Perhaps better to have studs spread across RTCs?

[Dark Energy]

Spencer Lee - gets to Olympic Finals.  Iowa RTC did well.  

Sebastian Rivera gets bronze in a brutal weight.  Was silver before.  NY/NJ RTC?

Micic wins world championship in a tough Olympic weight.  Michigan RTC - there were other studs there too.

Vito at Cornell / Spartan - world title at non-Olympic weight.  Wasn’t sharing attention after Yianni didn’t make team

NLWC has done well in past but this Olympics, under performed relative to past.  So many studs.  Is there an issue with split attention?

This Olympics is ONE data point.  Not a trend and may just be a blip.

But, I can see there being goodness with a guy getting more dedicated focus and attention.  Curious to hear thoughts.

Were Elor, Sarah and Kennedy at distinct RTCs?

 

Edited August 12 by Dark Energy

[DocBB]

NLWC have done well at Worlds no doubt but not so much in the Olympics. Obviously we know what happened this year as all 4 entries underperformed expectations but in 2020/21 they also sent 3 guy and only DT took home the gold. Not saying that was a bad result necessarily though.

So to your question...yes, but I would say that in general to any situation when there is such a heavy concentration at one club.

Edited August 12 by DocBB

[Le duke]

NLWC have done well at Worlds no doubt but not so much in the Olympics. Obviously we know what happened this year as all 4 entries underperformed expectations but in 2020/21 they also sent 3 guy and only DT took home the gold. Not saying that was a bad result necessarily though.
So to your question...yes, but I would say that in general to any situation when there is such a heavy concentration at one club.

Aaron Brooks, who just completed his final NCAA season and had a handful of senior level freestyle matches … underperformed?

The guy was seconds away from beating the winner of his bracket and took a decisive bronze medal.


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[Caveira]

57 minutes ago, DocBB said:

NLWC have done well at Worlds no doubt but not so much in the Olympics. Obviously we know what happened this year as all 4 entries underperformed expectations but in 2020/21 they also sent 3 guy and only DT took home the gold. Not saying that was a bad result necessarily though.

So to your question...yes, but I would say that in general to any situation when there is such a heavy concentration at one club.

There were 5 entries.   One other got teched gave up a bakers dozen of sumo push outs “stall calls” and started in referees position instead of par teere.  

[MPhillips]

But he, "felt good" at the weight...

[RockLobster]

27 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Aaron Brooks, who just completed his final NCAA season and had a handful of senior level freestyle matches … underperformed?

The guy was seconds away from beating the winner of his bracket and took a decisive bronze medal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was never a big fan of Brooks. But I am now.

He was cool and collected in a place where that isn't easy. Wrestled strong and lit it up, until he made the choice to shut it down a little too early. He knows it, every wrestler knows it - you have to wrestle to the whistle. Always.

As much as we all know it, we see the same mistake happen all the time, at every level, even by the best. It's one of the human components that has never changed.

Turns out Brooks is human.

I've become a fan.

[DocBB]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

Aaron Brooks, who just completed his final NCAA season and had a handful of senior level freestyle matches … underperformed?

The guy was seconds away from beating the winner of his bracket and took a decisive bronze medal.


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He was picked to win by many..I think Flo had even split between Brooks and Yazadani in their picks. Either way he was picked to be Gold or Silver by everyone.

Edited August 12 by DocBB

[alliseeisgold]

5 hours ago, DocBB said:

He was picked to win by many..I think Flo had even split between Brooks and Yazadani in their picks. Either way he was picked to be Gold or Silver by everyone.

absolutely wild i see few people acting like usa didn't underperform - when they and everyone else predicted better results, we got great draws, and russia was not there.

If you think we did not underperform - you are admitting you wouldn't take brooks in a best of 5 series against the bulgarian. Shit - you'd take brooks tomorrow all day. He was controlling the first period.

Same with dake , your admitting you wouldn't take dake in a best of series against the japanese, would take him all day tomorrow. And admitting you wouldn't take snyder against the iranian, or parris.

That is the definition of underperforming - losing to guys you are better then.

[WrestlingRasta]

Dake beat the JPN last second the last time they wrestled. The JPN is ascending toward his peak, Dake descending away. There was also this guy in the bracket that teched him last time out.  Thats not an overwhelming favorite, unless you’re wearing the American goggles. 
 

Brooks was a wildcard. We (and by we I mean those who are able to take a world wide perspectice this, not we wearing the American goggles) weren’t sure what we were going to get out of Brooks. He made one freestyle mistake in his first real senior level competition, came home with a medal and was one mistake from wrestling for it all. Saying Brooks underperformed is ridiculous.  
 

Snyder had two guys in the bracket that beat him within the last year. Again, two guys ascending toward their peak while he is descending away.  He lost to them again, the first one much much closer than last time. 
 

Parris shit the bed. Can’t argue that.  Don’t know what the hell I was watching.  
 

