Weigh-ins

[MPhillips]

40 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Just tell us you want to talk about weight cutting.

No shortage of folks with opinions...

[ionel]

22 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

No shortage of folks with opinions...

... opinions are like ... oh nevermind  ... 

[NYupstate]

10 hours ago, boconnell said:

I think this entire thread is a setup.  But at least it's one to talk about a worthy subject.  

The thread starter claims to be brand new to the sport but found their way to this forum.  And as the thread has gone on they have talked about very specific wrestling things and even talked about listening to Jordan Burroughs on podcasts.  

Just tell us you want to talk about weight cutting.  Don't create a fake persona to present it.

I'm at a loss over this accusation. I will admit to having spent a lot (too much?) of time immersing myself in wrestling fandom the last 6 months or so. My wife is getting sick of every dinner table conversation turning that direction, but it is a way to draw out talk with an otherwise not-so-talkative teen. I want to support my kid in his interests, so I've watched some youtube videos with him and have him show me moves he's learning.

I found this forum on a link from the Reddit page. I posted here because it seems like the overall level of knowledge about the sport is higher on this forum than on Reddit, not that there aren't a few knowledgeable people over there too.

My son is currently obsessed with getting better at wrestling so I thought it would be interesting to listen to one of the best talk about it as we drove to a youth tournament. It doesn't take very long on Youtube to figure out who some of the greats are. Though if you want to plumb the depths of my ignorance just ask me about international wrestlers who didn't do college in the US. I can't keep any of their names in my head.

I looked around on the bigger podcasts and found a few interviews. Burroughs on Rogan was one of the them.

But I guess it doesn't really matter that much whether you believe me. This is the internet after all. 

[1032004]

15 hours ago, NYupstate said:

Huh, interesting.

I would have thought the detrimental performance effects of dehydrated competing would be a deterrent to cutting those last few pounds. You're absolutely right that the risk of injury (concussion particularly) is a lot higher when one is dehydrated.

I do think matside weigh ins would result in less weight cutting overall.  But I also think it makes it more dangerous for those that will I’m sure will continue to do it.

[boconnell]

3 hours ago, NYupstate said:

I'm at a loss over this accusation. I will admit to having spent a lot (too much?) of time immersing myself in wrestling fandom the last 6 months or so. My wife is getting sick of every dinner table conversation turning that direction, but it is a way to draw out talk with an otherwise not-so-talkative teen. I want to support my kid in his interests, so I've watched some youtube videos with him and have him show me moves he's learning.

I found this forum on a link from the Reddit page. I posted here because it seems like the overall level of knowledge about the sport is higher on this forum than on Reddit, not that there aren't a few knowledgeable people over there too.

My son is currently obsessed with getting better at wrestling so I thought it would be interesting to listen to one of the best talk about it as we drove to a youth tournament. It doesn't take very long on Youtube to figure out who some of the greats are. Though if you want to plumb the depths of my ignorance just ask me about international wrestlers who didn't do college in the US. I can't keep any of their names in my head.

I looked around on the bigger podcasts and found a few interviews. Burroughs on Rogan was one of the them.

But I guess it doesn't really matter that much whether you believe me. This is the internet after all. 

Maybe I just have a hard time believing that a beginner parent would start a thread saying they don't know anything and they're just here to ask questions, but by page two they'd be preaching to a bunch of lifers.  But I guess that could be exactly what this is.  It is the internet after all.

You start out with questions and ask to be enlightened.  But you have arguments locked and loaded and a very dismissive attitude for anybody who even slightly disagrees with you.  So you're either a fake persona to present an argument, or your initial post was a falsely humble way to introduce a subject where you want to tell us how wrong we are.  

Edited Sunday at 02:34 PM by boconnell

[Dark Energy]

So you feel, upon reflection, those are the only two possibilities.  Interesting.  

[Dark Energy]

@pmilk - thanks for the long post and details.  Sounds like some great discipline and some adults that really cared.  Even then, you mentioned (implied?) that you still did some not allowed activity (plastics / sauna).  Expecting also with some degree of oversight.  
 

I would agree that reducing weight smartly isn’t the black eye.  It’s the dumb approaches, the dumb people, the horror stories that kids tell, what the parents see, what the friends see and hear.   I’ve been around the sport for a while.  There are many (many many) true a$$hole parents (and some coaches) that live vicariously through the kids and put ridiculous pressure on them.  They demand ridiculous actions and treat them like crap if they don’t comply.  Weight cutting is an example category for this.

