Fletcher Posted March 13 Posted March 13 It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.
flyingcement Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said: It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly. Expand Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference? Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it 2
Jimmy Cinnabon Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said: It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly. Expand If want to count past seasons you have to factor in 4 NCAA titles > 1 NCAA title.
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:52 AM, flyingcement said: Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference? Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it Expand I think the NCAA looks at all conference champs as being equal in their formula. Any difference in difficulty should be factored into quality wins.
MLB9 Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said: It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly. Expand Maybe he should have just won? But yeah, I would think if coaches are basing their rankings on things that don’t count(assuming they’d never wrestled), being a 4X NC and the Big Ten champion would still have him in the same spot.
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:52 AM, flyingcement said: Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference? Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it Expand Past seasons are not supposed to be a criteria. Look what happened to Ferrari and Alirez. Though I guess that means Keck's championship last season shouldn't count either? Maybe it all comes down to the Cael/PSU factor.
Jimmy Cinnabon Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:04 AM, Fletcher said: Past seasons are not supposed to be a criteria. Look what happened to Ferrari and Alirez. Though I guess that means Keck's championship last season shouldn't count either? Maybe it all comes down to the Cael/PSU factor. Expand Starocci won the big ten which is better than the big 12. That is undisputed.
peanut Posted March 13 Posted March 13 (edited) I don't know how the formula works, but Carter is a 4x champ; he beat Keck at the all star match; he beat Ferrari when it wasn't clear he would face Ferrari; and he beat McEnelly. Anybody acting like Keck was wronged is just making stuff up. At any rate, as a fan, a potential Keck vs. McEnelly match sounds fantastic. Edited March 13 by peanut
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:08 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said: Starocci won the big ten which is better than the big 12. That is undisputed. Expand Keckeisen won his conference too. He has no control over the difficulty level and that shouldn't be held against him. Speaking of "undisputed" conference difficulty, how many wins does McEnelly (#2 B10) have over Plott (#2B12)?
wrestle87 Posted March 13 Posted March 13 A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed. This doesn’t need to be questioned.
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:12 AM, peanut said: I don't know how the formula works, but Carter is a 4x champ; he beat Keck at the all star match; he beat Ferrari when it wasn't clear he would face Ferrari; and he beat McEnelly. Anybody acting like Keck was wronged is just making stuff up. At any rate, as a fan, a potential Keck vs. McEnelly match sounds fantastic. Expand There is a formula, but I admittedly also don't know how it works. Tried to read the PowerPoint posted by Valenti on Twitter but I'm too dumb for that. I do know that past championships do not help or Ferrari and Alirez would be seeded higher. All-start match also doesn't count (allegedly). Finally, yes, I do have a tendency to just make stuff up. Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better.
ionel Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:41 AM, wrestle87 said: A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed. This doesn’t need to be questioned. Expand At what weight? .
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:41 AM, wrestle87 said: A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed. This doesn’t need to be questioned. Expand Not the criteria used though.
Jimmy Cinnabon Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:56 AM, Fletcher said: Not the criteria used though. Expand Did you do the math and find that the criteria favored Keck over Starocci?
wrestle87 Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:56 AM, Fletcher said: Not the criteria used though. Expand Well, seeding committees have a history of only taking criteria as suggestions, hence the annual forum pilgrimage to threads (correctly) talking about how insane and actually against the established rules these brackets are. It’s like the annual sprouting of foliage, it happens literally every year.
1032004 Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said: It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly. Expand The only metric it really affects is coaches rank, who often copy the ranking services. But wasn’t Starocci ranked higher by most (maybe all?) services before the All Star anyway?
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 2:01 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said: Did you do the math and find that the criteria favored Keck over Starocci? Expand Attached is from Matt Valenti. See slide 8. Doesn't reference past NCAA performance. Also doesn't say a 4 timer "doesn't need to be questioned". https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2023-24D1MWR_SelectionsProcess.pdf
PortaJohn Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:36 AM, Fletcher said: Speaking of "undisputed" conference difficulty, how many wins does McEnelly (#2 B10) have over Plott (#2B12)? Expand Plott didn't do any favors for the B12 taking a loss to Ferrari I Don't Agree With What I Posted
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 2:24 AM, PortaJohn said: Plott didn't do any favors for the B12 taking a loss to Ferrari Expand True. Not a great fact in favor of the B12. Ferrari also didn't compete - for all we know, he may have won B10 now that he's had an initial crack at Starocci and we know he's one takedown away...
flyingcement Posted March 13 Posted March 13 I don't believe in strategizing for a seed in any event. If you want to win, I think most of all you need to back yourself in all situations. If you're trying to game the situation, there is a part of you that doesn't believe in yourself
RockLobster Posted March 13 Posted March 13 (edited) On 3/13/2025 at 1:43 AM, Fletcher said: There is a formula, but I admittedly also don't know how it works. Tried to read the PowerPoint posted by Valenti on Twitter but I'm too dumb for that. I do know that past championships do not help or Ferrari and Alirez would be seeded higher. All-start match also doesn't count (allegedly). Finally, yes, I do have a tendency to just make stuff up. Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better. Expand You'll get exactly the final you've described. All Keck has to do is beat McEnelly. Problem solved. (Assuming, of course, both make it to semi's - as well as Starocci making it to finals. Which is likely, but nowhere near guaranteed.) Edited March 13 by RockLobster
Fletcher Posted March 13 Author Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 2:34 AM, RockLobster said: You'll get exactly the final you've described. All Keck has to do is beat McEnelly (assuming, of course, both make it to semi's - as well as Starocci. Which is anything but guaranteed.) Problem solved. Expand Of course you're right - beating one phenomenal athlete is exactly the same as beating two.
dragit Posted March 13 Posted March 13 On 3/13/2025 at 1:43 AM, Fletcher said: Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better. Expand Not sure why. Starocci and McEnelly have already wrestled. Wouldn't it be better to have Keck and Mc wrestle each other for the first time, then whoever wins (is better) gets to wrestle the 4x champ? 1
Co'ji Campbell St. Joseph Catholic Academy, Wisconsin Class of 2025 Committed to Illinois Projected Weight: 125, 133
Jackson Albert Saucon Valley, Pennsylvania Class of 2025 Committed to George Mason Projected Weight: 149, 157
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