Best Wrestler Without an Olympic Gold

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Not to seem too naive but money always changed hands during protests. I worked in '96 and '03. FILA charged 400 Swiss francs to listen to a protest. We all know there were bribes but I would suggest that if you saw money being put down that what you saw wasn't the bribe. Bribes were likely done out of site and in addition to what you would have seen.

I personally witnessed his hand raised in the gold medal match.  I didn't see the money change hands.  I was told by a World Team coaching staff member that worked with me, that there had been a payoff.  (The individual was not on the 95 FS world stuff, but in the know.  Highly respected.)

[Crotalus]

YOU are going out of your way to say that a guy with 0 world titles and 0 Olympic placements is better than a guy with two world titles and an Olympic bronze (Terry) and a guy with three world titles (Kemp).
You made a lot of excuses,  but haven't addressed 97?
(Kolat had some bad things happen, great wrestler...no question.  Just not on Brands, Kemps, Dakes, etc. The scewjobs have enhanced his legend)

I didn't say anything about him being better than those two or anyone else. I'm just pointing out that using "0 world titles and 0 olympic placements" in your argument shows you're completely discounting that he was screwed over worse than anyone in US wrestling history. Sure, in 1997, he "left it in the hands of the ref." But 1998 and 1999, he literally won the matches, and they went behind closed doors to overturn the results.

[Tripnsweep]

22 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

I purposely left Greco out since 1. I thought barely anyone here would care about GR wrestlers. 2. FS and GR are different sports. 

If it's Greco though I think Tomov wins easily. Dominant Superheavy of the 70s. 5x world gold 5x euro gold. Dominated h2h against fellow Bulgarian and strong wreslter Nikola Dinev. Has a win against Rostortorky (Karelin's greatest foe) during a comeback when Rosotsky was destroying everyone.

But a terrible choker with 3 Olympic silver medals. And he would have been teh favorite in 84, but the boycott derailed that. 

I'd take Gogi over him, only because there was more competition in the modern era with no Soviet Union, instead you had a bunch of other countries who had talented guys. Being a multiple time Olympic silver medalist must be rough though. Gogi was just for whatever reason not showing up at the Olympics. He went into overtime with Lowney and got tossed on his head. Lowney goes on to a bronze medal. After that it was just disappointment. I don't think he advanced out of the pool round in 2004 either. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

57 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

YOU are going out of your way to say that a guy with 0 world titles and 0 Olympic placements is better than a guy with two world titles and an Olympic bronze (Terry) and a guy with three world titles (Kemp).
You made a lot of excuses,  but haven't addressed 97?
(Kolat had some bad things happen, great wrestler...no question.  Just not on Brands, Kemps, Dakes, etc. The scewjobs have enhanced his legend)

I didn't say anything about him being better than those two or anyone else. I'm just pointing out that using "0 world titles and 0 olympic placements" in your argument shows you're completely discounting that he was screwed over worse than anyone in US wrestling history. Sure, in 1997, he "left it in the hands of the ref." But 1998 and 1999, he literally won the matches, and they went behind closed doors to overturn the results.

The thread is literally "who is the best not to win an Olympic gold medal."  I love Kolat, but he is not in this conversation.  And I would go with Kemp and the 1980 team as "screwed over more."  They never were even allowed to take the mat.

Just curious, was 2000 the year Kolat had to re-wrestle a bout?  I know that they weren't all completely overturned.

 

Edited December 6 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I personally witnessed his hand raised in the gold medal match.  I didn't see the money change hands.  I was told by a World Team coaching staff member that worked with me, that there had been a payoff.  (The individual was not on the 95 FS world stuff, but in the know.  Highly respected.)

I'm just saying there are other options.

[Tripnsweep]

30 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The thread is literally "who is the best not to win an Olympic gold medal."  I love Kolat, but he is not in this conversation.  And I would go with Kemp and the 1980 team as "screwed over more."  They never were even allowed to take the mat.

