Lopez > Phelps

[denger]

7 minutes ago, boconnell said:

What makes Biles the greatest gymnast over the woman who had more golds, more silvers, more bronzes, and more total medals in the same number of Olympics?

Biles set new standards in the sport. She set new expectations for what greatness is and how the judges sort it. 

I don't know who the other "woman who had more golds..." was, but I'll go ahead and assume she also set new standards in her time. 

In discussions about goats, I think the comparison to who showed up to what kind of competition is paramount. For all I know, Biles would have been disqualified in the time of the earlier Great...Or, it's a safer assumption to guess that the judges wouldn't have known what to do with that information. 

I can't make an argument for who, but I hope you see my point. 

[alliseeisgold]

Phelps should not be in the conversation. Marshon has destroyed his times by many seconds and their coach has declared marshon better. Phelps is aided by relays from his teammates strength. Marshon could easily win the same amount of golds with better teammates. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Phelps should not be in the conversation. Marshon has destroyed his times by many seconds and their coach has declared marshon better. Phelps is aided by relays from his teammates strength. Marshon could easily win the same amount of golds with better teammates. 

Marchand .... won 4 individual golds in Paris, Phelps won 5 individual golds in Beijing. 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

15 minutes ago, denger said:

Biles set new standards in the sport. She set new expectations for what greatness is and how the judges sort it. 

I don't know who the other "woman who had more golds..." was, but I'll go ahead and assume she also set new standards in her time. 

In discussions about goats, I think the comparison to who showed up to what kind of competition is paramount. For all I know, Biles would have been disqualified in the time of the earlier Great...Or, it's a safer assumption to guess that the judges wouldn't have known what to do with that information. 

I can't make an argument for who, but I hope you see my point. 

Indeed. There are 5 (and about to be 6) moves named after Biles. She is doing things  ever done before.

[alliseeisgold]

22 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Marchand .... won 4 individual golds in Paris, Phelps won 5 individual golds in Beijing. 

 

It doesn't even matter who has more medals. Marchand is more dominate and by a considerable margin. He's better. In multiple strokes. 

[wrestlingshoe]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

What makes Biles the greatest gymnast over the woman who had more golds, more silvers, more bronzes, and more total medals in the same number of Olympics?

Bikes is the most decorated gymnast of all time, 11 Olympic and 30 World medals. 

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, boconnell said:

What makes Biles the greatest gymnast over the woman who had more golds, more silvers, more bronzes, and more total medals in the same number of Olympics?

I'm not an expert on the sport, but I'm pretty sure it's not even a question. I think she's at like 20+ world championship gold medals and 7 at the olympics. She also objectively has done moves that are much more difficult than anyone else ever has or has even attempted.  It's not really like wrestling where we can debate whether Jordan Burroughs could have beaten Saitiev.  You can see the video of the moves/flips that they do in gymnastics and hers are objectively more difficult. So I think we are in Wayne Gretzky territory with her, where it's not even up for debate. 

Edited August 7 by billyhoyle

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

I'm not an expert on the sport, but I'm pretty sure it's not even a question. I think she's at like 20+ world championship gold medals and 7 at the olympics. She also objectively has done moves that are much more difficult than anyone else ever has or has even attempted.  It's not really like wrestling where we can debate whether Jordan Burroughs could have beaten Saitiev.  You can see the video of the moves/flips that they do in gymnastics and hers are objectively more difficult. So I think we are in Wayne Gretzky territory with her, where it's not even up for debate. 

The Soviets had a woman (Larisa Latynina) win 18 Olympic medals and 9 olympic golds.  Both numbers are higher than Biles.  I think you can definitely make an argument for Biles, but I don't understand how you can say it's not even a question that she's better than a woman who won more golds and more medals at the same number of Olympics.  

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, boconnell said:

What makes Biles the greatest gymnast over the woman who had more golds, more silvers, more bronzes, and more total medals in the same number of Olympics?

Well...that you don't know her name is a good starting point.

That Biles has I believe 5...things named after her.

What makes Jordan the better Basketball player than Russell despite Russell having more rings? The consensus. That's what. Biles does things no other Gymnast in the world has ever accomplished. Latynina isn't and hasn't been considered the greatest. Korbut or Comăneci have stronger arguments, but...pretty much all common sense. Competing in an era in which there were VERY few women competing in Gymnastics in the 50s vs the modern day is another determining factor, how long Biles has been the best in the world, the World Championships.

It's kinda like comparing an Olympic Wrestler from the 1930s to Sadulaev. 

