Hammerlock3 Posted November 15 Author Posted November 15 6 hours ago, scourge165 said: No...it really wouldn't be like "free redshirts for all." It's pretty simple. Dr says you're suffering from concussions. You come back and you're "recovered" because you're not showing any signs of post-concussion syndrome. People realize this isn't theoretical, right? This HAS actually happened before? He also Wrestled as a True Freshmen, so the issue isn't the NCAA, it's Cornell and the Ivy and their rules. This isn't 19th-century Archaeology in which they tried to declare the intellect of a person based on the shape of their skulls. Dr's can test for concussions and in Shapiro's case in particular, having had a history(as well as those silly Dr's for some reason prioritizing the health of the brain) I'm thinking they'd have a baseline and be inclined to grant one...if that was the issue. yeah but you see how easily it could be faked right? "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted November 15 Posted November 15 22 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: I agree. I also think trainers/doctors feel pressure from coaches and coaches need to use the eyeball test and do what is best for the kid. That's the direction I was going with this. I would also add obvious examples of David Taylor in his first worlds (I think) and Berge. Not to pick on PSU/NLWC (for once), just because it was pretty obvious what was happening and both were widely viewed. I'm sure there are a million others we never even think of or didn't notice. In fact, I will add my high school coach to this. Back in the dark ages, I was knocked out cold. Scraped off the mat. I love my high school coach, and he was one of the most influential people in my life. Well, he had me out there in the next dual an hour or so later. We just didn't know what we know now, and I'm sure he wanted to win, too. It is always very tempting for competitive people.
CHROMEBIRD Posted November 15 Posted November 15 3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I have my doubts about the protocols. And this is not a Cornell criticism, it is a sport criticism, but we saw it with Yianni Diakomihalis in Colorado at the challenge tournament against Nick Lee. He was so clearly concussed, but passed the protocols. Those were UWW protocols, not NCAA, but I think it is a sport wide problem. We seem to see if every week in the NFL, especially with Tua Tagovailoa. Tagovailoa has passed concussion protocols and returned to the game multiple times in his career when it is clear he should not have. I have no idea about Meyer Shapiro, as I have not even seen the match in question, I just do not think passing the concussion protocol is as definitive as it should be. True. Regarding the NCAA specifically, there are concussion protocol standards and procedures in addition to the testing and administration at the team level, but I'm doubtful that they are as robust as they need to be, no matter how much the NCAA says they take concussions seriously. I can't tell if it's due to a lack of medical diagnostics, or the NCAA doing some hands-off bs and pushing the responsibility to the conferences or teams, or just plain $$$. The way I understand it: while there are assessments that can positively diagnose a concussion, there's no single neurological test or tests that can be performed on the spot to definitively rule one out. The serious effects of a concussion tend to lag when the brain injury actually occurred, so I guess incurrence and recovery can be pretty subjective.
Wrestleknownothing Posted November 15 Posted November 15 29 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said: True. Regarding the NCAA specifically, there are concussion protocol standards and procedures in addition to the testing and administration at the team level, but I'm doubtful that they are as robust as they need to be, no matter how much the NCAA says they take concussions seriously. I can't tell if it's due to a lack of medical diagnostics, or the NCAA doing some hands-off bs and pushing the responsibility to the conferences or teams, or just plain $$$. The way I understand it: while there are assessments that can positively diagnose a concussion, there's no single neurological test or tests that can be performed on the spot to definitively rule one out. The serious effects of a concussion tend to lag when the brain injury actually occurred, so I guess incurrence and recovery can be pretty subjective. That was my biggest problem with the Yianni Diakonihalis situation. First he immediately grabs his head and looks woozy, then he looks OK, but then he clearly starts to fade in that match and his reaction time slows, but they kept going. Yes, some symptoms were delayed, but they were only delayed a little, and the new information was not processed fast enough. Tagovailoa having a fencing response on the field for all to see and then returning to the game was hard to understand. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
scourge165 Posted November 16 Posted November 16 7 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said: yeah but you see how easily it could be faked right? Yeah...I also see how EVERY manner of injury could be faked if you're going to have Doctors who are in on it. I don't think there are a whole lot of Doctors out there who are "in on it," and what's more, I don't really care. If you're asking for a Medical for Concussions, I'd rather they just grant it than deny it because of the slippery slope theory...
Hammerlock3 Posted November 16 Author Posted November 16 1 minute ago, scourge165 said: Yeah...I also see how EVERY manner of injury could be faked if you're going to have Doctors who are in on it. I don't think there are a whole lot of Doctors out there who are "in on it," and what's more, I don't really care. If you're asking for a Medical for Concussions, I'd rather they just grant it than deny it because of the slippery slope theory... you can falsify a concussion way easier than a torn ACL "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
scourge165 Posted November 16 Posted November 16 1 minute ago, Hammerlock3 said: you can falsify a concussion way easier than a torn ACL Well...now that you covered the entirety of my point and we've discussed the only two injuries in the sport, I guess this is done, right?