Just curious, was 2000 the year Kolat had to re-wrestle a bout?  I know that they weren't all completely overturned.

 

He best Talaei in the pool but Iran protested so they wrestled again and Kolat lost 5-4. 

[Crotalus]

The thread is literally "who is the best not to win an Olympic gold medal."  I love Kolat, but he is not in this conversation.  And I would go with Kemp and the 1980 team as "screwed over more."  They never were even allowed to take the mat.
Just curious, was 2000 the year Kolat had to re-wrestle a bout?  I know that they weren't all completely overturned.
 

I only jumped in the conversation because I thought your argument was disingenuous, not because I would say Kolat is the best on the list. Anyways, 1998 was just straight overturned. 1999 and 2000, he had to re-wrestle matches due to decisions made behind closed doors after he won those matches on the mat. And there were some other shenanigans afterward in 2000 to ensure he didn't make it out of his pool. Seriously, he had some egregious refereeing in 1997 followed by three consecutive years of having been declared the winner of a match only to have those results changed after the fact. Sure, he had the opportunity to re-wrestle the last two, but that's a pretty big mind-***duck**. I can't even fathom the level of resentment I would still harbor for the sport.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, Crotalus said:

10 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The thread is literally "who is the best not to win an Olympic gold medal."  I love Kolat, but he is not in this conversation.  And I would go with Kemp and the 1980 team as "screwed over more."  They never were even allowed to take the mat.
Just curious, was 2000 the year Kolat had to re-wrestle a bout?  I know that they weren't all completely overturned.
 

I only jumped in the conversation because I thought your argument was disingenuous, not because I would say Kolat is the best on the list. Anyways, 1998 was just straight overturned. 1999 and 2000, he had to re-wrestle matches due to decisions made behind closed doors after he won those matches on the mat. And there were some other shenanigans afterward in 2000 to ensure he didn't make it out of his pool. Seriously, he had some egregious refereeing in 1997 followed by three consecutive years of having been declared the winner of a match only to have those results changed after the fact. Sure, he had the opportunity to re-wrestle the last two, but that's a pretty big mind-***duck**. I can't even fathom the level of resentment I would still harbor for the sport.

My argument is no the least bit disingenuous.  Love Kolat as a wrestler, but he is not in the discussion of greatest of all time (not to win Olympics), which is what this is all about.  Saying that he is any kind of GOAT discussion outside of PA or LHU is disingenuous.  Yes, the guy got screwed... and this has only added to his mystique.  His misfortune has raised his status.

Lots of bad reffing in big Olympic matches! just ask anyone who saw Henson's gold medal match or Terry vs. Dabir.

[Crotalus]

The argument he doesn't belong because he has zero world championships completely lacks context, and to claim he was just a victim of bad refereeing is just incorrect. He had one pretty egregiously refereed match and then straight corruption for three years. It's not a crazy to say he was possibly the best in the world for a 3-4 year period, as he had wins over all the best guys.

Is he the best US guy to never win Oly gold? Maybe not, but he deserves to be in the discussion. I'd certainly put him over a number of guys that have a world title or two.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

The argument he doesn't belong because he has zero world championships completely lacks context, and to claim he was just a victim of bad refereeing is just incorrect. He had one pretty egregiously refereed match and then straight corruption for three years. It's not a crazy to say he was possibly the best in the world for a 3-4 year period, as he had wins over all the best guys.

Is he the best US guy to never win Oly gold? Maybe not, but he deserves to be in the discussion. I'd certainly put him over a number of guys that have a world title or two.

Never beat Jang Jae-sung and had multiple losses to him.

I would in no way put him above Terry Brands, whom is a US guy with two world titles.  Others, I would have to think about.

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Never beat Jang Jae-sung and had multiple losses to him.

I would in no way put him above Terry Brands, whom is a US guy with two world titles.  Others, I would have to think about.

