scourge165

Jimmy...your schtick is cute when it's actually about Wrestling, but this is just you being a true asshole. Not about Cael, not about PSU, this is about a kid overcoming addiction issues and a redemption story. For once, just try not to be a douche bag.

I really started the list, but I couldn't disagree with anyone. I can't put Kerk on there as bad as he looked or...Keckeisen or whoever, so it's these 5. Next 5 would be MUCH more difficult. -Real Woods -Mekhi Lewis -Fix(Might be knocking him unfairly, but last impressions) -Lovett -Haines -Greg Kerkvliet -Gomez...I guess. I still like him. -Rocky Elam

Assuming everyone that has eligibility and hasn't yet choosen to forgo it is eligible and we're looking at next year; --I actually got to 3 and all I'd done was flip Brooks and Starocci. It's SO hard to put anyone ahead of Vito right now though. The way I watched him smoke RBY and Fix...IDK, at this moment, I might have him #1. Brooks and Starocci are better overall in terms of their careers, but Vito wrestled at a level I haven't seen many(Any?) '33 pounders Wrestle at.

I don't see him holding '41 very long, so you should probably look at Van Ness. That argument about the level of recruiting talent...that was a debate that ends with this '23 class and transfers. I could coach Penn State to 5 National Championships with Jimmy Cinnabon's as my "inspirational speaker."

Wait...are you saying Penn State is a good team and...if I read your post correctly, they'll be a really good team next year? LOL...so what? You're not breaking news here Woodward. @CHROMEBIRD I think his post was kinda joking...maybe even poking a little fun at Lee(maybe I'm wrong here) and the situation, or at least the interest in it. How does that manifest in "Penn State is better than you?" Which, again, for clarification, we know. And Jesus is better than Muhammed. We've got the order straight now, right? I mean, I'm still curious about Joseph Smith, where he fits into the "prophet" pecking order, but the rest of it, very clear!

Ok...how has Lewis not been the same? And don't we need to wait a few years? Because Dake beat a 1X Champ in Taylor, Steiber beat the kid that took 3 and his win over Oliver was one of the most controversial we've seen. If Starocci beats...Gabe Arnold and he goes on to win 3 NCs, how much more impressive does that make it? You've read 4 of the 5 books and you've determined they're better...but there's still several chapters left. Hell, he could Wrestle 2 more years and end up with multiple more NCs in his weight. But suffice to say, if he beat O'Toole and Lewis, that'd be roughly on par with Dake, Yianni, Cael(in terms of who we built, I'm not talking about who's actually better...because as I've said, I'd have 3 timers ahead of at least one 4X Champ.

This is the reason HE gave for going to Penn State. He went to Cal Bap first because...as others have pointed out, they were the first ones who were really in on him. He wasn't a huge prospect until after beating Haines and some of the things he did his SR year. He choose PSU because he said that was the best place to accomplish his goals. That's not a story, and I'm not a PSU fan, that's just reality right now.

I think I'm putting the RS on Haines, letting Messenbrink go '57. That's best for each Wrestler...I think. Plus, Facundo doesn't lose a year. Facundo is probably a top 8 Wrestler next year...and it's not like PSU needs him to win a team title. Messenbrink is a potential 4X Champ. Likely if he Wrestle's '57 a year(or two) IMO. I don't know how Cael balances that out though.

