scourge165

I feel like I've made my point over and over... If it's still not resonating, it's not gonna.

My thought is this is genuinely willfull ignorance Who said anything about Wrestling with fear? We're talking about training, preparation, the running 6 miles after winning that you just claimed in YOUR opinion wasn't healthy... Ah, what's the point.

Yeah...I'm tapping out here. This was in response to YOU suggesting people who feel that way don't want to be "seen as a loser." Quoting one line from an entire post removes all context and any attempt to have a reasonable discussion. Also, this is getting tiresome. You're either willfully or somehow accidentally missing the main points by going back and quoting single lines like this with no context.

Maybe. I just think it could be an interesting match. That's all.

It's not JUST the body types I'm looking at, it's the body types of another ELITE Wrestler. I thought Elam was the best '97 in that weight(things don't always work out that way, just my opinion). Also, I wasn't picking against Brooks(that'd seem silly at this point), but Loew isn't Elam. He's be wrestling a BIG '97 pounder who's VERY good on top, tough to finish on and just took a 3rd this year. Loew took an 8th at '84. I think Rocky Elam would present a much tougher challenge. Just saying it'd make for an interesting match. Certainly a fun one for the fans.

It's mind blowing. They won the B1G Championships and beat THE FIELD 38-3. Cael is incredible...but not sure he's reached the level of dominance Gable reached juuuust yet.

That'd make ASU pretty damn scary...and so long as you have ASU's full lineup(meaning no Oly for Schultz)...it could certainly be interesting. Rather seem Teemer at 157. Not sure if he's got the size for 165.

I don't know, Brands is REALLY good at that collar lock! I really do root for a little more parity, but I'm not gonna lie, it'd be fun to see Nagao at 133, a healthy Howard at 125, Bartlett coming off his first real taste of success in College and Yr 2 of Van Ness, Haines, Facundo and then Brooks bumping up with Starocci, Truax, Brooks and Kerkvliet. Also...Truax has said he wants to go '84, right? Assad isn't going '97, right? That would seemingly make the decision easier. God knows he's got to be tired of finishing 4th(as impressive as that may be). It'd also be VERY interesting to see a Brooks-Elam match. The differences in builds could make that a tougher matchup for Brooks.

Aside from the obvious, Escobedo is one helluva steal. I think he's got that Indiana program headed in the right direction. I wonder what Cael's actually paid. I remember the rumors he got a million when he was hired at PSU(I always suspected that was either a guarantee...like a 5 year deal, or included a house...something like that). Now it wouldn't completely shock me to see him paid that once you get to housing or bonuses. I suspect he'd want to ensure Cunningham was paid a salary commensurate with other well paid HCs so that may come out of his salary a bit, but seemingly worth it.

I don't recall his reaction after the match, but to be clear, I believe what Lombardi is saying(And certainly the sentiment I'm expressing) is more about how you respond to failure. Does it push you to work harder, be better? Or do you accept it and just go about your business? I think you should always respect who you're Wresting...sometimes things get heated and that's not the case, but I'm speaking about how you respond to that loss. To that sinking feeling.

It has nothing to do with anyone else's expectations or what someone may label me. It has to do with my own competitive drive and the nature of the sport. I'll just reiterate my fundamental believes and narrow them down because they've gotten too vague and we've gotten off topic to other areas. 1-I think Wrestling is less popular than Baseball or Basketball because those other two are more fun for the average person to participate in. Everyone(almost) shoots hoops or plays catch. 2-I think Wrestling is tougher. It's HARDER to have success. It's not just about talent. SO much more goes into it than that. The mental toughness to push yourself MUCH further than you have to in Baseball or Basketball or Football. ----These are the reasons I don't believe it was ever going to be as popular as those sports. 3-I think more than being "fun," Wrestling is rewarding. Just like running can be. Pushing yourself physically and getting better. AGAIN, as I've said numerous times, I originally said, The "fun" is used interchangeable with rewarding by me, and maybe that's where I made a mistake. Either way, you're not keeping people out if they're not having having success or at least getting better. Success can be measured in different ways. Are we REALLY arguing that what it takes to be good or great at Wrestling, to compete at the highest levels in HS, in College(at any level) that it doesn't take more work than Baseball or Basketball? That was the origin of this branch of the discussion. That Wrestling could be just as popular as those IF NOT FOR....I disputed that and was told it was about me being a "tuff guy." And once more, I am driven in Wrestling to get better. To win. I DO have a fear of failure and I think that's healthy. I think it's pushed me. Knowing I was going to have to Wrestle a certain Wrestler, it made me work harder. It had NOTHING to do with anyone else's perception because it's not about that. You're CANNOT Wrestle to meet someone else's expectations or for anyone other than yourself. You're going to hate the sport. So no, it wasn't about being thought of as a loser. And it doesn't even have to be the "fear" of losing, it's remember what it felt like when you lost, holding onto that and using that to drive you to get better. If you think that's unhealthy...so be it. I happen to think that's what pushed Gable to go out and run 6 miles immediately after winning a World Championship because he had to get ready for next year.

