd put him at 174 if he was starting at Missouri this year, but given that he's got 2 years(Edit-if he takes a RS), he could easily continue to fill out and hit '84 and have a Max Dean type build. Whichever weight he's at...he's going to be in the mix early on for a title...IMO.

I'd assume Angelo before Hopke at this point. I think Messenbrink or Griffith are LONG shots and not sure Nagao would go from Minnesota to Wisconsin. The best news for Wisconsin WOULD be Hopke though. So if it's really the "best news ever," in terms of recruiting, it'd be Hopke. I'd just be surprised if he made his decision before he took his other visits.