Best Wrestler Without an Olympic Gold

[GrandOlm]

Almost everyone who won at least 5 world golds has one. 

[gimpeltf]

I remember when we first saw Hasimikov walk out to wrestle- ('79 San Diego) - One of us said- How are you supposed to wrestle THAT!?

[lu1979]

Lee Kemp

[fishbane]

Besik Kudukhov

[Wildcat92]

Cary Kolat, Terry Brands, Dake, Lee

[mspart]

Kolat definitely.   Dake multiple WC, yes him too.   Terry?   Spencer?   I think too soon for him to be on the list.  

Terry didn't make the olympic team in 1996 in spectacular manner.   He did make it in 2000, but had not done much wrestling since 1996.   He did make the 1999 WT ( I was at the WTTs that year in Seattle), but I don't think he went to the WCs that year.    I just looked it up and it appears he also made the 1997 world team but didn't compete at the WCs as well.   I'm not sure why.   But he was a two time WC, I think we would know more and could better judge this if he had gone to the 1997 and 1999 WCs.   I think that keeps him off this list.  

Dake is a 4 time WC, but two of those not in Olympic weights.   So again, not enough data probably.  

Lee Kemp - For sure. 

mspart

[Tripnsweep]

Gogi Kougashvili. 5x world champion, 1x Olympic bronze medalist in 3 or 4 trips to the Olympics. And this guy in the red singlet.

[BarSeries]

23 hours ago, mspart said:

Terry didn't make the olympic team in 1996 in spectacular manner.   He did make it in 2000, but had not done much wrestling since 1996.   He did make the 1999 WT ( I was at the WTTs that year in Seattle), but I don't think he went to the WCs that year.    I just looked it up and it appears he also made the 1997 world team but didn't compete at the WCs as well.   I'm not sure why.   But he was a two time WC, I think we would know more and could better judge this if he had gone to the 1997 and 1999 WCs.   I think that keeps him off this list.  

I just watched the Terry film on Flo yesterday. OMG that 1996 was spectacular. And then Cross gets the gold too which had to hurt unbelievably.

[Voice of the Quakers]

On 12/3/2024 at 1:08 PM, Tripnsweep said:

Gogi Kougashvili. 5x world champion, 1x Olympic bronze medalist in 3 or 4 trips to the Olympics. And this guy in the red singlet.

Garrett Lowney was on an amazing heater in 2000.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 12/3/2024 at 12:25 PM, Wildcat92 said:

Cary Kolat, Terry Brands, Dake, Lee

Everyone always says Kolat.  He had one heartbreaker in the finals, but was he ever close other than that?  He took some bad losses, including two to the Korean Brands beat in 96.

[Tripnsweep]

6 hours ago, Voice of the Quakers said:

Garrett Lowney was on an amazing heater in 2000.

I think he beat Couture and Gleasman at the trials that year. 

[Irani]

Ebrahim Javadi

[Hammerlock3]

obviously aaron pico

[GrandOlm]

On 12/3/2024 at 12:03 PM, mspart said:

Kolat definitely.   Dake multiple WC, yes him too.   Terry?   Spencer?   I think too soon for him to be on the list.  

Terry didn't make the olympic team in 1996 in spectacular manner.   He did make it in 2000, but had not done much wrestling since 1996.   He did make the 1999 WT ( I was at the WTTs that year in Seattle), but I don't think he went to the WCs that year.    I just looked it up and it appears he also made the 1997 world team but didn't compete at the WCs as well.   I'm not sure why.   But he was a two time WC, I think we would know more and could better judge this if he had gone to the 1997 and 1999 WCs.   I think that keeps him off this list.  

Dake is a 4 time WC, but two of those not in Olympic weights.   So again, not enough data probably.  

Lee Kemp - For sure. 

mspart

So which one is it? You listed 4 wrestlers.

[GrandOlm]

On 12/3/2024 at 12:08 PM, Tripnsweep said:

Gogi Kougashvili. 5x world champion, 1x Olympic bronze medalist in 3 or 4 trips to the Olympics. And this guy in the red singlet.