Yeah, fair enough. You had a couple years there where Ohio State or Iowa State were just a win or two from winning a NC in '07 and '09...and then Iowa State would likely have been within striking distance with Taylor and the guys who followed Cael to PSU(not sure who else did other than the youngest Sanderson).

When did we really have this parity though? Gable had a couple years his team didn't win it, but very little. The closest we really had was a ~5-6 year stretch when Minnesota finally broke through, then Okie State had a run with Pendleton, Hendricks, Mocco, Thompson...etc... Seems like Wrestling has always had one power house and that every so often another team would challenge them or beat them, but not prolonged periods of parity. Unless you're referencing just parity in terms of resources. Taking the NIL money out of the equation and giving teams the 9.9 scholarships and then having to sell the other Wrestlers on their programs and just recruit based on that.

Fair enough, but is this any different than the past? Not sure it is. The difference now is it's easier for a kid who's stuck behind a Max Dean to transfer and not lose a year of eligibility. This is one of those things that really hurt Women's Basketball, or most of the...people get upset when I use the word "Niche" but the...smaller sports? The non-revenue generating. However you'd like to phrase it, but when you know before the season who's going to win, it's not good for the sport. You knew UConn was going to win WCBB for years, before that it was Tennessee. Even if you didn't follow it, you knew that. The one thing Wrestling has going for it at all levels, you obviously don't know who's going to win the individual weights and that brings in fans from every school. That is one thing that makes the sport so great. You can find guys from anywhere. Northern Colorado can beat the #1 ranked Wrestler from the University of Iowa. You can have guys who didn't win a State Title win a NC. You can have a guy who didn't Wrestle in HS win 6 NCs!...though Haslerig may have had a tougher time today, still, it happened. All the same, it'd be nice to see a little more intrigue as it pertains to the team Champs.

As it's too late to edit this, I wish I'd have clarified. I'm not talking about 3rd graders when talking about high level. I'm going into this with the expectation that you're not having a 3rd grader...or...hopefully any kid cutting weight, though I have seen it. I don't think a 3rd grader should be doing more than going to a practice maybe twice a week for 90 minutes with a nice warm up, a little technique, and then some shit to make it fun. This wouldn't apply to any kids, this wouldn't apply to any beginning Wrestlers, JV Wrestlers... I used "High level." That can mean a kid Wrestling out at Fargo, it can mean State...it was more directed to COLLEGE athletes or Sr level athletes as...again, this is a COLLEGE Forum. But no, this was obviously NEVER meant for Youth Wrestlers.

It's WAY worse with women. I don't know how many video's on YT I've seen where they have a title with "Nasty Women Wrestling," and they're not strictly sexual(though they certainly dramatize the "but drag," as though it's something sexual) but they'll show maybe a SLIGHTLY aggressive hand to the face...or just regular head snaps. Those are almost funny because I don't think I've seen one yet that I'd give a second thought to. It basically seems like a way to say that Wrestling isn't "lady-like." I'd think with UFC, this shit would stop. They get into a lot of the same situations. They're on their back, they try to get into their guard, wrap their legs around you, you try an get the back. Pretty obvious there's nothing sexual about it... This video is so silly though, I can kinda laugh about it. It really is just sophomoric type humor.

That's another thing. This just switched over to youth Wrestling because Formally140 got all up in his feelings and personally insulted because I said the sport isn't fun if you're not WINNING(or getting better) and that the sport was more rewarding...and then he just went off about his High School team. We're on a College Forum, why do you think this is limited to youth Wrestling?