I would suggest that if there was a way to get rid of or otherwise ‘fix’ this cancer in the community, weight cutting wouldn’t be such a black eye.  I figure it is very hard to do this though.  Thus my preference to go to mat side weight ins.

i believe weight management would STILL be important.  All that you mentioned would still be helpful.  But the extremes will be removed as people VERY quickly realize that big cuts are counter productive to success on mat.

[NYupstate]

23 hours ago, boconnell said:

Maybe I just have a hard time believing that a beginner parent would start a thread saying they don't know anything and they're just here to ask questions, but by page two they'd be preaching to a bunch of lifers.  But I guess that could be exactly what this is.  It is the internet after all.

You start out with questions and ask to be enlightened.  But you have arguments locked and loaded and a very dismissive attitude for anybody who even slightly disagrees with you.  So you're either a fake persona to present an argument, or your initial post was a falsely humble way to introduce a subject where you want to tell us how wrong we are.  

Haha! Knowledgeable sock puppet account is a little more flattering than arrogant know-it-all newbie. You didn't offer it, but I'll continue to take the position of, "concerned parent who thinks wrestling is great and would like rules that make it the best sport it can be". Clearly there are strong opinions around what those rules should be.

I do have opinions because of what I've seen already, and the story after story I've heard from people about their experiences. I've only been around wrestling for a short time and I've heard several stories that make me queasy and/or angry. 

I think the worst of the worst cutting could be reduced with mat side weigh-ins and I wanted to hear reasons for why this is not standard practice in matches. Elevated risk of injury seems to be the big one. I am glad 1032004 brought to my attention that there would be some people who'd take the chance and compete while dehydrated, thus putting themselves at higher risk.  

[boconnell]

41 minutes ago, NYupstate said:

Haha! Knowledgeable sock puppet account is a little more flattering than arrogant know-it-all newbie. You didn't offer it, but I'll continue to take the position of, "concerned parent who thinks wrestling is great and would like rules that make it the best sport it can be". Clearly there are strong opinions around what those rules should be.

I do have opinions because of what I've seen already, and the story after story I've heard from people about their experiences. I've only been around wrestling for a short time and I've heard several stories that make me queasy and/or angry. 

I think the worst of the worst cutting could be reduced with mat side weigh-ins and I wanted to hear reasons for why this is not standard practice in matches. Elevated risk of injury seems to be the big one. I am glad 1032004 brought to my attention that there would be some people who'd take the chance and compete while dehydrated, thus putting themselves at higher risk.  

I just thought the 'aw shucks' intro followed by immediately knowing everything already was weird/unlikely.  If you wanted to tell everybody how to fix weight cutting then you should have just done it.  Instead you asked for opinions and told them they were wrong.  I honestly think a few months is long enough to know that weight cutting is dumb, so just say it. 

And matside weigh-ins are definitely the best cure for weight cutting.  But I think the current rule set addresses it well enough that I would not want to add a logistical nightmare to the already nightmarish events that are an average HS wrestling tournament.  Weigh-ins always allow a wrestler to challenge on all scales because of small variances.  Imagine a kid steps up to wrestle and has to check all 6 scales in two gyms because he's a few tenths over and might make it on a different scale.  So the ref has to follow him to every mat and wrestling has to stop on that mat until they are done.  This would happen multiple times in an average HS tournament.  An average HS tournament has about 300-400 matches.  If you add a minute for every match to weigh in two kids, spread across 6 mats, you've added 50+ minutes.  Plus all of the time added when a kid misses weight or challenges weight.  You'd lengthen already brutally long tournaments by well over an hour.  I'd be fine with that if I thought the current rule set was failing to address weight cutting, but I think the current rule system is okay at that.  I think kids who cut weight pay a price already.  I think smart coaches already discourage it in HS kids.  The very best HS kids in the country have basically stopped cutting weight altogether.  They go up in weight for competition far more than they drop to be bigger.  

[jross]

22 minutes ago, boconnell said:

because he's a few tenths over and might make it on a different scale. 

In my view, a wrestler who’s just a few tenths over on a vetted scale should either move up to the next weight class or cut weight safely to avoid risk at their targeted weight class.  The answer should be "have discipline next time" before the event rather than "find another scale."

 

Edited 17 hours ago by jross

[jross]

Many successful wrestlers have had a bad cut before...

Who are wrestlers we've known to have poor matches off the scale or during their last match before an evening weigh in?

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, jross said:

In my view, a wrestler who’s just a few tenths over on a vetted scale should either move up to the next weight class or cut weight safely to avoid risk at their targeted weight class.  The answer should be "have discipline next time" before the event rather than "find another scale."

