Boring Dual

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

125 and 133 had exciting action…

184 had...well...action.

[Offthemat]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

184 had...well...action.

So you were bored?  Stiff?

[dragit]

16 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

125 and 133 had exciting action…

The best, most exciting wrestler in the country and a special 2x champ whose opponent forgot the game plan. Followed by very little action. 

Look, as someone who follows and loves the sport, I can find some good stuff in several of those other matches.  But this product just isn't anywhere near what it should be.  There is simply too much of top athletes just circling each other for 3 minutes at the beginning of every match.  What is the point of the 3 minute first period?  I'd rather watch 2 minutes of light sparring than 3 minutes of light sparring.  

[Offthemat]

That’s a timely good point because I was just going to suggest that because so many of today’s wrestlers can’t get in good enough condition to wrestle seven minutes, shorten the first period by one minute and have a 30 second break between each period.  Let the wrestlers catch a breath and let the coaches coach. 

10 minutes ago, dragit said:

The best, most exciting wrestler in the country and a special 2x champ whose opponent forgot the game plan. Followed by very little action. 

Look, as someone who follows and loves the sport, I can find some good stuff in several of those other matches.  But this product just isn't anywhere near what it should be.  There is simply too much of top athletes just circling each other for 3 minutes at the beginning of every match.  What is the point of the 3 minute first period?  I'd rather watch 2 minutes of light sparring than 3 minutes of light sparring.  

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

So you were bored?  Stiff?

The comment I posted when I saw Iowa was sending out a 171 lb kid at 184 was "lamb to the slaughter". After the match I posted "that was hard to watch". And it was. I found my attention drifting during that match. So, yeah, I guess it was boring. Hell, the Iowa coaches looked pretty bored, too. You could here Terry Brands telling Rhodes, "get your one" when he was down 10 or 12 (I forget the exact moment, but it was late). And the fact you could hear that on the feed suggests the crowd was pretty bored too.

[Offthemat]

You’re right.  I heard that and I won’t tell you what my reaction was.  
 

It was well described in a link in an earlier post.  Iowa wrestling like PSU might step on a banana peel and PSU wrestling like that was okay with them.  It was not the kind of match that would promote more interest in the sport.  It was barely interesting to us replete connoisseurs, much less to the maddening crowds.  Maybe it’s because it didn’t mean anything.  Conference duals don’t mean anything anymore than non conference duals.  The only thing that matters is the conference tournament, to a degree, and nationals. 

[dragit]

16 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

That’s a timely good point because I was just going to suggest that because so many of today’s wrestlers can’t get in good enough condition to wrestle seven minutes, shorten the first period by one minute and have a 30 second break between each period.  Let the wrestlers catch a breath and let the coaches coach. 

 

Could help.  People give Lee a hard time for a few times gassing.  Way better to see him going hard from the whistle and getting tired than watching guys conserving energy.  Your idea of 2-2-2 could capture some of the benefit of freestyle 3-3 with more aggressiveness and risk taking.  

[Nailbender]

Points are for wusses. Pin to win, however long it takes. I'm only mostly kidding.

[Offthemat]

6 minutes ago, Nailbender said:

Points are for wusses. Pin to win, however long it takes. I'm only mostly kidding.

I think that was the original rule.  Not the ncaa, but Athens. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Offthemat

[Nailbender]

    When wrestlers are in neutral, they are on both offense and defense. I give latitude. When a wrestler is on bottom, he is on defense and trying to get on top or back to neutral, I give latitude. When a wrestler is on top, they are on offense. They should act like it. The goal of wrestling to me, the ultimate victory, is to pin your opponent.

 

      This isn't to say you can't be stalling in all of the positions but this is my basic thought process. Stalling on top is ruining folkstyle wrestling for me. Which is crazy because I love watching a real hammer from the top position more than anything.

 

 

 

 

[Scouts Honor]

fan 1: man did you see that catch that julio made in the super bowl last night? it was amazing..how the hell he got both feet down...

fan 2: i know right, but he went out of bounds and that's a point, so the patriots won in regulation, they didn't have to go to overtime.

[TylerDurden]

I don't know that there needs to be a wholesale alteration of the rules, but I would be in favor or reevaluating the value each scoring move holds. 

Changing the point value changes how people wrestle. I would guess that if you increased the value of a takedown to 3 points and increased the penalty for stalling to 2 points, you'd see a different approach to a match. 

 

 

 

 

[Elevator]

20 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

I don't know that there needs to be a wholesale alteration of the rules, but I would be in favor or reevaluating the value each scoring move holds. 

Changing the point value changes how people wrestle. I would guess that if you increased the value of a takedown to 3 points and increased the penalty for stalling to 2 points, you'd see a different approach to a match. 

 

 

 

 

I like this idea and the idea of 2 min first period with short breaks (maybe :30) between periods.  It might increase action.  Maybe for OT only, adopt a push out rule.  Too much tactical hard collar ties, clubbing, and control ties to slow matches.  

