some know more than I

[MD152]

Hate to sound like a cry baby BUT,

Im old school (56 yrs old), my best days are behind me, with that being said i dont understand how some of the below thoughts are not called STALLING????  (in 1 paticular match over the weekend i counted a nationally ranked wrestler taking 74 steps backwards and 6 forward, he dropped to a knee or both knees with atleast 1 hand on the mat for a total of nearly 3 minutes and 15 seconds with zero intentions of attacking, take a look below and feel free to help me understand why we are seeing so much of the below tactics and should they be considered a form of stalling just as holding onto the leg/ankle for a 6 count is......

*going to one knee plus 1 hand and going backwards the entire match ... (note: 1 or 2 fake attempts at a shot/takedown is just that)

*going to 2 knees or switching knees plus 1 hand and going backwards the entire match .......

*CONSTANTLY hands to the forehead or head and face 

*backing up constantly THAN a quick circle in to avoid a stall call 

there are others but i am certain those on this forum all understand my thoughts, again I am an older school veteran wrestler, i like the unlimited "gas tanks", "popeye forearms" and "peg-board" workouts........ everyone knows I love all wrestling anyone who wrestles (spent time in the  war-room" has my support, no real favorites so i really dont favor this school or that school over another, my 2 favorite wrasslers are Snyder and Nolf with Kolat and Fried honorable mention, lol...... no need to name names on my end but why so many wrestlers dropping to the knee or the 3 point football stance or in many cases dropping to 2 knees, personally i think many times its a case where wrestlers who do this are tring to ride there match into OT and/or SV & TB........ all the same what say you all, would that/this be a form of STALLING and not wrestling, has wrestling change so much since my days that its now, "im not gonna try to win it in regulation"?? 

Edited February 5 by MD152

[ionel]

31 minutes ago, MD152 said:

Hate to sound like a cry baby BUT,

Im old school (56 yrs old), my best days are behind me ...

...why? 

[MPhillips]

19 minutes ago, ionel said:

...why? 

I'm older school than MD but I'm not getting older, just getting better.

Edited February 5 by MPhillips

[Gene Mills Fan]

They can all be stalling but the ref's don't have any balls

Im old school (56 yrs old), my best days are behind me

It's not all downhill, I won the Super Senior Club Championship At 64, still have the balls.

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

They can all be stalling but the ref's don't have any balls

Im old school (56 yrs old), my best days are behind me

It's not all downhill, I won the Super Senior Club Championship At 64, still have the balls.

I was beating guys in their 20s, 30s & 40s at 56.  Pick a sport, get in shape and go after it!  

[BigRedFan]

16 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I'm older school than MD but I'm not getting older, just getting better.

I set another personal record today:  most days alive.

[MPhillips]

6 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

I set another personal record today:  most days alive.

[bnwtwg]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

I was beating guys in their 20s, 30s & 40s at 56.  Pick a sport, get in shape and go after it!  

Pickleball snob

[ionel]

1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

Pickleball snob

Wasn't playing then but now ... 

[Gene Mills Fan]

25 minutes ago, ionel said:

I was beating guys in their 20s, 30s & 40s at 56.  Pick a sport, get in shape and go after it!  

I'm a 4.2 index and had to shoot even par on a 6300yd course to beat these old dudes. We got 16 guys older than 60 with handicaps under 6, the 20-year-olds wusses won't even give us a match.(because we want the strokes)

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

I'm a 4.2 index and had to shoot even par on a 6300yd course to beat these old dudes. We got 16 guys older than 60 with handicaps under 6, the 20-year-olds wusses won't even give us a match.(because we want the strokes)

George Carlin doesn't consider golf a sport.  Was a thing for me in 20s but not later ... not physical fitness and no chance of serious injury.  

I hate to think what George would say about pickleball.  

Edited February 5 by ionel

[Caveira]

I Have been re watching some random pbs Iowa duals on YouTube.  It’s astounding how different and quick they called stalling back then.    Beyond comprehension.   I suggest watching some of them.  

