Rumor has it Bo is giving back his hodge

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Lee won the fan vote by a huge margin, 5:1 (25,712 to 5,202)

They referenced multiple committee members voting for co-winners.

Two years before they released the number of Nolf/Nickal co-votes, but not this year.

Askren voted for both... then was mad when Spencer and Gable split the award.  

WIN is an Iowa-centric publication...

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, okokzach said:

No, you made a separate argument saying you can imagine a circumstance where a pin comes in a non-dominant fashion. 

You did not contend with my argument for why a dominating wrestler would choose to get 5 points if he is capable of getting 6 points. 

I didn't envision Rob Rohn, I...visioned him with my actual eyes. 

I also didn't envision Mendez and Hardy. 

Did Tony Ramos dominate Spencer Lee, or was it a big move at the end of the match?

 

I don't know how to make this any simpler. Taking someone down repeatedly...against their will...is more dominant than a pin. That's my take. I "contended" with your argument, I've made mine. What exactly do you suppose we'll gain if we keep going in circles here? And I KNOW you're playing dumb because...you can obviously make a lot of stupid arguments. 

 

Why didn't Tony Ramos just CHOOSE to be up by 12 points going into the 3rd period vs Lee, or with did Rohn CHOOSE to get down in the match? This choice thing is nonsense.

I think beating someone by 15 points or more...is more dominant than a pin. That's it. That's the end of my entire opinion on this. You can accept it or not, you can't say I didn't "contend" with your argument or point or that I ignored it. 

[okokzach]

53 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I didn't envision Rob Rohn, I...visioned him with my actual eyes. 

I also didn't envision Mendez and Hardy. 

Did Tony Ramos dominate Spencer Lee, or was it a big move at the end of the match?

 

I don't know how to make this any simpler. Taking someone down repeatedly...against their will...is more dominant than a pin. That's my take. I "contended" with your argument, I've made mine. What exactly do you suppose we'll gain if we keep going in circles here? And I KNOW you're playing dumb because...you can obviously make a lot of stupid arguments. 

 

Why didn't Tony Ramos just CHOOSE to be up by 12 points going into the 3rd period vs Lee, or with did Rohn CHOOSE to get down in the match? This choice thing is nonsense.

I think beating someone by 15 points or more...is more dominant than a pin. That's it. That's the end of my entire opinion on this. You can accept it or not, you can't say I didn't "contend" with your argument or point or that I ignored it. 

 

We're not talking about one-offs. We're talking about a season of dominance. If one guy gets 100% pins for the season and another guy gets 100% techs for the season, you're telling me the pinner was less dominant? 

[ionel]

13 minutes ago, okokzach said:

 

We're not talking about one-offs. We're talking about a season of dominance. If one guy gets 100% pins for the season and another guy gets 100% techs for the season, you're telling me the pinner was less dominant? 

Likewise a tech is less dominate than a major cause you didn't wrestle the full 7 min match.  The BEST wrestlers always wrestle 7 minutes.  

[scourge165]

30 minutes ago, okokzach said:

 

We're not talking about one-offs. We're talking about a season of dominance. If one guy gets 100% pins for the season and another guy gets 100% techs for the season, you're telling me the pinner was less dominant? 

Yeah, I'm talking about exactly what I'm talking about and you not liking it...I feel like you think that has a bigger impact than it does.

Did you not say we're not talking about some scenario I "envision?"

I think a tech is more dominant(picture that like black twitter where someone puts clapping hands in between each word as I don't care to). 

 

22-6 vs a pin in a 3-2 match. 

LOL...I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp here. Tell me again which is worth more in a duel(which I guess makes a FF more impressive also!)

[okokzach]

7 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah, I'm talking about exactly what I'm talking about and you not liking it...I feel like you think that has a bigger impact than it does.

Did you not say we're not talking about some scenario I "envision?"

I think a tech is more dominant(picture that like black twitter where someone puts clapping hands in between each word as I don't care to). 

