Should wrestling from your knees be stalling?

[alex1fly]

At lower levels, you just bull rush the guy down on his knees and knock him over. Or shove his head down and go around. Not sure what's done at D1 level. If it's legal AND there's no counter for it, more wrestlers would do it right?

[swoopdown]

4 hours ago, Preceptor said:

The TD in OT maybe but the TD in the second period was in part created because he dropped to a knee.  Should we make wrist controls stalling in neutral since I am using them to limit your offense?

The second period TD was NOT initiated from 3PS (three point stalling) position. The critical error (Plott standing too high and leaning too much after he accepted the tie up and AF pushed Plotts left shoulder) was in the standing position and could have been avoided in the standing position.   Are they standing when the error is made (picture below) or not?  Your wrist control statement is silly and does not warrant a response.   

If Plott is not capable of maintaining sound balance and a good stance after accepting a tie up from AF's 3PS position, he'd be better off not accepting a tie up at all.  Just dance around and push AF's head.  Or break the tie up as soon as they stand.  Win with mat wrestling.  Boring but good strategy.  Would another be moving to a russian tie on AF's left arm as soon as they stand?  maybe.  AF has a wicked low single and Plott needs to find a way to anticipate and hinder it.

[swoopdown]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Yea there was, at least after the first period.  Regardless, IMO in general it is the lack of action that is stalling, not the fact of being on a knee

Time reference? 

Only effective shots I see are from standing.  The SV TD was Plott taking ground (bad strategy) while AF retreats and waits for Plott to walk into him.  AF stands for the shot though.

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, pmilk said:

A guy dropping to one knee is stalling or unmanageable? Come on, really? We end up on our knees all the time in wrestling. Weren't you all taught techniques from the feet and knees that allowed you to score by going over, under, or around your opponent? Wrestling an opponent who drops to his knee isn't much different than an opp on his feet...he's just shorter. If you have been trained appropriately, wrestling from the knees is an excellent scoring opportunity. With slight modifications, work into your tie-ups just like you would from on your feet: Snapdowns, sidesnaps, shrugs/shucks,  underhook headwhips, short arm drags, elbow throws, knee trips, etc., are all options..if you know how to set them up and execute...if you don't, then I guess your next best recourse is to claim stalling or something like that. Kinda like when the top man catches an ankle...claim he's stalling if you don't know how to 1)prevent or 2)employ and effective counter and then create a rule that eliminates the down man's responsibility to effectively free himself. Part of any wrestler's game plan should incorporate tactics that make it look like your opponent is stalling. That can be done from feet or on top...harder to do on bottom tho. 

Nolf and Kasak have taught strategies in their camps/clinics for taking down opponents who wrestle from a knee (but I guess they didn't teach it to Starocci). Circling, drag variations, downblock & blast counterattacks, etc. 

I say work the optics and get the ref on your side with a simple gesture:

 

Edited February 24 by CHROMEBIRD

[Fadzaev2]

I you go to a knee, it pretty much eliminates a leg attack against you.....now the best option is limited to a short offense...snapdowns/go behind, and lot's of guys aren't that good at it.  In addition, you need to get lower and ready to down block his shots because he's already changed levels.

 

[PortaJohn]

1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

Time reference? 

Only effective shots I see are from standing.  The SV TD was Plott taking ground (bad strategy) while AF retreats and waits for Plott to walk into him.  AF stands for the shot though.

I thought the takedown in SV looked like Plott was moving forward anticipating and trying to time Angelo's attack.  Just how I remembered it but I might have to rewatch it.  Ferrari was quick on that sweep single and I don't remember him in that sequence being on a knee

Edited February 25 by PortaJohn

[1032004]

2 hours ago, swoopdown said:

Time reference? 

Only effective shots I see are from standing.  The SV TD was Plott taking ground (bad strategy) while AF retreats and waits for Plott to walk into him.  AF stands for the shot though.

Ok he didn’t shoot “from” the knee, but the second period TD shot came about 1.5 seconds after coming up from the knee.

2 hours ago, swoopdown said:

The second period TD was NOT initiated from 3PS (three point stalling) position. The critical error (Plott standing too high and leaning too much after he accepted the tie up and AF pushed Plotts left shoulder) was in the standing position and could have been avoided in the standing position.   Are they standing when the error is made (picture below) or not?  Your wrist control statement is silly and does not warrant a response.   

If Plott is not capable of maintaining sound balance and a good stance after accepting a tie up from AF's 3PS position, he'd be better off not accepting a tie up at all.  Just dance around and push AF's head.  Or break the tie up as soon as they stand.  Win with mat wrestling.  Boring but good strategy.  Would another be moving to a russian tie on AF's left arm as soon as they stand?  maybe.  AF has a wicked low single and Plott needs to find a way to anticipate and hinder it.