Edited February 5 by Caveira

[WrestlingRash]

Would shortening the match by making the first period 2 minutes reduce stalling?

[BruceyB]

3 hours ago, MD152 said:

personally i think many times its a case where wrestlers who do this are tring to ride there match into OT and/or SV & TB

I'm sure some will absolutely hate what I'm about to say here.

Referees should know the wrestlers who tend to "find themselves" in OT and TB regularly and be on the ready to call stalling. Tell both teams before the dual that you aren't going to watch two guys stare at each other for a match, and that if they don't wrestle, stalling is going to be called. If I'm an opposing coach and my wrestler is facing one of the guys who loves to drag a boring match to OT, I'm mentioning it to the ref beforehand and hoping he keeps a bit closer of an eye on things.

IMO it's a little bit like dirty hits in hockey. If you're a first time or rare offender, you might get away with a minor or at worst major penalty. But if you're a guy with a reputation you're likely to get a suspension.

We all know the guys that are guilty of doing nothing and dragging eventless matches to OT or ride outs. If that's your reputation, the refs shouldn't be afraid to have a shorter leash for your inactivity. If you don't like getting hit for stalling, you better start engaging because we've all had enough of it.

I was rooting for both Vega and Antrell to pull out the wins this past weekend, but I don't think either wrestler should have been tied or leading in the last 30 seconds of either match. Referees are so worried about "deciding" a match with a stall call that they have essentially allowed the stalling tactic to succeed because the wrestlers know the refs aren't likely to give the deciding point on a stall. Start hitting guys with stalling more frequently, and they'll adjust once they know they aren't going to be saved just because the ref doesn't "want" to call stalling to decide the match.

Not calling stalling only leads to more stalling. The more you allow wrestlers to avoid action, the more these guys will use these tactics. Make the tactics obsolete by calling them for what they are (stalling) and the problem goes away.

I also think a good fix is for referees to more often call stalling early in a match. The first one should be used as it is titled a "warning." Nothing happens to you the first time, it's just a way for the referee to say they expect more action from you. And once you've been warned, you better get going or know that you're going to give up a point.

Sorry. Thought train got rolling and ran away from me. But this topic has been on my mind a LOT, especially the last handful of years where the problem has seemed to amplify.

[Caveira]

21 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I'm sure some will absolutely hate what I'm about to say here.

Referees should know the wrestlers who tend to "find themselves" in OT and TB regularly and be on the ready to call stalling. Tell both teams before the dual that you aren't going to watch two guys stare at each other for a match, and that if they don't wrestle, stalling is going to be called. If I'm an opposing coach and my wrestler is facing one of the guys who loves to drag a boring match to OT, I'm mentioning it to the ref beforehand and hoping he keeps a bit closer of an eye on things.

IMO it's a little bit like dirty hits in hockey. If you're a first time or rare offender, you might get away with a minor or at worst major penalty. But if you're a guy with a reputation you're likely to get a suspension.

We all know the guys that are guilty of doing nothing and dragging eventless matches to OT or ride outs. If that's your reputation, the refs shouldn't be afraid to have a shorter leash for your inactivity. If you don't like getting hit for stalling, you better start engaging because we've all had enough of it.

I was rooting for both Vega and Antrell to pull out the wins this past weekend, but I don't think either wrestler should have been tied or leading in the last 30 seconds of either match. Referees are so worried about "deciding" a match with a stall call that they have essentially allowed the stalling tactic to succeed because the wrestlers know the refs aren't likely to give the deciding point on a stall. Start hitting guys with stalling more frequently, and they'll adjust once they know they aren't going to be saved just because the ref doesn't "want" to call stalling to decide the match.

Not calling stalling only leads to more stalling. The more you allow wrestlers to avoid action, the more these guys will use these tactics. Make the tactics obsolete by calling them for what they are (stalling) and the problem goes away.

I also think a good fix is for referees to more often call stalling early in a match. The first one should be used as it is titled a "warning." Nothing happens to you the first time, it's just a way for the referee to say they expect more action from you. And once you've been warned, you better get going or know that you're going to give up a point.

