Keck should not have done the all-star classic

[Fletcher]

It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.

[flyingcement]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said:

It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.

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Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference?  Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said:

It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.

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If want to count past seasons you have to factor in 4 NCAA titles > 1 NCAA title.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:52 AM, flyingcement said:

Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference?  Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it

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I think the NCAA looks at all conference champs as being equal in their formula.  Any difference in difficulty should be factored into quality wins.

[MLB9]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said:

It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.

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Maybe he should have just won? But yeah, I would think if coaches are basing their rankings on things that don’t count(assuming they’d never wrestled), being a 4X NC and the Big Ten champion would still have him in the same spot. 

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:52 AM, flyingcement said:

Any chance they awarded it to Starocci based on being a four time champion while also winning a better conference?  Even if thats not the real reason, maybe they could rationalize it

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Past seasons are not supposed to be a criteria. Look what happened to Ferrari and Alirez.

Though I guess that means Keck's championship last season shouldn't count either?

Maybe it all comes down to the Cael/PSU factor.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:04 AM, Fletcher said:

Past seasons are not supposed to be a criteria. Look what happened to Ferrari and Alirez.

Though I guess that means Keck's championship last season shouldn't count either?

Maybe it all comes down to the Cael/PSU factor.

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Starocci won the big ten which is better than the big 12. That is undisputed. 

[okokzach]

Carter had higher coaches rank; Parker had higher RPI

[peanut]

I don't know how the formula works, but Carter is a 4x champ; he beat Keck at the all star match; he beat Ferrari when it wasn't clear he would face Ferrari; and he beat McEnelly. Anybody acting like Keck was wronged is just making stuff up.

At any rate, as a fan, a potential Keck vs. McEnelly match sounds fantastic.

Edited Thursday at 01:13 AM by peanut

[ionel]

What weight was Carter last year? 

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:08 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Starocci won the big ten which is better than the big 12. That is undisputed. 

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Keckeisen won his conference too. He has no control over the difficulty level and that shouldn't be held against him.

Speaking of "undisputed" conference difficulty, how many wins does McEnelly (#2 B10) have over Plott (#2B12)?

[wrestle87]

A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed.  This doesn’t need to be questioned.

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:12 AM, peanut said:

I don't know how the formula works, but Carter is a 4x champ; he beat Keck at the all star match; he beat Ferrari when it wasn't clear he would face Ferrari; and he beat McEnelly. Anybody acting like Keck was wronged is just making stuff up.

At any rate, as a fan, a potential Keck vs. McEnelly match sounds fantastic.

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There is a formula, but I admittedly also don't know how it works. Tried to read the PowerPoint posted by Valenti on Twitter but I'm too dumb for that.

I do know that past championships do not help or Ferrari and Alirez would be seeded higher. All-start match also doesn't count (allegedly). Finally, yes, I do have a tendency to just make stuff up.

Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better.

[ionel]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:41 AM, wrestle87 said:

A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed.  This doesn’t need to be questioned.

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At what weight? 

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:41 AM, wrestle87 said:

A 4x returning champ has more than enough cred to warrant a one seed.  This doesn’t need to be questioned.

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Not the criteria used though.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:56 AM, Fletcher said:

Not the criteria used though.

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Did you do the math and find that the criteria favored Keck over Starocci?

[wrestle87]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:56 AM, Fletcher said:

Not the criteria used though.

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Well, seeding committees have a history of only taking criteria as suggestions, hence the annual forum pilgrimage to threads (correctly) talking about how insane and actually against the established rules these brackets are.

It’s like the annual sprouting of foliage, it happens literally every year. 

[1032004]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:48 AM, Fletcher said:

It's not supposed to count, but apparently it does. Otherwise, Keckeisen's the undefeated returning champ of the weight class. Starocci's the challenger and should be seeded accordingly.

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The only metric it really affects is coaches rank, who often copy the ranking services.  But wasn’t Starocci ranked higher by most (maybe all?) services before the All Star anyway?

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 2:01 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Did you do the math and find that the criteria favored Keck over Starocci?

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Attached is from Matt Valenti. See slide 8. Doesn't reference past NCAA performance. Also doesn't say a 4 timer "doesn't need to be questioned".

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2023-24D1MWR_SelectionsProcess.pdf

[PortaJohn]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:36 AM, Fletcher said:

Speaking of "undisputed" conference difficulty, how many wins does McEnelly (#2 B10) have over Plott (#2B12)?

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Plott didn't do any favors for the B12 taking a loss to Ferrari

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 2:24 AM, PortaJohn said:

Plott didn't do any favors for the B12 taking a loss to Ferrari

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True. Not a great fact in favor of the B12. Ferrari also didn't compete - for all we know, he may have won B10 now that he's had an initial crack at Starocci and we know he's one takedown away...

[flyingcement]

I don't believe in strategizing for a seed in any event.  If you want to win, I think most of all you need to back yourself in all situations.  If you're trying to game the situation, there is a part of you that doesn't believe in yourself

[RockLobster]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:43 AM, Fletcher said:

There is a formula, but I admittedly also don't know how it works. Tried to read the PowerPoint posted by Valenti on Twitter but I'm too dumb for that.

I do know that past championships do not help or Ferrari and Alirez would be seeded higher. All-start match also doesn't count (allegedly). Finally, yes, I do have a tendency to just make stuff up.

Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better.

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You'll get exactly the final you've described. All Keck has to do is beat McEnelly.

Problem solved.

(Assuming, of course, both make it to semi's - as well as Starocci making it to finals. Which is likely, but nowhere near guaranteed.)

Edited Thursday at 02:35 AM by RockLobster

[Fletcher]

  On 3/13/2025 at 2:34 AM, RockLobster said:

You'll get exactly the final you've described. All Keck has to do is beat McEnelly (assuming, of course, both make it to semi's - as well as Starocci. Which is anything but guaranteed.)

Problem solved.

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Of course you're right - beating one phenomenal athlete is exactly the same as beating two.

[dragit]

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:43 AM, Fletcher said:

Starocci-McEnelly semi and Starocci-Keck final would have been better.

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Not sure why.  Starocci and McEnelly have already wrestled.  Wouldn't it be better to have Keck and Mc wrestle each other for the first time, then whoever wins (is better) gets to wrestle the 4x champ?