 

22-6 vs a pin in a 3-2 match. 

LOL...I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp here. Tell me again which is worth more in a duel(which I guess makes a FF more impressive also!)

The context of the discussion is about an award for most dominant season.

I asked you two questions and you answered neither. 

1. Why would a dominant wrestler choose not get 6 points if he is capable of doing so?
2. If Wrestler A has a 100% pin rate for a full season, and Wrestler B has a 100% tech rate for a full season, is Wrestler A less dominant than Wrestler B?

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, okokzach said:

The context of the discussion is about an award for most dominant season.

I asked you two questions and you answered neither. 

1. Why would a dominant wrestler choose not get 6 points if he is capable of doing so?
2. If Wrestler A has a 100% pin rate for a full season, and Wrestler B has a 100% tech rate for a full season, is Wrestler A less dominant than Wrestler B?

I know which one will win the hodge.  

[PortaJohn]

17 minutes ago, okokzach said:

If Wrestler A has a 100% pin rate for a full season, and Wrestler B has a 100% tech rate for a full season, is Wrestler A less dominant than Wrestler B?

It depends.  If wrestler A is trailing in all his matches and hitting haily mary pins then yes wrestler B is more dominant.  There are a lot of bright wrestling minds that argue techs are a more dominant way of winning.  It displays that you have more control over your opponent.  Just food for thought

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

It depends.  If wrestler A is trailing in all his matches and hitting haily mary pins then yes wrestler B is more dominant.  There are a lot of bright wrestling minds that argue techs are a more dominant way of winning.  It displays that you have more control over your opponent.  Just food for thought

But what if you get the major and tech points before the pin?  

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

But what if you get the major and tech points before the pin?  

Then you're a stud 

[scourge165]

30 minutes ago, okokzach said:

The context of the discussion is about an award for most dominant season.

I asked you two questions and you answered neither. 

1. Why would a dominant wrestler choose not get 6 points if he is capable of doing so?
2. If Wrestler A has a 100% pin rate for a full season, and Wrestler B has a 100% tech rate for a full season, is Wrestler A less dominant than Wrestler B?

The context was me saying a tech is more dominant than a pin. That was the context. 

Because it's more dominant. 22-6 looks better than a fall

You might have to just...live with me not agreeing with you here. I know this may seem crazy...

2-No, we're not talking about scenarios we "envision," remember? You didn't like that, right?

I can name dozens of times a Wrestler got "pinned," without getting dominated. I can't think of a tech fall that wasn't a dominant win. Remember that "dominant" Nick Piccininni win over Spencer Lee? 

Yeah...I don't either.

28 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I know which one will win the hodge.  

Yeah, the one who beats Gable Stevenson. As it stands, it almost didn't as the committee voted for Starocci. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:36 PM by scourge165

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

But what if you get the major and tech points before the pin?  

 

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

Then you're a stud 

The tech pin is the ultimate display of dominance.  Especially when finished with a Saturday Night Ride

[scourge165]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

But what if you get the major and tech points before the pin?  

Then that's the most dominant obviously. 

Especially if you're doing it at HWT(the Techs) as very few score points. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

 

The tech pin is the ultimate display of dominance.  Especially when finished with a Saturday Night Ride

How about a leg cradle while smiling for the camera?

[PortaJohn]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How about a leg cradle while smiling for the camera?

œuvre d'art

[MPhillips]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How about a leg cradle while smiling for the camera?

She'll pay for that...

[Caveira]

45 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

The context was me saying a tech is more dominant than a pin. That was the context. 

Because it's more dominant. 22-6 looks better than a fall

You might have to just...live with me not agreeing with you here. I know this may seem crazy...

2-No, we're not talking about scenarios we "envision," remember? You didn't like that, right?

I can name dozens of times a Wrestler got "pinned," without getting dominated. I can't think of a tech fall that wasn't a dominant win. Remember that "dominant" Nick Piccininni win over Spencer Lee? 

