Post Olympics thoughts

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

This articulated my feeling very well.  A guy rolling across his own back (i.e. pinning himself) while the other wrestler remains sitting and never gets his shoulders closer than 2 feet to the mat does not indicate control at all to me.  Lying on one's stomach and spreading out arms and legs as widely as possible seems to me to be the definition of stalling, not wrestling.  I wish some sort of merge of folk and free could get the best of both - no resting in neutral, top, or bottom.  Control is control and not the result of nearly random dynamic motion.  And I bet that is the most original thought ever stated on this board!

AGON was a pretty good variant at its time. Too bad it didn't last.

[alex1fly]

33 minutes ago, meZYNbrink said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but folkstyle (at least NCAA) has the neutral danger takedown. I feel that has really improved the product as far as limiting the amount of Delgado rolls across the back from neutral. And without delving too deep into the 3pt vs 2pt takedown argument, I think it does incentivize takedowns more than ever before. Wrestlers are better than ever and the sport evolves constantly, I don't think we will ever go back to looking exactly like the 80's and 90's, and I don't think we should want to.

I've wrestled freestyle since I was a kid. Was never that great at either free or folk but everything is relative. I'm definitely a fan of both and like I've said before, for the last decade+ I've been as locked in to the international scene (seniors, juniors, some cadet events) as I have been to domestic folkstyle competitions. I think I'm familiar with both. Obviously bias plays a role here, but I find it hard to argue that leg laces and gut wrenches are as much a demonstration of control as a 4 second tilt (both exposure points without really attacking for the fall). I like freestyle. I just think it's an inferior product. When you watch a FS match, it feels like you're watching the 100m sprint. Folkstyle feels more like the 1500m (a race most prefer to watch). 

Great take. Love hearing from folks that have actually done the sport.

Agreed on everything you wrote here. Freestyle is fun to watch for takedowns that's about it. And the refs get really involved which is weird. 

Folkstyle matches could be a minute or two shorter and I'd be fine with that. Also more double stall calls. Both of those things would increase the action, if that's the goal. 

[WrestlingRash]

The format of the Olympics sucks. Pools would be much better. The margin of error is razor thin and any one of 8-10 guys per weight could win it. Pools account for this better than the current bracket system. Also, bring 2 per country. Swimming brings 2 per event. Grow the sport. Make more Olympians. 

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but folkstyle (at least NCAA) has the neutral danger takedown. I feel that has really improved the product as far as limiting the amount of Delgado rolls across the back from neutral. And without delving too deep into the 3pt vs 2pt takedown argument, I think it does incentivize takedowns more than ever before. Wrestlers are better than ever and the sport evolves constantly, I don't think we will ever go back to looking exactly like the 80's and 90's, and I don't think we should want to.

I've wrestled freestyle since I was a kid. Was never that great at either free or folk but everything is relative. I'm definitely a fan of both and like I've said before, for the last decade+ I've been as locked in to the international scene (seniors, juniors, some cadet events) as I have been to domestic folkstyle competitions. I think I'm familiar with both. Obviously bias plays a role here, but I find it hard to argue that leg laces and gut wrenches are as much a demonstration of control as a 4 second tilt (both exposure points without really attacking for the fall). I like freestyle. I just think it's an inferior product. When you watch a FS match, it feels like you're watching the 100m sprint. Folkstyle feels more like the 1500m (a race most prefer to watch). 

Nope, I’m suggesting awarding wrestlers for a move that goes feet to back from neutral. So essentially giving four points for a throw that goes feet to defensive wrestler exposure regardless of whether the traditional takedown occurs.

 

So let’s say you shoot on an opponent, he stops your shot, then chest wrap/tosses you over and you both land in a front headlock position or with you holding the leg (after you exposed your back) he gets 4 points and is considered in the top position. If you then finish your shot and end up on top it counts as a 2 point reversal. If he finished the front headlock and ends up behind, there are no additional points because he is already considered in top position. 

[TylerDurden]

2 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

I've wrestled freestyle since I was a kid. Was never that great at either free or folk but everything is relative. I'm definitely a fan of both and like I've said before, for the last decade+ I've been as locked in to the international scene (seniors, juniors, some cadet events) as I have been to domestic folkstyle competitions. I think I'm familiar with both. Obviously bias plays a role here, but I find it hard to argue that leg laces and gut wrenches are as much a demonstration of control as a 4 second tilt (both exposure points without really attacking for the fall). I like freestyle. I just think it's an inferior product. When you watch a FS match, it feels like you're watching the 100m sprint. Folkstyle feels more like the 1500m (a race most prefer to watch). 

No one is arguing that. 

It's fine if you prefer the rule set in folkstyle, but a different scoring emphasis doesn't make freestyle look "less like wrestling," which was your original contention.

[wrestle87]

On 8/12/2024 at 12:23 PM, ionel said:

In watching the better Japanese what I noted is the were getting to the legs better than us more like Smith.  That said though the sport has changed a lot, everyone has better technique and access to film on opponents etc. yet the Japanese had success.  

There is no question our leg attacks were nowhere to be found when they really mattered, which is baffling.  Leg attacks are almost always the difference maker for US wrestlers, we typically navigate and manage opponents’ entire bodies less well, and just make up for it by picking a limb and blasting through it or ripping it off.  Not this year.

[The Kid]

5 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

Exactly, never said FS was easier than folk, just that it looks less like wrestling.

In your astute opinion. 

[meZYNbrink]

1 hour ago, The Kid said:

In your astute opinion. 

Forums are for opinions my friend!

