Did Collegiate Duals count as one, two, or three toward new red shirt exception?

[Wrestleknownothing]

I do not think the answer is three, but I am not sure if it is one or two.

The new by-law reads:

• 12.8.3.1.7 Exception -- Men's Wrestling. In men's wrestling, a student-athlete representing a Division I institution may compete in up to five dates of competition during the student-athlete's initial year of collegiate enrollment without using a season of competition.  Competition in a conference championship tournament, the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships, or any other season-ending championship event shall not be exempted from counting as a season of competition.

So a freshman is allow five "dates of competition" without using a year of eligibility. 

The definition of a date of competition is:

• 17.02.5 Date of Competition. A date of competition is a single date on which any game(s), match(es), meet(s), exhibition(s), scrimmage(s) or joint practice session(s) with another institution's team takes place, regardless of its formality, between an intercollegiate athletics team or individual representing a member institution and any other team or individual not representing the intercollegiate athletics program of the same member institution. (Revised: 1/10/91)

And 

• 17.02.7 Date of Competition, Countable, Individual Student-Athlete. A countable date of competition for an individual student-athlete is any date on which a student-athlete competes while representing the institution (see Bylaw 17.02.8) individually or as a member of the varsity, subvarsity or freshman team, unless a specific exemption for a particular date of competition is set forth in this bylaw.

So date of competition can have more than one match and still count as one toward the 12.8.3.1.7 Exception. By that measure I think the Collegiate Duals should count as two dates of competition, not three. Two duals one day (first "date of competition") and one dual the next day (second "date of competition").

Does anyone know if that interpretation is correct?

Edited December 28, 2022 by Wrestleknownothing

[ionel]

26 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I do not think the answer is three, but I am not sure if it is one or two.

So date of competition can have more than one match and still count as one toward the 12.8.3.1.7 Exception. By that measure I think the Collegiate Duals should count as two dates of competition, not three. Two duals one day (first "date of competition") and one dual the next day (second "date of competition").

Does anyone know if that interpretation is correct?

Your interpretation looks correct but my goodness given the way the NCAA writes these I'd think any good coach/program would run this by their compliance officer for clarification before committing any Fr in the competition.

Believe Bill's reply to Hilliary when asked if he was dating Monica was: "depends on what the definition of 'date' is."  Think same applies here.

If you want further clarification, add a question to the Burwikk thread, I'm sure it'll be resolved in another 20 pages.

[Higgitty]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I do not think the answer is three, but I am not sure if it is one or two.

The new by-law reads:

• 12.8.3.1.7 Exception -- Men's Wrestling. In men's wrestling, a student-athlete representing a Division I institution may compete in up to five dates of competition during the student-athlete's initial year of collegiate enrollment without using a season of competition.  Competition in a conference championship tournament, the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships, or any other season-ending championship event shall not be exempted from counting as a season of competition.

So a freshman is allow five "dates of competition" without using a year of eligibility. 

The definition of a date of competition is:

• 17.02.5 Date of Competition. A date of competition is a single date on which any game(s), match(es), meet(s), exhibition(s), scrimmage(s) or joint practice session(s) with another institution's team takes place, regardless of its formality, between an intercollegiate athletics team or individual representing a member institution and any other team or individual not representing the intercollegiate athletics program of the same member institution. (Revised: 1/10/91)

And 

• 17.02.7 Date of Competition, Countable, Individual Student-Athlete. A countable date of competition for an individual student-athlete is any date on which a student-athlete competes while representing the institution (see Bylaw 17.02.8) individually or as a member of the varsity, subvarsity or freshman team, unless a specific exemption for a particular date of competition is set forth in this bylaw.

So date of competition can have more than one match and still count as one toward the 12.8.3.1.7 Exception. By that measure I think the Collegiate Duals should count as two dates of competition, not three. Two duals one day (first "date of competition") and one dual the next day (second "date of competition").

Does anyone know if that interpretation is correct?

The Collegiate duals counted as 1 event. Meaning it only cost freshmen 1 of 5. Lotta layers to this new rule.

[MPhillips]

I believed it to count as one event...

[RYou]

But the rule(s) do not state "event", it references "date" of competition.

Let's say a team wrestled a tri meet on Sunday, with 2 duals and then had the third dual the following Friday.  Clearly that is 3 duals over 2 dates, same as the collegiate duals.  There is no exception for a tournament transpiring over multiple dates.  Same follows for Midlands if wrestling attached.

[Wrestleknownothing]

40 minutes ago, RYou said:

But the rule(s) do not state "event", it references "date" of competition.