Yeah...I don't either.

Yeah, the one who beats Gable Stevenson. As it stands, it almost didn't as the committee voted for Starocci. 

I mean.  We almost lost ww2 but we didn’t.   I mean can we say Carter almost lost to keck 4-3.   Is that subjective?   I’ll re word it.  He almost wasn’t a finalist for the hodge because he almost lost to keck.  

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I mean.  We almost lost ww2 but we didn’t.   I mean can we say Carter almost lost to keck 4-3.   Is that subjective?   I’ll re word it.  He almost wasn’t a finalist for the hodge because he almost lost to keck.  

... well sure but ...

[Caveira]

Just now, ionel said:

... well sure but ...

I was joking about Mr psu saying “he almost didn’t win as the committee voted for starocci.”   Thats all.  

[BruceyB]

15 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The year they split (2021) he and Spencer Lee had similar stats for pinfalls and bonus, though Lee was slightly better in both. 

In 2022 Steveson beat out Yianni Diakomihalis with his 1 pin, but he had a much higher bonus rate that year (83 vs 57). In hindsight, would have been nice to see a four timer get a Hodge.

What does being a 4xer have to do with the Hodge? Has anyone every won the Hodge with a less than 65% bonus rate?

[BruceyB]

11 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I think a tech is more dominant

This is just objectively wrong. What does the sport incentivize? If I'm looking to score points for my team, do I go for a tech or do I go for a pin? If I want to save energy, do I go for a tech or a pin? If I want to show that I can flip my opponent over and glue his shoulders to the mat, what do I do?  Some techs are more dominant than some pins. You're basically arguing that a unanimous decision in boxing is more dominant than a knockout because all it takes is one "lucky" punch for a knockout, while it requires sustained superiority to earn a unanimous decision. Turning a man over, pinning both shoulders blades down and having the ref slap the mat is the most dominant win in wrestling. If pinning is a scapegoat for a lesser wrestler, then let's just give additional points for a fall and put the wrestlers back in neutral to finish the match. I understand the argument, but I'd argue that guys like Steveson, Mesenbrink, and Starocci actually lack the complete skillset to pin their opponents. If Mesenbrink had as many pins as he does techs, he might have actually won the Hodge, but unfortunately, he is a dynamo on his feet without the ability to consistently turn even lesser opponents.

[RockLobster]

13 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I think beating someone by 15 points or more...is more dominant than a pin. That's it. That's the end of my entire opinion on this. You can accept it or not, you can't say I didn't "contend" with your argument or point or that I ignored it. 

I am in agreement with you.

• A tech fall shows dominance without question.
• A pin shows... maybe luck, maybe dominance, maybe some combination of the two. 

It does help bring into focus why the Hodge trophy came into being. And I appreciate that.

Some coaches/wrestlers would rather use a 'smart' strategy to win - get the 1st takedown, make the other guy wrestle from behind, take advantage of his mistakes, wrestle on the edge, use stalling calls to your advantage, with under 30 seconds to go - put on your track shoes and take a stalling call if you've got one to lose.

Those who tech often do so against inferior opponents. If they do it against good guys, it is super impressive. But can often depend upon being particularly good on their feet - or with tilts, or some other specialized part of wrestling.

There is just something different about a pinner who has the training and mindset to do it consistently, against anyone.

Those guys should be rewarded for what they do. Thank you, Hodge.

[scourge165]

12 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

This is just objectively wrong.

No...it's not.

13 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

If I want to save energy, do I go for a tech or a pin?

Really? We're talking about saving energy? That's...a sign of dominance? I don't want to get tired so I'm going to pin you?

14 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

You're basically arguing that a unanimous decision in boxing is more dominant than a knockout because all it takes is one "lucky" punch for a knockout

No, that's just how YOU'RE interpreting it in a clumsy analogy from another sport.

18 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I understand the argument, but I'd argue that guys like Steveson, Mesenbrink, and Starocci actually lack the complete skillset to pin their opponents.