Sorry. Thought train got rolling and ran away from me. But this topic has been on my mind a LOT, especially the last handful of years where the problem has seemed to amplify.

Why tell the teams.  Just call stalling.  It’s easy.   Watch some old iptv Iowa duals.  Stalling is called so regularly.  It will blow your mind. 

Edited February 5 by Caveira

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

I Have been re watching some random pbs Iowa duals on YouTube.  It’s astounding how different and quick they called stalling back then.    Beyond comprehension.   I suggest watching some of them.  

Did they call stalling on Iowa in Carver?  It used to be that Iowa (home dual schools) could choose the ref for their home duals.  Iowa had some favorites and those guys knew they'd be invited back if called stalling on the visitors.  It was some grand home cookn'.   

[Caveira]

Just now, ionel said:

Did they call stalling on Iowa in Carver?  It used to be that Iowa (home dual schools) could choose the ref for their home duals.  Iowa had some favorites and those guys knew they'd be invited back if called stalling on the visitors.  It was some grand home cookn'.   

in the Iowa Iowa state one they did ya.   Several times I think it was their 1987 dual

[ionel]

Just now, Caveira said:

in the Iowa Iowa state one they did ya.   Several times I think it was their 1987 dual

Which venue? 

[Caveira]

Just now, ionel said:

Which venue? 

Carver 

[boconnell]

4 hours ago, BruceyB said:

I'm sure some will absolutely hate what I'm about to say here.

Referees should know the wrestlers who tend to "find themselves" in OT and TB regularly and be on the ready to call stalling. Tell both teams before the dual that you aren't going to watch two guys stare at each other for a match, and that if they don't wrestle, stalling is going to be called. If I'm an opposing coach and my wrestler is facing one of the guys who loves to drag a boring match to OT, I'm mentioning it to the ref beforehand and hoping he keeps a bit closer of an eye on things.

IMO it's a little bit like dirty hits in hockey. If you're a first time or rare offender, you might get away with a minor or at worst major penalty. But if you're a guy with a reputation you're likely to get a suspension.

We all know the guys that are guilty of doing nothing and dragging eventless matches to OT or ride outs. If that's your reputation, the refs shouldn't be afraid to have a shorter leash for your inactivity. If you don't like getting hit for stalling, you better start engaging because we've all had enough of it.

I was rooting for both Vega and Antrell to pull out the wins this past weekend, but I don't think either wrestler should have been tied or leading in the last 30 seconds of either match. Referees are so worried about "deciding" a match with a stall call that they have essentially allowed the stalling tactic to succeed because the wrestlers know the refs aren't likely to give the deciding point on a stall. Start hitting guys with stalling more frequently, and they'll adjust once they know they aren't going to be saved just because the ref doesn't "want" to call stalling to decide the match.

Not calling stalling only leads to more stalling. The more you allow wrestlers to avoid action, the more these guys will use these tactics. Make the tactics obsolete by calling them for what they are (stalling) and the problem goes away.

I also think a good fix is for referees to more often call stalling early in a match. The first one should be used as it is titled a "warning." Nothing happens to you the first time, it's just a way for the referee to say they expect more action from you. And once you've been warned, you better get going or know that you're going to give up a point.

Sorry. Thought train got rolling and ran away from me. But this topic has been on my mind a LOT, especially the last handful of years where the problem has seemed to amplify.

Vega got called multiple times for stalling before he was tied in the 3rd.  If Echemendia had gone bottom and gotten away then Vega wouldn't have been tied.  The refs weren't at fault for only calling multiple stalls. 

[Fletcher]

19 hours ago, MD152 said:

Hate to sound like a cry baby BUT,

Im old school (56 yrs old), my best days are behind me, with that being said i dont understand how some of the below thoughts are not called STALLING????  (in 1 paticular match over the weekend i counted a nationally ranked wrestler taking 74 steps backwards and 6 forward, he dropped to a knee or both knees with atleast 1 hand on the mat for a total of nearly 3 minutes and 15 seconds with zero intentions of attacking, take a look below and feel free to help me understand why we are seeing so much of the below tactics and should they be considered a form of stalling just as holding onto the leg/ankle for a 6 count is......