Plott definitely seemed to be leaning prior to the SV TD, but I did not think he was leaning during the second period TD.  Angelo was just too quick for him.  Interestingly I believe both his TD’s were from outside singles to Plott’s trail leg, which many coaches would probably advise against.

Overall I don’t really see much difference between a guy in a stance and a guy on a knee. There are certainly ways one could try to attack someone on a knee; or at least maybe try to time your shot for right as he’s coming up.  Ferrari also tended to leave the leg that was up kinda far in front, so I think an outside single to that leg could be an option.

But stalling should be based on the action or lack thereof and Ferrari was far more active overall.

[Gene Mills Fan]

13 hours ago, Fadzaev2 said:

I you go to a knee, it pretty much eliminates a leg attack against you.....now the best option is limited to a short offense...snapdowns/go behind, and lot's of guys aren't that good at it.  In addition, you need to get lower and ready to down block his shots because he's already changed levels.

 

If you keep circling towards his down knee doesn't he have to stand up or you'll find an angle?? 

[Fadzaev2]

40 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

If you keep circling towards his down knee doesn't he have to stand up or you'll find an angle?? 

He could just pivot on his knee and keep squaring up.  I've coached two kids in my "over 40 years" of coaching and working wrestling camps who had limbs missing......one had one leg missing below the knee, the other had both legs missing below the knee, and they were very difficult to shoot on....the other kids in the room would get very frustrated.  That's another reason I think it's very important to have a good front headlock/short offense, and a lot of guys, even coming out of high school, don't.

[JohnnyT]

IMO, On a knee and scooting backwards as a defense is stalling and it should be called early like on the first or second time the wrestler does this.   Refs often are too forgiving on this especially in the first period.  I believe wrestling from from your knee is not stalling if this technique is followed up by an attack and/or use to a tie-up.  Adopting this technique in the 3rd period is suspect to just being a stall.

Also, hanging on a opponents head without ever legit attempts to improve the position IMO is also stalling.  In this instance, I think a ref might be allow this slightly longer since there is engagement to get into this position and a ref may offer a stalemate or two but should move towards stalling if this is just to eat up the clock.

I am seeing stalling calls (like many other people out there) as inconsistent.  Big10 refs seem to most consistent.

 

[okokzach]

In his post-Pac 12 championship interview that Flo uploaded today, AJ Ferrari says the 3 pt stance is stalling. He has used it plenty and obviously his brother lives in a 3 pt stance, so it's especially interesting to hear him say it's stalling 

[Wrestleknownothing]

14 minutes ago, okokzach said:

In his post-Pac 12 championship interview that Flo uploaded today, AJ Ferrari says the 3 pt stance is stalling. He has used it plenty and obviously his brother lives in a 3 pt stance, so it's especially interesting to hear him say it's stalling 

When I agree with AJ Ferrari is when I know I have made a terrible mistake.

[WisKyBoys]

When the wrestler in the three point stance makes no attempt to engage, I’d like to see stalling called every time. Used to have kids I was coaching, just hold the center and occasionally take a half step in. This was at the high school level and there were times we got called for stalling, but more often than not, the other wrestler was. So definitely not the perfect solution. If we want to continue to turn off casual fans, allow it to continue. Kind of like riding parallel or controlling wrists with no attempt to work for a turn. I fill my house several times a year with people that know very little about wrestling to watch big matches. Us wrestling zealots may think a 1-0 match is exciting. To the casual fan, not so much. But they’ll get into a high scoring match, even if they have no idea WTH is happening. We want to continue to grow the sport and bring in more fans, create more action. Wrestling from a three point stance does not do that. 

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

When I agree with AJ Ferrari is when I know I have made a terrible mistake.

How much can you deadlift?  Have you ever caught yourself doing the splits in the  middle of a mat?  I won't ask about the birds. 

Edited Friday at 09:36 PM by ionel

[PortaJohn]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

How much can you deadlift?  Have you ever caught yourself doing the splits in the  middle of a mat?  I won't ask about the birds. 

Never understood why people are up in arms about AJ and the birds.  Ornithologist should be respected.  They're doing God's work

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Never understood why people are up in arms about AJ and the birds.  Ornithologist should be respected.  They're doing God's work

Wkn         

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

Wkn         

Haha!  Not going to lie but this is kind of how I picture @Wrestleknownothing

[Gene Mills Fan]

16 minutes ago, ionel said:

Wkn         

Is AJ signaling he's going to Cornell next year? 

Edited Friday at 10:19 PM by Gene Mills Fan
add context

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Haha!  Not going to lie but this is kind of how I picture @Wrestleknownothing

You kidding? I see that guy coming and I cross to the other side of the street. He could kick my ass.