I think things will settle in. You create bonds and friendships at a school...and while being recruited or wanted is always nice, I think schools will get burned by kids, kids will regret their choices, others will show a bit more loyalty. I don't see any school just adding kids and giving them NIL just so they can "thin out" other teams, their competition. Especially since PSU is the primary team doing it and they've got guys going there making them 2-3 deep at some weights...which will probably sort itself out and they'll likely end up losing Wrestlers and become a victim of their own success. Mirasola's, Ryder, Barr, Sealey, on top of Haines, Van Ness Facundo, there are guys who just won't be able to make the lineup from '65-97, guys who are high AA caliber Wrestlers who'll likely end up elsewhere. It is sad to see the kids who have success at smaller schools leave. To play devils advocate though, if Caleb Smith(hypothetically) is having success at App State, how much could he potentially improve at PSU in that room with those partners? At the same time, even if there are only 3-4 programs who are really competitive, is that really that much difference Wrestling since Gable became an assistant coach at Iowa? Iowa and PSU have dominated on the two sides with Okie State having a dominant run or two sprinkled in. 41 Titles for Iowa, Okie St, PSU 3 for Minnesota 2 for Iowa State 1 for ASU 1 for OSU (I just did a cursory glance, I may be missing someone) It's not great for the sport, no question about that. The portal is certainly another tool to help the rich stay rich, but I'm not sure how we combat that. A guy like Koll at OU could maybe help them become competitive again. A new wave of coaches could certainly help. Jordan Burroughs, David Taylor, Kyle Dake. Missouri looks like they MIGHT be able to break through. But I guess we just have to root for the uneven results from the portal so programs aren't investing into a Wrester another school developed and started to have success with. It's a shitty situation, but it's also what we've had as long as I can recall.

LOL...of course that's great. Being in a high profile match. I promise it wasn't "fun" losing that match...but the problem is, we're getting Dad's translation of the son. As I said previously, it can be rewarding. That's a sense of accomplishment when you wrestle someone who pushes you, you leave it all on the mat. You can lose that match and still come away feeling good as you can believe you're IMPROVING. Which...again, from my very first post. But again, no Wrestler enjoys losing. I don't believe any high level athlete does. As Vince Lombardi said; As for the resume stuff, yeah, that's pretty classless, but consider the source. I would certainly not point to any of Max or Otto's failures and shit on their resume...just because I've said repeatedly, I respect everyone who actually steps on the mat. They ACTUALLY understand what the sport is. If you haven't done that...you don't. And again, I have LBJ on ignore, but he's asked me constantly about my "credentials," or "resume," in situations where it really has absolutely nothing to do with the larger point. Listing off accomplishments or Wrestlers I've beat in a discussion like this feels a bit...self aggrandizing. I mean, I suppose I could ask my Dad to come on here and comment, or any number of coaches, but they likely all give me a funny look and just laugh! Particularly my Dad. He's a little classier and reserved. He's always said my accomplishments are not his(though, I do beg to differ). I've never heard him come back from a National Tourney and say, "WE were All-Americans." Hell, I don't think he' ever said, "he," referring to me was. Maybe if prompted, "how did he finish up," he may have. In any event, I'm quite secure in my accomplishments and my resume. The crux of the issue there is that I said I thought Greco was the easier style of Wrestling(which...again, for the umpteenth time, I would have NEVER gotten into had he not said Freestyle of Folkstyle were not "real" Wrestling(oddly enough, only the style his sons have had success at are "real" Wrestling. Just in general though, this has just been a weird discussion. LBJ, I mean, I get his trolling. I've hit on some sore spots. Formally just seems oddly sensitive about my initial post. It seems like it started when I stated that I didn't think Wrestling could reach Basketball/Football level success, he took a great deal of offense. And, as always, LBJs participation makes it all the stranger given he's said Folkstyle and Freestyle are not "real Wrestling," and only Greco is. I suspect I know why that is, but I'll keep that to myself.

Agreed. It feels like there's a lot of cherry picking going on here. That's to be expected when LJB comes into the conversation and tells us about his kids... As for the "embracing competition," you responded to, it's kinda funny, the people who accuse me of being "pedantic" by claiming I keep talking about "participation" trophies, I'll reiterate'; As for competition I said;

Shit, I didn't know that. I just so he had Hodkins Lymphoma. Got that in '82, went through treatment in '83(or at least much of it) and he STILL Wrestled at and Won the Olympics? That's impressive. I mean...even had he lost, the drain cancer takes out of you indescribable.

Yes, he went there. The dispute comes in who stopped being friends with who and the spin now(or maybe not spin)...who's to say. If you like Trump, he was so outraged over Epstein hitting on a younger women, he banned him from the club. If you don't, Epstein thought Trump was dishonest and their friendship stopped over some business dealings. I'm sure you have seen the comments where Trump "I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it - Jeffrey enjoys his social life." He was also accused or raping a 13 year old girl with Epstien. That lawsuit went away before the election I believe. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation (I posted the first link that I saw. The story isn't about the opinions in there, it's just the fact that he was in fact sued by a women who claims she was raped). We is known is that Trump was on the Epstein plane once according to flight records. Maybe that's because he had his own private plane, maybe it's because he only went there once...I don't know. Trump doesn't do himself any favors by bragging about how he can walk into the changing rooms as Mrs. Teen USA pageants while they're getting dressed because he "owns the thing," or pointing at a 12 year old girl and saying, "I'll be dating her in 10 years," loudly...on video.