57 certainly didn’t underperform and at 65 the world is much much better than we are. We’ve gotten used to that. 
 

Am I saying all is perfect and nothing needs to be done, of course not. Fortunately while we are hearing screaming from the cheap seats, the people in CoSprings are doing what they do at the end of each quad, evaluating and resetting. 
 

 

[Dark Energy]

Anyone want to discuss idea of the benefits of spreading studs across RTCs vs benefits of massing them? 

[WrestlingRasta]

I don’t understand this line of “spreading out across RTC’s”.  What are we going to do, dictate to these guys where they train and earn their living?    

 

 

[Dark Energy]

Dictate?  Of course not.  Why did you jump to that?  
 

A wrestler is deciding.  Go to place where there are many many super studs vying for attention and support or go someplace with fewer super studs and get more dedicated attention.  Perhaps there is a happy medium.  Too few super studs and the skillset in the room and coaching staff may be lacking.  Too many and the focus is diluted.  

[WrestlingRasta]

21 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Dictate?  Of course not.  Why did you jump to that?  
 

A wrestler is deciding.  Go to place where there are many many super studs vying for attention and support or go someplace with fewer super studs and get more dedicated attention.  Perhaps there is a happy medium.  Too few super studs and the skillset in the room and coaching staff may be lacking.  Too many and the focus is diluted.  

A lot of the talk I am seeing here and on other SM is to the effect of not 'allowing' so much concentration of our team in one RTC.   That's is where my comment comes from, not meant to single out your post, apologies not clear.

[1032004]

51 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Dictate?  Of course not.  Why did you jump to that?  
 

A wrestler is deciding.  Go to place where there are many many super studs vying for attention and support or go someplace with fewer super studs and get more dedicated attention.  Perhaps there is a happy medium.  Too few super studs and the skillset in the room and coaching staff may be lacking.  Too many and the focus is diluted.  

I think a Happy Medium is best, but I’m not sure a “lack of attention” has anything to do with any perceived underperformance by the NLWC, except for maybe whoever forgot to tell RBY how par terre works.  I know their guys downplay it but I can’t imagine it’s ideal to be in the room everyday with guys you’re competing against to make the world team.

It’d be great IMO to have like 4 evenly matched RTC’s, and then hey maybe they could wrestle a couple matches against each other which might help build some fans.

[MidwestMan]

What are the Japanese doing?  One training center?  Multi?  One set of national coaches with a developmental system?  Incentives?

So who is responsible for correcting the ship and getting it back on target?  Should fingers be pointing at training centers or USA Wrestling?

Take a lesson FROM USA track.  USA may have some of the fastest individual 100 meter sprinters in the world, but can't seem to take home gold in a "Team 400" relay because of handoffs.  Some country's have less talent, but more discipline, and work on the details that put them in position to win.

[BAC]

NLWC is obviously the top club in the US, and proved it by their international success over the years, by attracting so much top talent from other clubs, and by putting so many guys in the Olympics.  But everyone can't be an Olympic Champion.

The NLWC medal haul (2) was more than any other club.  It was short of their goals, no doubt, but there's no one you can look at and say "NLWC didn't have him prepared."  The guys who lost fought hard and came up short, and there's no reason to think they'd have fared better with another club.  

[Dark Energy]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

NLWC is obviously the top club in the US, and proved it by their international success over the years, by attracting so much top talent from other clubs, and by putting so many guys in the Olympics.  But everyone can't be an Olympic Champion.

The NLWC medal haul (2) was more than any other club.  It was short of their goals, no doubt, but there's no one you can look at and say "NLWC didn't have him prepared."  The guys who lost fought hard and came up short, and there's no reason to think they'd have fared better with another club.  

If that is true then I’d also suggest there is no reason NOT to think they would have fared better at another club. 
 

57kg Lee - silver.  Finals were the expectation.  Some felt gold was.  I’d call this met expectations.

65kg Zain - 0-1.  Seems hobbled by injury.  Sucks.  Can happen anywhere.

74kg Dake - bronze.  Losses to silver medalist.  Sidakov not there.  Game plan didn’t work.  Will call this as not meeting expectations.

86kg Brooks - so damn close to getting to finals.  Ugh.  I do agree that with some more freestyle, bettter results coming.

97kg Snyder - no medal.  No Russia.  Under performed expectations.  Yes, lost to guys he has lost to before.  Still, many thought NLWC was going to create some magic.

Hvy - Mason - meh.  Not good.

4 of 6 from NLWC.  1 was at expectations (Brooks) for me.  2 did not meet.  1 takes a flyer.  But note, 4 were on team!  That is good but 2 of the 4 are transplants that were already solidly on the US team and were having outstanding results.  

Non-NLWC guys - one met expectations, one did not meet expectations.

Kinda of a wash.  NLWC doesn’t seem worse.

Original question is still valid.  Just don’t know that we can answer in a solid way.