[Elevator]

18 hours ago, dragit said:

The big one is the pushout.  They need to try it. No one can guarantee it will work, but it was very good in freestyle and it makes sense that it would help in folkstyle.

The lack of action in neutral Friday, and generally in big college matches, is greatly holding back the sport.  It's so bad that the rides are actually better to watch than neutral wrestling.  

And I wouldn't mind combining it with a shot clock when no Pointe scored. 

I am ok with trying it in OT only, as it is slightly better way to determing the match than relative riding time.

[Scouts Honor]

there are still boring matches in freestyle

i watched sidakov in his final at yaryguin (spell)

they moved from the center maybe once. I didn't see a single attempt of any kind in the first period. both got a passive

in the second there was one shot that got finished... and then they walked around for another few minutes feigning ties and collars...

both would have been stalled out in a folkstyle match.

[ionel]

What if we put an 8' hoop in 2 opposite corners and a volleyball in each of the other 2 corners.  If no scoring for 1 minute a bell rings and the first wrestler to grab a ball and dunk it in the hoop gains a point (2pts for a flip dunk - think Fix, Gable, Caldwell) then back to wrestling.  That'd spice it up don't ya think. 

[Holtfan]

17 hours ago, Framer614 said:

How do you decide whether it was an offensive or defensive TD?  It can't just be "who shoots", as there are many a good counter attacks which could be deemed 'offensive' attacks. 
Example:  Wrestler A attempts a shot, and Wrestler B performs a beautiful slide-by on the attempt.  A slide-by could be considered an offensive move. 

If you go by who shoots, and I am up by 2pts, I am going to shoot wildly knowing that if the other guy gets the TD, he's only going to get a point for it.  And I've just successfully drained a lot of clock.   

Just my view from the cheap seats.......

[Scouts Honor]

as holtfan so elequently pointed out

guys/coaches etc are going to game the rules... 

change for change doesn't always work 

[El Luchador]

59 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

How do you decide whether it was an offensive or defensive TD?  It can't just be "who shoots", as there are many a good counter attacks which could be deemed 'offensive' attacks. 
Example:  Wrestler A attempts a shot, and Wrestler B performs a beautiful slide-by on the attempt.  A slide-by could be considered an offensive move. 

If you go by who shoots, and I am up by 2pts, I am going to shoot wildly knowing that if the other guy gets the TD, he's only going to get a point for it.  And I've just successfully drained a lot of clock.   

Just my view from the cheap seats.......

If you're offense relies on your opponents attack first, then you most certainly are passive. Forcing a response is different,  such as when I have a dominant tie like a 2 on 1 and I react to your response to my tie. But all to often we see a guy block and sag and back off the mat and the refs allow it.  

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

as holtfan so elequently pointed out

guys/coaches etc are going to game the rules... 

change for change doesn't always work 

The brick is a good example of this, I've see many example.  A classic case: A takes down B and been is flat on the mat clearly going to be on bottom for 30+ sec, maybe thru end of period.  Coach B throws a brick to question that the takedown was called early.  Now even if B loses the case he is still going to get a restart so good chance of escape thus no/minimum riding time.  B may win the challenge even though A would've got the takedow a couple seconds later, thus no TD back to neutral.  Its also a good lung time out brick, that flat wrestler wasn't getting out due to lung issue but give him a two minute break and different story.  Questing locked hands also works.   Lot of coaches using the strategic brick.  

My view: the current rules are working fine but I hate the brick.  

[Holtfan]

8 minutes ago, ionel said:

The brick is a good example of this,

Just witnessed this yesterday in the Northwester/Rutgers dual where the coach tossed the brick to question a 5-count (I think that's what it was) He didn't do it because he felt the call was incorrect, it did it to give his wrestler a lung-timeout.  Heck, even the announcers said as much. 

[Holtfan]

11 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

If you're offense relies on your opponents attack first......

That is not what I said---I said "What if Wrestler A shoots, and Wrestler-B executes a Slide-By" ??  Wrestler-B is not relying on anything, he is reacting and hitting his offensive move.  What was proposed was giving 1 point for a Defensive TD. So.....was Wrester-B's TD an offensive or defensive TD? 

We already have issues with subjective officiating without tossing complications like this into the mix. 

Just my view from the cheap seats........

[LJB]

less rules...

not more...

[PNWfan]

20 hours ago, dragit said:

The big one is the pushout.  They need to try it. No one can guarantee it will work, but it was very good in freestyle and it makes sense that it would help in folkstyle.

The lack of action in neutral Friday, and generally in big college matches, is greatly holding back the sport.  It's so bad that the rides are actually better to watch than neutral wrestling.  

And I wouldn't mind combining it with a shot clock when no Pointe scored. 

Totally agree. The way Starocci went about winning his match was borderline shameful. No fault to him I suppose that the rules are the way they are, but that match, other than the dance-off at the end, was absolutely dreadful to watch. Something needs to change.

[Holtfan]

1 minute ago, LJB said:

less rules...

not more...

Or.....better yet.....

Enforce the rules already in place (or in other words, call STALLING as it's designed to be called)