[The Kid]

21 minutes ago, meZYNbrink said:

Forums are for opinions my friend!

Yes. Even bad opinions are still opinions.  

[alliseeisgold]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:41 AM, Truzzcat said:

I think we should be very encouraged by Japans results this year. They have had very strong results in the age level tournaments in the previous year's predating the United States pretty much dominating the last 2-3 years. My hope is that in 2028 we can have a similar showing that Japan just did because of the investment we have put in our cadet and junior guys.

The mens improvement seems as rapid as any country. When Japan came to USA for world cup they had 2 guys of consequence that I can recall. 

Now they are deep. 

The coaching and improvement in Japan just far exceed what we have going on here.

Take a look at this.....Japan developed technique never thought of by USA coaching geniuses 

 

[Scouts Honor]

5 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

No one is arguing that. 

It's fine if you prefer the rule set in folkstyle, but a different scoring emphasis doesn't make freestyle look "less like wrestling," which was your original contention.

a takedown contest

and a sumo contest... sort of wrestling

with a few guys flailing around with another guy ahold of their ankles...

[The Kid]

47 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

The mens improvement seems as rapid as any country. When Japan came to USA for world cup they had 2 guys of consequence that I can recall. 

Now they are deep. 

The coaching and improvement in Japan just far exceed what we have going on here.

Take a look at this.....Japan developed technique never thought of by USA coaching geniuses 

I read thst Japan had 13 wrestlers in the Olympics with 11 medals.

That's very impressive. 

 

 

 

[The Kid]

10 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

a takedown contest

and a sumo contest... sort of wrestling

with a few guys flailing around with another guy ahold of their ankles...

Yes. The ankle trap from top in folkstyle while parallel riding is incredible! It will take you to the top.

Plus, Grey shirt, red shirt, and be a 21 year old freshman! 

[Scouts Honor]

grey shirts affect the product on the mat and make it harder to understand...

is that what you are saying? 

 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, alliseeisgold said:

The mens improvement seems as rapid as any country. When Japan came to USA for world cup they had 2 guys of consequence that I can recall. 

Now they are deep. 

The coaching and improvement in Japan just far exceed what we have going on here.

Take a look at this.....Japan developed technique never thought of by USA coaching geniuses 

 

great post. 

i think it bolsters my thought... 

where are we going to find all these qualified coaches

[152lbs]

The US has always been behind in technique vs the field. 

[alliseeisgold]

2 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

great post. 

i think it bolsters my thought... 

where are we going to find all these qualified coaches

 

2 hours ago, 152lbs said:

The US has always been behind in technique vs the field. 

As much cross training between countries and Russians who have migrated here . You would think we would all be on a level playing field technique wise. 

We need to bribe a Japanese coach with money. 

[wrestle87]

3 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

a takedown contest

and a sumo contest... sort of wrestling

with a few guys flailing around with another guy ahold of their ankles...

This year was extremely sumo-y.  Obviously coaches, teams and styles will adapt to aim for low hanging fruit, it has really judo-fied wrestling a lot in terms of the start stop nature.  Not a good thing.

Wrestlers who can push well can get into medal matches, which is dumb.  Rules now mandate points be put on the board, and they get there, but the product is getting diluted.  They really need to bring back ties and overtime.  Criteria blows.

 

[lu1979]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:15 PM, meZYNbrink said:

 

3. I think Mason losing first round was the biggest shocker, but for those who have paid attention to the scene for a while, these things happen every year, and it's only recently that we've been spoiled with a relatively low amount of upsets. A few years ago and this would've been par for the course for us. The relevant thing is that crazy things happen every year, especially in the Olympics. 

 

Mason did have the bad luck to draw the best of the unseeded wrestlers.  When I saw he had Munktar I knew it would be a tough match.  Parris could have won it but I am not sure you could really call it an upset.  Munktar was a World Silver medalist a few years ago and beat Masoumi who Parris took a loss to.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

12 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

The mens improvement seems as rapid as any country. When Japan came to USA for world cup they had 2 guys of consequence that I can recall. 

Now they are deep. 

The coaching and improvement in Japan just far exceed what we have going on here.

Take a look at this.....Japan developed technique never thought of by USA coaching geniuses 

 

There’s a lot of unnecessary writing here. 

Japan getting to Dakes leg was not the result of some magical new technique. Dake allowed him to get to the leg so he could attempt his chest wrap  

As far as the chest wrap counter: nothing different than what Sidakov did, which also was not revolutionary as Askren discussed it on FRL before and after 2023 worlds. 
 

Nothing to really see here, except perhaps that Dake seems to be like that kid you try to coach up and he says “thanks coach… but I think I’m going to continue to do things my way.” And I suppose he’s warned that right  

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

Mason did have the bad luck to draw the best of the unseeded wrestlers.  When I saw he had Munktar I knew it would be a tough match.  Parris could have won it but I am not sure you could really call it an upset.  Munktar was a World Silver medalist a few years ago and beat Masoumi who Parris took a loss to.  

Munktar also gave us an anxious moment vs Steveson in the Tokyo Olympics. 

[meZYNbrink]

15 hours ago, The Kid said:

Yes. The ankle trap from top in folkstyle while parallel riding is incredible! It will take you to the top.

Plus, Grey shirt, red shirt, and be a 21 year old freshman! 

All I'm saying the ankle ride maintains control, as boring as it can be to watch. Eligibility rules in NCAA are broken too, don't get me wrong. I remember a time when you'd get 4 years and graduate at 21/22. 7 years in college is too long, take it from me.