Hammerlock3 Posted November 16 Author Posted November 16 4 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Well...now that you covered the entirety of my point and we've discussed the only two injuries in the sport, I guess this is done, right? You're don't know anything about concussions do you "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
Hammerlock3 Posted November 16 Author Posted November 16 Just now, scourge165 said: I know enough about Twains comments about arguing with fools to know getting BACK into another one of these truly asinine debates with you is really pointless. I said what I had to say. I honestly don't give a *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* if you don't like it no the ground that you think people could get "free" Medical Red Shirts...it's an asinine premise and WTF am I going to do? 'Yeah-huh...I know about concussions! I had lots of them!' Just leave one f'king thread without the most pedantic bull*I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* ever, please? Is that on the table or no? can you make this shorter? 1 "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."
scourge165 Posted November 16 Posted November 16 4 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said: can you make this shorter? You're a clown.
1032004 Posted November 16 Posted November 16 18 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: But this did happen, correct? CKLV? And the medical staff should not be making that type of error. Not really ok. Yes. Then he also wrestled in 2 meaningless duals 2 weeks later (despite not wrestling in the dual that same day where Cornell ducked against Iowa State). 1
Dark Energy Posted November 16 Posted November 16 Worried for him. Hoping he and his support network put very high weight on his brain health for his entire life.
BuckyBadger Posted December 5 Posted December 5 Anyone know his status? Looks like he won’t be at Cliff Keen.
BigRedFan Posted December 5 Posted December 5 1 hour ago, BuckyBadger said: Anyone know his status? Looks like he won’t be at Cliff Keen. Only four of the ten expected second semester Cornell starters are at CKLV (Ungar, Saunders (in lieu of Cornella), Fernandez, and Ruiz).
wrestle87 Posted December 6 Posted December 6 Concussions are just one of those things you don't mess with. Saying a kid is faking is 1) impossible to prove, and 2) extremely bad faith and the ultimate adult child response. We had a kid on our team in college, absolute world beater, built like a brick sh*thouse, total monster in the room, and on the mat for the two occasions we were able to get him out there. Problem was, he had an issue with concussions. Flick him in the forehead the wrong way and congratulations, he can no longer retain anything that he reads for the next six months. This is not to be messed around with. Wrestling is a sport. It is of zero significance against the livelihood and wellbeing of the people who participate in it as athletes. 2 1
FD1W Posted December 6 Posted December 6 10 hours ago, BuckyBadger said: Anyone know his status? Looks like he won’t be at Cliff Keen. Registered for the Patriot Open in 12/8 1
BigRedFan Posted December 6 Posted December 6 5 hours ago, FD1W said: Registered for the Patriot Open in 12/8 Do you have inside access to the registration list?
1032004 Posted December 8 Posted December 8 Is it true Ungar suffered an apparent concussion at CKLV and they sent him back out too?
BigRedFan Posted December 8 Posted December 8 30 minutes ago, 1032004 said: Is it true Ungar suffered an apparent concussion at CKLV and they sent him back out too? No. Nobody who doesn't pass the concussion protocol is sent back out. Just stop. 1
1032004 Posted December 8 Posted December 8 13 minutes ago, BigRedFan said: No. Nobody who doesn't pass the concussion protocol is sent back out. Just stop. Well it definitely happened with Shapiro
BigRedFan Posted December 8 Posted December 8 Just now, 1032004 said: Well it definitely happened with Shapiro You are saying that Shapiro *failed* a concussion protocol test during a match and they sent him back out there? Yeah, sure.
1032004 Posted December 8 Posted December 8 Just now, BigRedFan said: You are saying that Shapiro *failed* a concussion protocol test during a match and they sent him back out there? Yeah, sure. I’m saying he had concussion symptoms and was sent back out. IIRC, they did not perform a proper test.
wrestlingfan22 Posted December 8 Posted December 8 2 hours ago, BigRedFan said: You are saying that Shapiro *failed* a concussion protocol test during a match and they sent him back out there? Yeah, sure. The in-match concussion protocol tests are normally a joke. Symptoms don't always immediately set in and the adrenaline/drive to compete will often lead to kids saying they are okay when they are not
1032004 Posted December 8 Posted December 8 2 hours ago, BigRedFan said: No. Nobody who doesn't pass the concussion protocol is sent back out. Just stop. The guy that’s on the BEG podcast that’s a Cornell fan says the ref is on video saying to the Cornell corner that Ungar was “dazed”
BigRedFan Posted December 8 Posted December 8 12 minutes ago, 1032004 said: The guy that’s on the BEG podcast that’s a Cornell fan says the ref is on video saying to the Cornell corner that Ungar was “dazed” So we're now at the "concussion protocols are a joke" and "the wrestler was dazed" stage of the "argument." Carry on.
Charlie Scanlan Bethlehem Catholic, Pennsylvania Class of 2025 Committed to Columbia Projected Weight: 157
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