Well, anyone have insights on the women and their training approach?  

 

 

Edited August 12 by Dark Energy

[The_KC_Godfather]

To the OP's original question, my opinion is that iron sharpens iron from an active athlete perspective, so if we could have everybody in one place (ie. Parris training with Snyder), that would be best. But, you're not going to have all of the coaches in one place, which is the other side of the coin from (active athlete) practice partners. Terry isn't going to NLWC, but is he the best coach for some of the smaller guys (Lee, Gilman, Ramos, etc.)? Or is it just because they have experience with him from Iowa? Would Vito get to the next level if he were working with Terry? Would Yianni benefit from training at NLWC? Gable won gold training at GWC without elite level active athletes to practice with. Really hard to say what the right formula is.

Does anybody think that Dake took a step back with DT not in state college anymore to practice with, at least for the last few months? I know they practiced together a lot, but Dake had the same result in Tokyo when DT was still there, so not sure if that was a factor or not.

[Scouts Honor]

maybe the japanese just began their great decade... and we are coming out of ours

[Caveira]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:46 AM, alliseeisgold said:

absolutely wild i see few people acting like usa didn't underperform - when they and everyone else predicted better results, we got great draws, and russia was not there.

If you think we did not underperform - you are admitting you wouldn't take brooks in a best of 5 series against the bulgarian. Shit - you'd take brooks tomorrow all day. He was controlling the first period.

Same with dake , your admitting you wouldn't take dake in a best of series against the japanese, would take him all day tomorrow. And admitting you wouldn't take snyder against the iranian, or parris.

That is the definition of underperforming - losing to guys you are better then.

Dude.  The horse is dead.  

[alliseeisgold]

 

4 hours ago, Caveira said:

Dude.  The horse is dead.  

Nope. 6 weights. 4/6 lost matches we were favored in. So we went under expectations 70 percent of time.

Then when everyone makes a huge deal about the Olympics once every four years. About how it is so much more important then worlds ...it matters more. Failing expectations means more.

So I actually thought dake lost to the takatani that was pretty marginal and Burroughs best soundly multiple times. after knowing it's his brother and his track record it's not as bad.

But dake still was a betting favorite and the manner in which he lost via technical preparation and coaching was worse. And the match wasn't super close. .

No matter the metric. USA failed. In THE OLYMPICS which means 100x more to wrestling fans. 

[Caveira]

4 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

 

Nope. 6 weights. 4/6 lost matches we were favored in. So we went under expectations 70 percent of time.

Then when everyone makes a huge deal about the Olympics once every four years. About how it is so much more important then worlds ...it matters more. Failing expectations means more.

So I actually thought dake lost to the takatani that was pretty marginal and Burroughs best soundly multiple times. after knowing it's his brother and his track record it's not as bad.

But dake still was a betting favorite and the manner in which he lost via technical preparation and coaching was worse. And the match wasn't super close. .

No matter the metric. USA failed. In THE OLYMPICS which means 100x more to wrestling fans. 

I mean. The horse is dead.  You slayed it.  Your complaint is the same over and over and over….. and it doesn’t change.   You could be in politics lol.  No amount of words will change that.   What’s the definition of insanity?   Making the same point over and over expecting a different outcome.   Take a Valium or something.  Smoke a joint.   Go out for steak.
 

maybe if you put your issue in every thread the group think will change?   
 

consider changing your name to:

alliseeisthesameargumentoverandover.   
 

maybe a sig bet lol 

Edited August 13 by Caveira

[Caveira]

And 4:6 is is approx 66.666666666666666666% of the time.  Roughly.   That 3.3% roughly wants to divorce itself from your argument.  

Edited August 13 by Caveira

[scourge165]

On 8/12/2024 at 5:24 AM, Dark Energy said:

Anyone want to discuss idea of the benefits of spreading studs across RTCs vs benefits of massing them? 

I can't imagine we can actually answer this. 

When they're all at the same RTC, you have the best of the best competing vs each other. This certainly seems to have benefited the likes of Dake, Taylor among others in their goal of just getting to that level, making the teams and then winning world or Olympic Titles.

 

The other point, yo can focus on one athlete a bit more...I don't know how much that helps...which isn't me arguing it doesn't, it's just hard to quantify. If Brooks was at another RTC, does he take that shot late in the match?

It just feels like a guess. 

I'd lean toward the argument that the more elite, world medalist-type athletes you have in the room...the better you're going to be, but I don't know. It didn't seem to hurt Brooks ability to game plan for DT and beat him(or did it hurt DT's ability to game plan for Brooks? Though...I wouldn't really think arguably the best Wrestler in the world...at the time would need another coach to help him game plan). 

[Scouts Honor]

57 good

65: we had a guy who had to last minute qualify and also had a concussion

74: good... getting old

86 a newbie and good

97 uh... i dont know what to say, getting old? 

125  a newbie in a spot we had a stud