Regardless of titles you're literally the first person I've ever heard say Terry Brands is a better wrestler than Kolat.  Seriously

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, PortaJohn said:

Regardless of titles you're literally the first person I've ever heard say Terry Brands is a better wrestler than Kolat.  Seriously

He is a better coach, too.

Kolat fanboyism is rampant.  Great high school and college wrestler, but he's become a martyr.  Score a couple more points, avoid a few 50-50 positions, learn to wrestle from the clinch... maybe he gets another world silver or two.  The fact that he wrestled matches that were too close and let politics get involved has made him a martyr and increased the level of devotion to him.  

Didn't he automatically release the clinch as opposed to wrestle from the position?  I seem to remember this. Not acceptable.

[OMW]

Alexander Leipold!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

45 minutes ago, OMW said:

Alexander Leipold!

RIP

[mspart]

How about the best wrestler in 2000 to not get an olympic medal?   I vote B. Saitiev.

mspart

 

[GrandOlm]

9 hours ago, OMW said:

Alexander Leipold!

I purposely left out wrestlers who got popped.  

[GrandOlm]

On 12/5/2024 at 7:40 PM, Tripnsweep said:

I'd take Gogi over him, only because there was more competition in the modern era with no Soviet Union, instead you had a bunch of other countries who had talented guys. Being a multiple time Olympic silver medalist must be rough though. Gogi was just for whatever reason not showing up at the Olympics. He went into overtime with Lowney and got tossed on his head. Lowney goes on to a bronze medal. After that it was just disappointment. I don't think he advanced out of the pool round in 2004 either. 

People say that (and I agree for FS), but what about Bulgaria and Romania collapsing during Gogi's time? How is that not weaker competition in the 90s and and 2000s? 

Bulgaria was an excellent Greco Roman country, they could beat the Soviet 2s (and run of the mill 1s). Romania was really good. Nothing replaced those two countries... which is probably why America had a golden era in the during those decades. It took also took Cuba a while to arise and they don't like sending full teams.

Tomov is easily the best GR wrestler without a gold medal imo. 3x Olympic Silver Medalist, faced strong competition (Soviets, Romanians), beat great wrestlers, and was probably denied a gold because of politics in 84. He was voted into the hall of fame in the inaugural class. 

[PortaJohn]

16 hours ago, mspart said:

How about the best wrestler in 2000 to not get an olympic medal?   I vote B. Saitiev.

mspart

 

Saitiev is the greatest wrestler to not win a medal in any tournament.  He's the GOAT

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

12 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Saitiev is the greatest wrestler to not win a medal in any tournament.  He's the GOAT

I'm not sure about that.  I'm coming around on this Kolat thing.

[PortaJohn]

18 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I'm not sure about that.  I'm coming around on this Kolat thing.

HAHA! 10 out of 10.  Well Played

[Takuto_Otoguro]

The best to never win olympic gold?

Probably Brent Metcalf.

[D3 for LU]

On 12/7/2024 at 11:39 AM, Takuto_Otoguro said:

The best to never win olympic gold?

Probably Brent Metcalf.

 

 

The Infamous Push...

D3

Edited December 8 by D3 for LU

[Paul158]

On 11/29/2024 at 8:37 AM, lu1979 said:

Lee Kemp

THat is one of my top 3. Lee Kemp then Wade Schalles and Kolat.

Edited December 8 by Paul158
missed a word

[Paul158]

On 12/5/2024 at 1:54 PM, Crotalus said:

 

 

This is the kind of thing you say to kids in grade school. The way Kolat got screwed multiple times represented some of the most blatant corruption we've seen in wrestling. He did what he needed to do, and they went behind closed doors and took matches away from him.

 

Yes. After the match ended and Kolat was the winner they (the corrupt officials) in a malicious, corrupt way went behind closed doors and changed the score. What an absolute bunch of bullsxxt. 

[Le duke]

My top three, in order: Kemp, Terry, Dake.


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