 

This is massively unrealistic.  Regardless of what you think kids should do, many will be close to weight.  Even vetted scales will always be slightly different.  You can't ignore that and still have weight classes.  There is a zero percent chance that weigh ins will ever be changed to where wrestlers can't check all of the available scales.  Matside weigh-ins will 100% include every kid who misses being walked around to every mat by the ref and whoever is recording the weights.  I understand if you think that is worth it and necessary.  I'm not sure you'd be wrong.  But to just pretend it away is make believe.

Edited 15 hours ago by boconnell

[Formally140]

I say the same thing every time this comes up. As long as we're honest that this will lead to increased amounts of forfeits. Go ahead and do it. 
 

but don't pretend it won't. People when discussing things/changes/issues for wrestling always pretend that the obvious consequences won't happen or who cares because I'm spending a bunch of money for my kid. 
 

Do I personally think mat side weigh ins really will help that much.. no. But there will be more forfeits 

[davenowa]

just checking the math of adding 40-50 minutes (seems high) to walk a few kids to 6-8 different scales vs not needing to be at the tournament 2.5 hours before it starts to allow an hour for weigh ins and an hour to rehydrate...still seems like a net savings to me.

[boconnell]

24 minutes ago, davenowa said:

just checking the math of adding 40-50 minutes (seems high) to walk a few kids to 6-8 different scales vs not needing to be at the tournament 2.5 hours before it starts to allow an hour for weigh ins and an hour to rehydrate...still seems like a net savings to me.

For a 16 man bracket it will take 50+ minutes just for the actual matside weighins throughout the day.  That has nothing to do with walking kids around.  That's just assuming it will take 30 seconds per kid and a minute total for weighins for each of the 300-400 matches (spread on 6 mats).  I think realistically it's longer, but that's the low end.  Kids who miss weight and kids who have to check scales is completely separate and additional.  The good news from a time perspective is if they miss weight than they forfeit and speed things up. 

But you are right that we could skip the early weigh in and make up that time.  It's probably a wash from a timing perspective.  Instead of 30 minutes for weighins and 60-90 for bracketing beforehand, you just end up spreading that time out throughout the day.  So not longer like I said.  I was wrong about that.  

Edited 13 hours ago by boconnell

[gimpeltf]

There are other logistics to consider. Assuming we don't have a perfect power of two sized bracket- who weighs in when? Even if you did- some people will weighin later than others. But if you did have uneven brackets it could be hours of difference between second round opponents.

[Caveira]

4 hours ago, jross said:

In my view, a wrestler who’s just a few tenths over on a vetted scale should either move up to the next weight class or cut weight safely to avoid risk at their targeted weight class.  The answer should be "have discipline next time" before the event rather than "find another scale."

 

This will eliminate 110% of weight cutting and will never happen.   It is beyond impractical.   

[jross]

13 minutes ago, Caveira said:

This will eliminate 110% of weight cutting and will never happen.   It is beyond impractical.   

A culture obsessed with strength over technique...

[Caveira]

23 minutes ago, jross said:

A culture obsessed with strength over technique...

You can eliminate unsafe weight cuts.  You can’t eliminate weight cuts.   

[pmilk]

Dark E...First, my dad never told anyone what weight they had to wrestle. The wts were quite different back then. 98, 107, 115, 123, 132, 138, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, Hvy.  They varied slightly every few years. Everyone decided what weight they wanted to wrestle and if they couldn't make the team at, say, 123...they could cut to 115 or bump up to 132. Second, our pre-season conditioning was a key factor in knocking off fat without really decreasing food intake. My dad encouraged  all of us was to stop the soda pop (replace that with water or milk), candy/chips/junk food, and to stick with healthier and lower calorie "junk food," like raw vegetables and lots of fruit, salads, cottage cheese, poached eggs/toast/tea, etc. He was really way ahead of his peers in not just technique and how to run an effective practice, but how to manage weight loss with virtually no negative effect in strength, stamina, and health. My personal belief was that I wanted to cut weight to be bigger than my opponents without sacrificing any of the other performance factors..If I could drop 10-15 lbs, or whatever, I would x-pounds faster, stronger, and larger than my opponents. I would have a distinct advantage.  Yeah, being honest, I fell off the wagon early on and did the dumb stuff, but it was rare...I don't like cutting corners. Do things right all the time.  Like I said, pretty much everyone has some fat they can live without, but discipline must support the education.  I have yet to meet a former wrestler that cut wt. who doesn't look like they fell on an air pump since their competition days....I also know of none who ended up anorexic.