*going to one knee plus 1 hand and going backwards the entire match ... (note: 1 or 2 fake attempts at a shot/takedown is just that)

*going to 2 knees or switching knees plus 1 hand and going backwards the entire match .......

*CONSTANTLY hands to the forehead or head and face 

*backing up constantly THAN a quick circle in to avoid a stall call 

there are others but i am certain those on this forum all understand my thoughts, again I am an older school veteran wrestler, i like the unlimited "gas tanks", "popeye forearms" and "peg-board" workouts........ everyone knows I love all wrestling anyone who wrestles (spent time in the  war-room" has my support, no real favorites so i really dont favor this school or that school over another, my 2 favorite wrasslers are Snyder and Nolf with Kolat and Fried honorable mention, lol...... no need to name names on my end but why so many wrestlers dropping to the knee or the 3 point football stance or in many cases dropping to 2 knees, personally i think many times its a case where wrestlers who do this are tring to ride there match into OT and/or SV & TB........ all the same what say you all, would that/this be a form of STALLING and not wrestling, has wrestling change so much since my days that its now, "im not gonna try to win it in regulation"?? 

I'm old school because I think the match should be won by wrestlers scoring points instead of being given points by the ref.

Stall calls are inherently subjective and will always be called inconsistently, even by the best-intentioned ref. We need fewer stall calls, not more.

[Fletcher]

15 hours ago, BruceyB said:

I'm sure some will absolutely hate what I'm about to say here.

Referees should know the wrestlers who tend to "find themselves" in OT and TB regularly and be on the ready to call stalling. Tell both teams before the dual that you aren't going to watch two guys stare at each other for a match, and that if they don't wrestle, stalling is going to be called. If I'm an opposing coach and my wrestler is facing one of the guys who loves to drag a boring match to OT, I'm mentioning it to the ref beforehand and hoping he keeps a bit closer of an eye on things.

IMO it's a little bit like dirty hits in hockey. If you're a first time or rare offender, you might get away with a minor or at worst major penalty. But if you're a guy with a reputation you're likely to get a suspension.

We all know the guys that are guilty of doing nothing and dragging eventless matches to OT or ride outs. If that's your reputation, the refs shouldn't be afraid to have a shorter leash for your inactivity. If you don't like getting hit for stalling, you better start engaging because we've all had enough of it.

I was rooting for both Vega and Antrell to pull out the wins this past weekend, but I don't think either wrestler should have been tied or leading in the last 30 seconds of either match. Referees are so worried about "deciding" a match with a stall call that they have essentially allowed the stalling tactic to succeed because the wrestlers know the refs aren't likely to give the deciding point on a stall. Start hitting guys with stalling more frequently, and they'll adjust once they know they aren't going to be saved just because the ref doesn't "want" to call stalling to decide the match.

Not calling stalling only leads to more stalling. The more you allow wrestlers to avoid action, the more these guys will use these tactics. Make the tactics obsolete by calling them for what they are (stalling) and the problem goes away.

I also think a good fix is for referees to more often call stalling early in a match. The first one should be used as it is titled a "warning." Nothing happens to you the first time, it's just a way for the referee to say they expect more action from you. And once you've been warned, you better get going or know that you're going to give up a point.

Sorry. Thought train got rolling and ran away from me. But this topic has been on my mind a LOT, especially the last handful of years where the problem has seemed to amplify.

I think people have lost track of what stalling is. It's deliberately avoiding action.  You know it when you see it - moving backwards and downblocking when winning with short time on the clock.

Nonaction does not equal stalling. College wrestlers these days are excellent at keeping perfect positioning, particularly in the 1st period. That's not stalling. We shouldn't be using the ref to force wrestlers into taking bad shots out of fear of a stall call.

[Fletcher]

1 minute ago, Coastal said:

If you aren't going to call stalling, you might as well just start at rideouts.