Let's say a team wrestled a tri meet on Sunday, with 2 duals and then had the third dual the following Friday.  Clearly that is 3 duals over 2 dates, same as the collegiate duals.  There is no exception for a tournament transpiring over multiple dates.  Same follows for Midlands if wrestling attached.

I found this. too. Based on this it looks like the Collegiate Duals are considered a single date of competition.

• 17.28.5.1.1 Multiple-Day Competition and Dual Meets Within Three Consecutive Days. On not more than two occasions, an institution may count a multiple-day competition or two consecutive dual meets as one date of competition, if the following requirements are met: (Adopted: 6/20/11, Revised: 5/1/19 effective 8/1/19)
• (a) The multiple-day competition or two consecutive dual meets occur within three consecutive days; and
• (b) The institution participates in not more than one multiple-day event or not more than two dual meets during the three consecutive days.

Rules written in a way only a lawyer could love.

[gimpeltf]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I found this. too. Based on this it looks like the Collegiate Duals are considered a single date of competition.

• 17.28.5.1.1 Multiple-Day Competition and Dual Meets Within Three Consecutive Days. On not more than two occasions, an institution may count a multiple-day competition or two consecutive dual meets as one date of competition, if the following requirements are met: (Adopted: 6/20/11, Revised: 5/1/19 effective 8/1/19)
• (a) The multiple-day competition or two consecutive dual meets occur within three consecutive days; and
• (b) The institution participates in not more than one multiple-day event or not more than two dual meets during the three consecutive days.

Rules written in a way only a lawyer could love.

I didn't answer for this reason. The above refers to dates pertaining to institutions not necessarily individuals (who knows?).

I figure that it applies to both but ...

Like I often say- the compliance manual is like reading James Joyce's Ulysses- 500 pages of occasional gibberish. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I didn't answer for this reason. The above refers to dates pertaining to institutions not necessarily individuals (who knows?).

I figure that it applies to both but ...

Like I often say- the compliance manual is like reading James Joyce's Ulysses- 500 pages of occasional gibberish. 

Ahh. I missed that it is the institution clause. Here is the student athlete clause. As you suspected, it mirrors the instituion language:

17.28.5.2 Maximum Limitations -- Student-Athlete. An individual student-athlete may participate in each academic year in not more than 16 dates of competition in men's wrestling, which may include not more than two occasions in which a multiple-day event or two consecutive dual meets are held within three consecutive days that shall each count as a single date of competition (see Bylaw 17.28.5.1.1). This limitation includes those dates of competition in which the student represents the institution in accordance with Bylaw 17.02.8, including competition as a member of the varsity, junior varsity or freshman team of the institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/10/95 effective 8/1/95, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 5/1/19 effective 8/1/19, 6/23/20 effective 8/1/20)

[gimpeltf]

4 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Ahh. I missed that it is the institution clause. Here is the student athlete clause. As you suspected, it mirrors the instituion language:

17.28.5.2 Maximum Limitations -- Student-Athlete. An individual student-athlete may participate in each academic year in not more than 16 dates of competition in men's wrestling, which may include not more than two occasions in which a multiple-day event or two consecutive dual meets are held within three consecutive days that shall each count as a single date of competition (see Bylaw 17.28.5.1.1). This limitation includes those dates of competition in which the student represents the institution in accordance with Bylaw 17.02.8, including competition as a member of the varsity, junior varsity or freshman team of the institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/10/95 effective 8/1/95, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 5/1/19 effective 8/1/19, 6/23/20 effective 8/1/20)

Now that I think back, the confusion to me wasn't whether they had the same exceptions per se but whether a kid could use the two dates for the price of one exceptions on different dates than his institution if that possibility existed.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Rules written in a way only a lawyer could love.

Sooooooo should I consult Clue Heywood or do we want to get Vak's opinion first?

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Sooooooo should I consult Clue Heywood or do we want to get Vak's opinion first?

We need a Vak Attack.

[Husker_Du]

it counted as 1 date.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

I lean towards one date but I would assume that coaches run this question past their compliance folks(who then call Indy) for the answer.    I would hope that coaches don't rely solely on their own reading of the NCAA manual but when all else fails, I would bet they all read the different forums for the final ruling

[MPhillips]

9 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

I would bet they all read the different forums for the final ruling

I hope they came here first. We had this wrapped up within four post'.

[ionel]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

I hope they came here first. We had this wrapped up within four post'.

prob should take on the wibrukk issue here

[MPhillips]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

prob should take on the wibrukk issue here

Or, anywhere but here...