And I'd argue there's nothing more dominant than repeatedly controlling a man and taking him to his back. 

 

You are free to argue that Stevenson, Mesenbrink and Starocci are...lacking in their skillsets if you'd like! 

I mean, the ULTIMATE goal is to win National Titles, right? Well, you've got 2X, 1X with 2 more shots and 5X. But sure.

 

 

I guess Hendrickson's most dominant year was 2022 when he had 17 pins vs the 13 he had this year. 

 

Hendrickson won the Hodge for ONE reason. He beat Gable. That's why he won the fan vote by a lot and lost the committees vote...by a solid margin.  

 

And unless you think HWT is REGULARLY the most skilled and dominant Wrestler, then...lets stop with the Pins=dominance nonsense. The top pinners are always the big guys. 

Hendrickson was the top pinner when he couldn't even make the podium. Yeah, he didn't win because of his pins.

The top pinners in D2 and D3 weren't even National Qualifers. 

 

"Objectively more dominant." 

 

Hell, was Gable even that good? I mean, sure, he won the Olympics...but he only had 5 pins in his two NCAA Championship seasons...even when he was rolling through the field that Hendrickson wasn't placing in and Hendrickson was racking up 18 pins, I guess Hendrickson was always better...ya know, minus the winning, the Olympics...etc...

Maybe we shouldn't even consider this an upset?

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, RockLobster said:

I am in agreement with you.

• A tech fall shows dominance without question.
• A pin shows... maybe luck, maybe dominance, maybe some combination of the two. 

It does help bring into focus why the Hodge trophy came into being. And I appreciate that.

Some coaches/wrestlers would rather use a 'smart' strategy to win - get the 1st takedown, make the other guy wrestle from behind, take advantage of his mistakes, wrestle on the edge, use stalling calls to your advantage, with under 30 seconds to go - put on your track shoes and take a stalling call if you've got one to lose.

Those who tech often do so against inferior opponents. If they do it against good guys, it is super impressive. But can often depend upon being particularly good on their feet - or with tilts, or some other specialized part of wrestling.

There is just something different about a pinner who has the training and mindset to do it consistently, against anyone.

Those guys should be rewarded for what they do. Thank you, Hodge.

I will say I'm more impressed if a 149 leads the Country in pins...and then actually places(or starts) 

This year the pin leader was the guy battling for the spot from Lehigh(he ultimately lost the starting spot). 

Quality of opponent seems relevant for pins and techs. 

Mesenbrink won it for techs.

You post kinda leans into Parris winning the award. He won it with 11 pins. MOST of them appeared to be under .500 and working backward, I found that of the last 6 that he pinned, one of them was an AA. 

I'd say Mesenbrink teching the runner up or most Wretlers he faced was pretty impressive.

So particularly as it comes to HWTs, I find pins less impressive or dominant than techs. 

 

My only issue with the Hodge has been the...ever evolving criteria. Why change it from pins to dominance? Why did they consider past accomplishments and then eliminate them?

The most pins ALWAYS come in the HWT class(197 is 2nd). Incidentally, those two weights have won the Hodge more than any other weights. So I guess those have been deemed the best weight classes?

If they wanted it to be a pinning award, they shouldn't have taken pinning out of the criteria. 

 

But back to my original thoughts on the award as a whole, I said I voted for Wyatt AND Starroci...so I'm certainly not complaining about Wyatt winning the award.

I'd have also voted for Keck had he beaten Starocci.

Edited Wednesday at 07:44 AM by scourge165

[Boring]

It's ridiculous to maintain that techs are more dominant than pins. "Oh, well this guy scored 15 points more than the other guy!!!!". Yeah, and the guy who pinned his opponent was only leading 5-0 when he got the pin in the first period, so clearly that's worse. Come on.  The only way in which techs are better is that a guy can't win by a fluke techfall. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:45 AM by Boring