How Do YOU Score This?

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

First, let me note for the record that I am the biggest homer around. The ILLINI are always right. You, who are not ILLINI, are always wrong. That's a true fact. 

Second, the broadcasters of the ILLINI/NW dual were fooled. One of the broadcasters is a Northwestern wrestler on their team. The ref actually awarded four back points to DeAugustino. This came at a crucial time in the dual--the last match-- with the ILLINI winning. DeAugustino would go on to get a major decision and tie up the final score at 17-17. 

Third, it appears that Maximo Renteria pushed off with his feet to put DeAugustino in danger.

Fourth, it appears that Maximo then reached back with one, then both, hands to elevate DeAugustino's head. This served to move the Wildcat's shoulder blades onto the mat.

Fifth, DeAugustino's shoulder blades were flat on the mat for more than the requisite time for a pinfall. Maybe two. 

Sixth, I don't believe that Maximo's shoulder was ever on the mat! 

Finally, I realize a defensive fall call in the other team's gym is a long shot. But, I also know the refs have really emphasized the danger rule. If not a fall, then didn't Maximo put DeAugustino in danger? I thought the ref was very fair the entire match, but he got this call wrong. What do you think? 

Edited January 21, 2023 by ILLINIWrestlingBlog

[gimpeltf]

Not sure what you mean by the danger rule here. If you mean what is often called the Heil rule- that's only from neutral.

Hard to say about a defensive fall given the camera angles At 0:35 you can see his right shoulder up- can't tell about the bottom of scapula though. A few seconds later although rotated away from good view, it does appear he had the right shoulder sucked up again.

Maximo's shoulder doesn't need to be on the mat for a near fall. Bridging on the head works and if both shoulder are close enough (4 inches).

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

I blame the crappy BTN video. They buy their electrons for their electronics on the black market from Hong Kong. Nothing jumps around or gets fuzzier than a BTN+ replay.

The fact that neither of Maximo's shoulder blades are close to the mat goes to emphasize the fact that both DeAugustino's shoulder blades were glued to the mat. Cheers!

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

P.S. Maximo is on top of DeAugustino's chest. Do you think DeAugustino's chest is more or less than four inches deep?

Crazy call.

[ionel]

That's definitely a pin or a fall, take your pick, no "pinfall."

As said, there's no "danger" as its not a neutral position but NW wrestler was flat as could be, its a pin.  

Edited January 21, 2023 by ionel

[gimpeltf]

2 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

P.S. Maximo is on top of DeAugustino's chest. Do you think DeAugustino's chest is more or less than four inches deep?

Crazy call.

But he was in a high bridge. Near fall criteria.

[ionel]

BTW: did I mention that both Maximo & Byrd have been hanging out at Merry Ann's and DeAugustino was as flat as a pancake.

 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

15 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

But he was in a high bridge. Near fall criteria.

He wasn't bridging defensively, he was pinning offensively. Just need refs with the agility to get in position to call it and the courage to call it against the home team.

On another note, I mentioned above that Maximo visibly pushed off with both feet to get DeAugustino's shoulders to the mat. I know refs look at who initiates the action in freestyle. I also know it doesn't matter in folkstyle except for this: It should be a Bat Signal to refs that the bottom man is going for the defensive fall. Get in position!

Final question: Can you be awarded near fall points while you are pinned?

 

[Major Kong]

As the resident NU fan, I would like to acknowledge the fantastic job the visionary refs did under difficult circumstances to recognize a fake pin and reward the deserving D'aug and the team.

[gimpeltf]

6 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

He wasn't bridging defensively, he was pinning offensively. Just need refs with the agility to get in position to call it and the courage to call it against the home team.

On another note, I mentioned above that Maximo visibly pushed off with both feet to get DeAugustino's shoulders to the mat. I know refs look at who initiates the action in freestyle. I also know it doesn't matter in folkstyle except for this: It should be a Bat Signal to refs that the bottom man is going for the defensive fall. Get in position!

Final question: Can you be awarded near fall points while you are pinned?

 

Only pinned if called. He might have been working to get the defensive fall but it was obvious offense put him towards his back and held him.

[ionel]

I again present Exhibit A.  Which pancake is pinned flat to the plate, the one on top or the one on bottom?  I rest my case.

[D3 for LU]

Stop it, you're making me hungry for some flapjacks, dammit!

D3

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Not sure what you mean by the danger rule here. If you mean what is often called the Heil rule- that's only from neutral.

Hard to say about a defensive fall given the camera angles At 0:35 you can see his right shoulder up- can't tell about the bottom of scapula though. A few seconds later although rotated away from good view, it does appear he had the right shoulder sucked up again.

Maximo's shoulder doesn't need to be on the mat for a near fall. Bridging on the head works and if both shoulder are close enough (4 inches).

I do not have the ncaa rulebook handy, but a "high bridge" alone is good enough for high school NF.  I assume it is the same rule in college.  4" is a separate  criteria.

[Offthemat]

Isn’t there a rule that the upper pancake has to announce to the ref his intention to go for the defensive pinfall for it to qualify?

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Isn’t there a rule that the upper pancake has to announce to the ref his intention to go for the defensive pinfall for it to qualify?

You butter re-read the rules on that one.  

[Offthemat]

I see what syrup to. 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

Thanks to the folks here and on Twitter for correctly pointing out to me that the danger rule only applies in neutral.

Just know that I will not waffle on the pin.

[ionel]

The only defense the referee could possibly give is:  "it was late in the meet, I was tired, I closed my eyes for 4 seconds and didn't see it."  You can't call what you can't see.  But even our good @VakAttack would recuse himself before representing the ref with that lame excuse.  Poeeta should've hit him in the head with a biscuit.  

[Perry]

He looked pinned but that video is so bad I refused to try and watch it a second time to really evaluate it. Hard to believe big ten network has such junk tech.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

35 minutes ago, Perry said:

He looked pinned but that video is so bad I refused to try and watch it a second time to really evaluate it. Hard to believe big ten network has such junk tech.

That was "Illini Wrestling Forum" junk tech

NW appeared flat, but for how long in real time?  Can't tell with that video, which clearly slows down.

[gimpeltf]

8 hours ago, ionel said:

I again present Exhibit A.  Which pancake is pinned flat to the plate, the one on top or the one on bottom?  I rest my case.

This whole thread was half-baked!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

26 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

This whole thread was half-baked!

Cinnabon may do a better job

[MPhillips]

37 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

This whole thread was half-baked!

Me too...

[ionel]

11 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Cinnabon may do a better job

This is a pancake    thread, no pastries!