You should go on social media. There was an a huge double standard. Largely...because people didn't know a lot of the other Wrestlers wrestling. Casual Wrestling fans didn't care about other guys MFFs. They knew about Spencer Lee and he got the shit. This isn't even in dispute. Also, among the diehards. There weren't people asking why there was a MFF at 184 and where was Trey Munoz and a fake story about Trey Munoz leaving the City. Yeah, but he didn't do anything like that. He did say there were much higher expectations for him, he tried to downplay the injury and talk about how much of a stud Ramos is. The kid had to try and walk a razor thin line without sounding like he was making excuses and diminishing his opponents and also trying to be honest. I'm no ta big Iowa fan. I'm not a particularly big Spencer Lee fan. I thought he did as well as he could have. Finally, you keep saying, "shoe me all the threads." Social Media is bigger than just this forum or any of the Wrestling forums. The shit on Twitter was ruthless. The people going onto his stream were people who I assume went out of their way to talk shit to him just...because they're bored pathetic people(he talked about streaming while playing video games...which is a weird concept to me, but also a very real thing that people make insane amounts of money for...watching someone else play video games...which has to be a new era of lazy in this country).

I'm just going to re-post my initial paragraph that got Formally so upset and leave this conversation alone;

Just bored, looking at some old brackets, the 1983 Iowa team was INCREDIBLE. First of all, B1G Championship. They lost 2 matches...the ENTIRE TOURNAMENT. Rico Chiapparelli took 4th. Those were the TWO losses. They had 9...CHAMPS. 9 out of 10 Iowa Wrestlers ran through the B1G. NCAAs. 9 AAs Weight/AA finish/Name/Seed 118-5th Tim Riley(8) 126-1st Barry Davis(1) 134-5th Jeff Kerber(6th) 142-3rd Harlan Kistler(3) 150-4th Jim Heffernan(4) Future NCAA Champion 158-1st Jim Zalesky(1) 167-DNP-Rico Chiapparelli(unseeded) Future NCAA Champion 177-2 Duane Goldman(3) Future NCAA Champion 190-1st Ed Banach(2) ULM-1st Lou Banach(1) 9 in the top 5 5 in the finals Goldman lost 4-2 to Mark Schultz 155 points which equates to ~177 using today's scoring Rico Chiapperlli best 7 seed Rd 1, pinned in the prelims, lost in the Quarters and then lost in the Rd12 to an AA Future NC(in on one of the great scrambles at 190). ***I'm not giving extra credit for what they did in the future, just mentioning it at an aside. So 7 Champs total, 9 top 5, the "hole" was the 4th place finisher at the B1Gs and again, future NC. Starting with Freshmen eligibility, can anyone match this type of dominance? I remember Minnesota winning the NCAA with 10 AAs...and that was INCREDIBLY impressive, but they didn't win a NC. This team won 4, a 5th lost to one of the greatest Wrestlers ever 4-2 and had 9 AAs. Can anyone one-up the 1983 Iowa Squad? Their 1992 team I've seen mentioned...but 1983 seems like they were the deepest and HAS to be the best duel team in the "modern" era. But I'd love to be proven wrong. And does anyone think we could see this again? Personally, I'm looking at PSU net year(not as the 2nd best ever, just as a team that COULD challenge if the rumors end up being true and things fall right as a team that could come close. If they get Nagao at 133(5th last year), Howard comes back strong at 125(top 5?), Barnett at 141(3rd), Van Ness at 149(3), Haines at '57(2nd), Facundo at 165(1-2...really hard to see him top 5 with returning talent), Starocci at 174(odds on favorite), Brooks probably at 197(again, clear favorite). Kerkvliet at HWT-His appeareance could have been due to an injury, but I thought he'd win it this year and he just looked disinterested). So that'd be POTENTIALLY Top ~5 5 3 3 2 DNP NC ??? Barr Love his length and how aggressive he is, think he needs a year, but someone is gonna have to get thrown in here. 197-NC HWT-NC??? I mean, he should be...but he also shouldn't have spent 8 minutes of a 7 minute match with his forehead on the mat. Facundo at 165 with potential ORS could move up. He is a blue chipper but even if you take O'Toole, Carr out of this bracket, it's still no lock. 184 is gonna be a VERY tough ask of Barr...though again, I think he fits the PSU mold and will improve drastically, but not that drastically. Not with Hidlay, Parker, Truax to start with likely at 184. I don't see anyone touching that '83 Iowa team for a while. Thoughts?