I think this is all pretty accurate. People shouldn't take this personally....but they will. If you took Mark Schultz, gave him some elite level training from just 6th grade on, he'd likely be a "unicorn" in today's era...probably. As it stood, he had NEVER won a Tournament until his Sr year in HS and it was the State Tournament(I know I've made this point before, but it highlights the contrast to starkly). Compare that to a Mark Hall(who I thought was a Unicorn) or a Beau Basset who's been Wrestling all over the world since JHS. BUT, you're not taking that into account in this hypothetical...in which case, I think Nickal or Zahid would have easily been 4X Champs and I know the studs from the 80s agree with me. If people are honest, they can admit to how Wrestling has progressed as they age. It's been less than 15 years for me and it's objectively better now. In 20 years...I'd be disappointed if we're not saying the same thing about the guys right now. ***This doesn't diminish Schultz level of greatness in my mind. He was an absolute monster. Doesn't diminish anyone. I don't think less of Ted Williams because you didn't have left handed specialists or guys couldn't touch the velocity of the pitchers now. Just compare guys to the era they competed in. I think that's what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did....did ya think we weren't gonna be able to piece that together? Oh, there's not two Murin's coaching the Hawkeyes! My GOD we'd be lost with Jimmy.

Don't go shitting on a good idea with "logic" and how "realistic" it is!

Yeah...I don't know. I know I felt what Chael said about EVERY Wrestler has that match that they wish they could do over or those two matches they wish they could go back and Wrestle(Even someone like Yianni would have Gomez and...Eierman I think). But losing a piece of your soul? I really just think Spencer needs like 6 months of training at this point. I believe his knees are healthy. I don't believe his gas tank is full(because of the knees). I think he probably knew he couldn't beat Suriano. That he could jump out to a lead...but not hold onto it.

Pat Downey?

I'm gonna guess PSU and Wisconsin...and one will play FB and Wrestle. At least to start.

I've been saying Ohio State is the most likely place for it to happen, and it's require a David Taylor(hometown hero, seems like he's got the personality for coaching) and then add that 2nd dynamic coach. I'd been thinking Dake, but Snyder would be brilliant. The 3rd, it's more important how he fits than anything. Ohio has enough in-state talent and tOSU has the program and the facilities to get this done. JB's another guy I've thought of, but I was trying to line up program and athlete and some connection. Not sure Nebraska could do it. JB is from NJ. Of course he could coach anywhere as it's not like Cael's from Penn, just think it'd help a coach like Taylor(or Snyder) hit the ground running to return in-state either from HS or College. But yes, it would appear PSU is the team for the next 5-6 years at least. I could see him stepping back and Cunningham stepping in at some point as well...and PSU not losing a step.

And again, the FIRST tournament Schultz won in High School...was the State Tournament. 32-8 going in.

LOL...there are people who believe winning at 125 is not as impressive as winning at a more...normal weight. I don't think that's neccesarily the case(or worth arguing). But Lee had 6 losses and took a 6th as a SR. Why is it so silly to put him beneath Nolf, Nickal, Zain or Cox? It's obviously subjective. Would it be less Silly if Lee had lost earlier in his career and people didn't just assume he'd win? If you think Lee's the best...ok. I can see that argument. If you think 4 guys with 30-40 more wins and fewer loses and the same number of NCs are so far behind him it's comical...well, I can't see that. Cox beat Snyder, maybe the best Wrestler of our era the one year he didn't win it. It's a subjective ranking.

Lee Kemp...he was a 2X State Champ and 3X NC. So many of those guys just didn't start until HS. Just the idea that you didn't have many clubs is kinda strange when looking back.

Most of us are going to watch anyway, but there have been other years where the team title was actually still in doubt after the quarters. The adjusted scoring record? If Robbie Howard is healthy as @PortaJohn pointed out. Also, does Messenbrink and Haines wrestle next year? Does Haines get knocked out of the starting lineup? LOL...that's...actually possible at this point.

We'd be talking to Jeff f'ing Bezos if that was the case... Or Elon...take your pick of guy on his way to being worth a trillion dollars...

No problem. You didn't seem to understand as you said it was all about the "bag man." Tom Ryan showing up on campus and as you say, top 10 recruit Brinzer and they didn't even recruit him. How'd he end up there? Seems like they're showing up on a Silver Platter...as the expression goes. In other words, they were delivered to him without him even recruiting them. Mine is based on how inherently flawed the rankings you have only cut and pasted from the 1980s before Flo Nationals, Who's #1, Recruiting showcases, YOUTUBE, the INTERNET...vs modern rankings are. Not hindsight. Just the exclusion of Alger on that list makes it laughable and makes me dubious of all of your rankings.