I purposely left Greco out since 1. I thought barely anyone here would care about GR wrestlers. 2. FS and GR are different sports. 

If it's Greco though I think Tomov wins easily. Dominant Superheavy of the 70s. 5x world gold 5x euro gold. Dominated h2h against fellow Bulgarian and strong wreslter Nikola Dinev. Has a win against Rostortorky (Karelin's greatest foe) during a comeback when Rosotsky was destroying everyone.

But a terrible choker with 3 Olympic silver medals. And he would have been teh favorite in 84, but the boycott derailed that. 

[mspart]

14 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

So which one is it? You listed 4 wrestlers.

Lee Kemp and Cary Kolat for sure. 

Dake, T Brands, and Spencer Lee, I don't think they are there yet.  

Kolat had terrible "luck" in 2 WCs and 1 Oly.   He was dominant and the system robbed him of wins he obviously had but were taken away from him.    After his loss in the Olympics, he lost heart I think.   It was a touch too much for him.   He didn't really compete after that although he came back some years later and didn't make it.   He was the greatest US wrestler to never get a WC or Oly gold. 

mspart

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

25 minutes ago, mspart said:

Lee Kemp and Cary Kolat for sure. 

Dake, T Brands, and Spencer Lee, I don't think they are there yet.  

Kolat had terrible "luck" in 2 WCs and 1 Oly.   He was dominant and the system robbed him of wins he obviously had but were taken away from him.    After his loss in the Olympics, he lost heart I think.   It was a touch too much for him.   He didn't really compete after that although he came back some years later and didn't make it.   He was the greatest US wrestler to never get a WC or Oly gold. 

mspart

Terry Brands was much more accomplished than Kolat; both in college and internationally. 

I like Kolat, don't get me wrong, but there is a lot of projection on what he would have done if he didn't get some raw deals.  Sometimes you just need to make your own breaks.  (and yes, he did get saw raw deals)  The fact remains that Terry won two WCs and Kolat won zero and made one final, where a guy kept untying his own shoes to get a breather.  Be more dominant, and you don't have to worry about shenanigans.

1999 worlds, he took two losses.  One may have been a re-wrestled match, but both weren't.  Did not medal.

In the 2000 Olympics, he lost to Talaei (IRI) (re-wrestled match or re-scored?).  The Iranian did not medal.

But the US answer is probably Lee Kemp.  Chris Campbell was looking pretty solid around that time, too... just not the accolades of Kemp.

Edited December 5 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Crotalus]

I like Kolat, don't get me wrong, but there is a lot of projection on what he would have done if he didn't get some raw deals.  Sometimes you just need to make your own breaks.  (and yes, he did get saw raw deals)  The fact remains that Terry won two WCs and Kolat won zero and made one final, where a guy kept untying his own shoes to get a breather.  Be more dominant, and you don't have to worry about shenanigans.

This is the kind of thing you say to kids in grade school. The way Kolat got screwed multiple times represented some of the most blatant corruption we've seen in wrestling. He did what he needed to do, and they went behind closed doors and took matches away from him.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

16 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

This is the kind of thing you say to kids in grade school. The way Kolat got screwed multiple times represented some of the most blatant corruption we've seen in wrestling. He did what he needed to do, and they went behind closed doors and took matches away from him.

 

There was at least one re-wrestled match, so that wasn't "taken' from him like a re-scored match.  Le's not add McCoy's matches to Kolats.

There were no closed doors in 97.  What about 99 where he lost twice?  2000 where the controversial loss was to a non-medalist?

He was a victim of some awful stuff, but you can't just assume he wins the tournament.  He wasn't dominant enough against the best guys to count ofn a win every time they wrestled.  That is just the truth.  He had more wrestling left in him after 2000 and never came close.

How many people are saying: Terry would have been Olympic champ in 2000 if the refs didn't stop his bent leg turk vs Dabir?  No one.  And Terry is far more accomplished than Kolat.