Down block, backup backup...no one is going to score.

What you just described is classic stalling. You know it when you see it.

People want to see stall calls when there's windows of no scoring or when one wrestler is fighting off attack after attack. That's not stalling and wrestlers shouldn't be forced into taking bad shots just to satisfy the ref and the crowd. Just because Mesenbrink takes  20 shots per minute doesn't mean his opponent is stalling.

[boconnell]

43 minutes ago, Coastal said:

 

Stalling is when a wrestler isn't trying to score.  Fending off shot after shot without shooting is stalling.   Vega vs Echemedia is an example.  Ech would have been up 4-1 or won by DQ if the ref had the cajones to call stalling.  Ferrari vs Mirasola was even more egregious.  I can't fathom how he wasn't hit multiple times.   Elam/Merrill was another case.  Elam's pick up, stand for a while and then walk out was stalling by every definition anyone could apply.

I think a lot of top stalling happens but with the riding time point makes that moot as they are working to score.  The only problem I have with stalling being called too much is when someone is being ridden.  Double boots in and wrist control and the bottom guy gets hit like he has a bunch of options.

This is an embarrassing take.  Vega and Echemendia was not the match you are pretending.  You either didn't watch it or you are remembering it wrong.

1st period.  Vega goes out of bounds once.  Echemendia takes 1 shot and Vega counters without going out.  Vega takes one shot and Echemendia counters with a front headlock that goes nowhere.  End of period.

2nd period.   Vega takes a half shot.  Echemendia gets the better of some hand fighting but takes no shots, and the ref calls Vega for stalling.  Vega takes 2 more half shots as they handfight for the rest of the period.  Vega doesn't go out of bounds and Echemendia doesn't take a shot for the whole period.  It's 2 minutes straight without a break of Echemendia controlling ties and Vega backing and circling while staying engaged and never going out.  And he rightly gets warned for stalling.

3rd period.  Vega down and released.  Echemendia gets a very deep shot that Vega counters in the center of the mat.  Echemendia with another deep shot at 1:15 that vega counters in the center of the mat.  Echemendia works an underhook into a seat belt that is countered with a whizzer twice.  Both guys are in the center for all of that.  Vega gets called for stalling during the exchange to tie the score.  At 30 seconds Echemendia attempts a shot and Vega counters for a TD and the lead, then he rides him out for the win.

Echemendia takes 1 shot in the 1st, 1 shot in the 2nd, and 3 shots in the 3rd.  Vega goes out of bounds 1 time the whole match.  He takes a number of bad/half shots when he is getting backed up.  He counters 1 of Echemendia's 5 shots into a TD.  The idea that Vega should have been DQd for stalling is laughable.  Go watch the match again and tell us that with a straight face. 

There is plenty of stalling in the sport.  Your soapbox rant against stalling has plenty of matches to use as example.  There was a ton of stalling in that dual.  This match had a bit of stalling and it got called twice.  This match was perfectly officiated.  There is no world where the official is to blame.  There is no world where the official somehow kept it from being 4-1 Ech or a DQ.  You are using the wrong match to climb your soapbox.  Use any of the last 4 matches of that dual if you want to complain about stalling. 

[Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Coastal said:

 

Stalling is when a wrestler isn't trying to score.  Fending off shot after shot without shooting is stalling.   Vega vs Echemedia is an example.  Ech would have been up 4-1 or won by DQ if the ref had the cajones to call stalling.  Ferrari vs Mirasola was even more egregious.  I can't fathom how he wasn't hit multiple times.   Elam/Merrill was another case.  Elam's pick up, stand for a while and then walk out was stalling by every definition anyone could apply.

I think a lot of top stalling happens but with the riding time point makes that moot as they are working to score.  The only problem I have with stalling being called too much is when someone is being ridden.  Double boots in and wrist control and the bottom guy gets hit like he has a bunch of options.

Just to show you how subjective stalling is - I thought Merrill was the one stalling the whole match, not Elam. Subjective decisions by the ref should not be deciding matches.