He does give up TDs. It's a bit similar to Lee in that respect. But he's also got a LOT of different attacks on his feet and he is going to come after you like an angry Honey Badger for 7 minutes. He's not going to stand in the center with 6 seconds left just looking at you. He's going to wear guys who have very full gas tanks out. That's why I said he reminded me of an Iowa guy, a Mcllravy type. Mcllravy was slick, but his technique wasn't nearly as good as Abas...but he still came back to beat him 16-15. He will get out on the bottom. Hard to predict how his riding will translate, but I think it'll work out. But the kid is not going to give ANYONE anything easy. It will be entertaining. He really does seem like an old school Gable type guy. But again, his Dad is also brilliant at breaking down an opponent and coming gup with a game plan for that individual. That old bastard(said with genuine respect) is still a kicking everyone's ass in the room as well. He can still probably beat Mitchell. So he's in there working on O'Toole and Carr right now most likely. Or...maybe just some kinda basic concepts.

I feel like the point still stands. He's going to thee powerhouse RTC right now. He's going to have several guys to work out with. Both in the room during the regular season practices, or with the RTC. But thanks, I haven't paid attention that closely to everyone. I assumed Hall would still be there. Find it a bit strange he's not, but so be it. Guys have other things going on in their lives that take them to other parts of the Country.

My man...you need to take a look at the roster and recruits coming into State College the next couple years. They've literally got Messenbrink and Haines. You've got Barr, Ryder, Connor and Cole Mirasola, Joe Sealey and Facundo. They may have been on a 5 years cycle with their previous super trios and then studs surrounding them, but I'm not even sure if he's really recruiting them at this point, or if there is just a line of World Medalists lined up outside his office waiting to get in. Lillendahl, Gibson, Kasak, Van Ness and again, I suspect you'll have 4 more people related to Gibson joining him. You had Nevills, an AA caliber Wrestler with Kerkvliet. His brother also got beat out by a NC...though that wasn't due to recruiting so much...entirely. They had 2 top ~8 guys at 197, so Cassar went up to HWT and knocked Nick out of the lineup. I could go on with Mansville and Joseph or so many others moving forward yet, but he's recruiting multiple studs at every weight and he's doing it...very simply...because he can. And if you can, why wouldn't you?

But that's individuals. That's where I've said at least Wrestling has that going for it, but how many people are tuning in to watch a match or a game that's pretty much already decided before it's over with? It's generally only in niche sports you have this type of dominance. With Tiger, as dominant as he was, he wasn't winning like PSU is winning in Wrestling(it's a difficult analogy)...but in your examples there is suspense. There's no suspense when it comes to the team race. This isn't a huge concern of mine, I just simply think it'd be better if Messenbrink went to Mizzou or...actually, if Nagao and Messenbrink went to Iowa. How fun would it be to see Iowa compete with PSU and Messenbrink and Haines battling it out? Plus, Iowa has that recruiting class coming in. Maybe Truax also goes there. Or they go to OSU. I don't care...but it's telling that you'd probably need the teams that had the best recruiting classes to add 3 NC contenders to make it interesting with PSU. But instead, PSU got at least two of them and from what it sounds like, they'll get the 3rd. I'm gonna be there next year. We're all gonna be here on the forums, but I even hear people on here who love College Wrestling talking about how they DVR the Championships and watch them later on FF. So I imagine they're not watching the Rd of 12 or the medal matches, those pivotal matches that WERE deciding the team champs before Cael went and built the dynasty at PSU. AGAIN, not saying PSU is "ruining" Wrestling or doing anything I wouldn't want the team I root for to do. They're doing what everyone should...it's just a better product IMO when a match in the Rd of 16 can end up swinging the team Title or a match in the Finals would be even better. We're not looking at that for the next 3-4 years(conservatively speaking).