Edited December 5 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[PortaJohn]

On 12/4/2024 at 1:34 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Everyone always says Kolat.  He had one heartbreaker in the finals, but was he ever close other than that?  He took some bad losses, including two to the Korean Brands beat in 96.

1) I'd say in '98 he was close.  Barzakov went on to win Gold after their match was rescored. 

2) Saw you mentioned '99.   First round he beat Umakhavnov (2000 Gold medalist) and unfortunately separated his shoulder.  Won his semifinals match and had to re-wrestle it.  Yes lost in the bronze medal match but not too shabby of a tournament for an injured wrestler

3)  Unfortunately 2000 was a strange one with the loss to Talaee in the re-wrestle and Islamov refusing to wrestle Talaee after the Russians told Islamov to forfeit the match.  Kolat did beat the gold medalist that year in '99.  

[mspart]

Kolat is personally responsible for 2 rule changes in international wrestling.   That didn't help him but that is the case.  And it was in recognition of the screw jobs he received. 

mspart

[Crotalus]

There was at least one re-wrestled match, so that wasn't "taken' from him like a re-scored match.  Le's not add McCoy's matches to Kolats.
There were no closed doors in 97.  What about 99 where he lost twice?  2000 where the controversial loss was to a non-medalist?
He was a victim of some awful stuff, but you can't just assume he wins the tournament.  He wasn't dominant enough against the best guys to count ofn a win every time they wrestled.  That is just the truth.  He had more wrestling left in him after 2000 and never came close.
How many people are saying: Terry would have been Olympic champ in 2000 if the refs didn't stop his bent leg turk vs Dabir?  No one.  And Terry is far more accomplished than Kolat.

Yeah, he literally had his hand raised at the end of every match in '98. And he had his hand raised at the end of the semifinals match in '99. We can go on, but you are going out of your way to downplay how bad a screw job he got.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Crotalus said:

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

There was at least one re-wrestled match, so that wasn't "taken' from him like a re-scored match.  Le's not add McCoy's matches to Kolats.
There were no closed doors in 97.  What about 99 where he lost twice?  2000 where the controversial loss was to a non-medalist?
He was a victim of some awful stuff, but you can't just assume he wins the tournament.  He wasn't dominant enough against the best guys to count ofn a win every time they wrestled.  That is just the truth.  He had more wrestling left in him after 2000 and never came close.
How many people are saying: Terry would have been Olympic champ in 2000 if the refs didn't stop his bent leg turk vs Dabir?  No one.  And Terry is far more accomplished than Kolat.

Yeah, he literally had his hand raised at the end of every match in '98. And he had his hand raised at the end of the semifinals match in '99. We can go on, but you are going out of your way to downplay how bad a screw job he got.

YOU are going out of your way to say that a guy with 0 world titles and 0 Olympic placements is better than a guy with two world titles and an Olympic bronze (Terry) and a guy with three world titles (Kemp).

You made a lot of excuses,  but haven't addressed 97?

(Kolat had some bad things happen, great wrestler...no question.  Just not on Brands, Kemps, Dakes, etc. The scewjobs have enhanced his legend)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Also, I think we are giving Kolat too much credit for rules changes.  The shoelaces in 97 is prob accurate.  Others, I'm not so sure.  Lots of people were screwed by backroom deals.  McCoy for one.  I personally witnessed Wada have his hand raised to win the gold in 95 only to have some money change hands and come home with silver instead.  Tedeev won that weight.

[gimpeltf]

33 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Also, I think we are giving Kolat too much credit for rules changes.  The shoelaces in 97 is prob accurate.  Others, I'm not so sure.  Lots of people were screwed by backroom deals.  McCoy for one.  I personally witnessed Wada have his hand raised to win the gold in 95 only to have some money change hands and come home with silver instead.  Tedeev won that weight.

Not to seem too naive but money always changed hands during protests. I worked in '96 and '03. FILA charged 400 Swiss francs to listen to a protest. We all know there were bribes but I would suggest that if you saw money being put down that what you saw wasn't the bribe. Bribes were likely done out of site and in addition to what you would have seen.