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

I'm not an expert on the sport, but I'm pretty sure it's not even a question. I think she's at like 20+ world championship gold medals and 7 at the olympics. She also objectively has done moves that are much more difficult than anyone else ever has or has even attempted.  It's not really like wrestling where we can debate whether Jordan Burroughs could have beaten Saitiev.  You can see the video of the moves/flips that they do in gymnastics and hers are objectively more difficult. So I think we are in Wayne Gretzky territory with her, where it's not even up for debate. 

No, it's not a question or a debate.

THOUGH...it is cool to go back and look at some of the other greats. Korbut is a more or again, Comăneci were also incredible. 

This is...amazing. Illegal due to the danger, but amazing.

 

This was revolutionary. It'd been more about just ballet-themed...uh...I guess posses on the bars. You could move the bars back then so it was easier to go back and forth and you'd actually be on both at one time showing off your balance(I'm hardly an expert, just learned some of this against my will when I was younger, LOL)...but this was wild. Similar to what Biles has done with all the moves SHE has created, but Korbut changed the sport here. 

 

 

 

 

(Here is a better explanation of the differences and why it was banned and...a lot of shit I just don't know/didn't articulate well). 

 

Edited August 7 by scourge165

[Wrestleknownothing]

6 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

It doesn't even matter who has more medals. Marchand is more dominate and by a considerable margin. He's better. In multiple strokes. 

Then why did you make that part of your argument?

[Lleynor]

13 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I’m sure it’s minority opinion, but I think there’s a good case to make for Lopez over Phelps as the GOAT of the Olympic Games. Phelps overall medal count is unbelievable, but he is also in the only sport that provides that number of opportunities. To put it simply, Phelps was the best swimmer at 4 Olympics, and Lopez was the best wrestler at 5 Olympics. It may be hard to validate if Lopez truly was the best wrestler at each of those Olympics because there are two “events” in the sport of wrestling - freestyle and Greco. But I would think you could argue that he was the “best” overall at each of those games. He’s in the heaviest weight class and I’ve heard it said that a Greco wrestler would do better in freestyle than a freestyle wrestler would in Greco (not sure if that can be verified though). Was Phelps the best individual swimmer at each of his Games? I’d assume so, but maybe someone that follows swimming like WKN can verify?

I disagree with this completely. Lopez winning Gold made him the best Wrestler in his weight, maybe not the best Wrestler overall even. No one on this board has ever stated he's the current P4P guy. Career though? Wow, obviously up there. 

But Phelps winning 6 Gold and 2 Bronze in 2004 showcased him as one of the best Olympians ever. His dominance in all facets is equal to a Wrestler competing in FS and GR. Is that against the rules?

And then 2008 happened.... that is easily one of the highest achievements in Modern Sports History. He is all alone on a mountain with that record; 8 Golds and zero losses. 

I love Wrestling like all of us do obviously. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. 23 Gold Medals my friend. 23....

[Mr. PeanutButter]

10 hours ago, alliseeisgold said:

It doesn't even matter who has more medals. Marchand is more dominate and by a considerable margin. He's better. In multiple strokes. 

Phelps won the 400 IM, 200 IM, and 200 fly by greater margins and in world record times, all at the Olympics. If you compare Phelps 200 free vs Marchand's 200 breast, Phelps has a greater margin of victory in that event as well. Phelps won one more individual event than Marchand did, at the same age.

You're gonna have to give the exact quote where Bob Bowman said that Marchand is better. The only thing I've seen him say about Phelps vs Marchand is that they are very similar but also different (gasp)

[Phantom]

What % of children/people have exposure to track (running)?  Maybe 99%

 

What % for swimming? 

And Gymnastics?

And Wrestling?  

 

Swimming has to have the smallest "pool" of athletes for competition (for hundreds of reasons).

Bolt is hard to argue against...

 

 

 

[alliseeisgold]

22 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Phelps won the 400 IM, 200 IM, and 200 fly by greater margins and in world record times, all at the Olympics. If you compare Phelps 200 free vs Marchand's 200 breast, Phelps has a greater margin of victory in that event as well. Phelps won one more individual event than Marchand did, at the same age.

You're gonna have to give the exact quote where Bob Bowman said that Marchand is better. The only thing I've seen him say about Phelps vs Marchand is that they are very similar but also different (gasp)

Uh marchand best Phelps time in all those races above.

I watched the entire swimming and it was quoted he said that during broadcast. Also Bowman quoted saying marchand asked how much Phelps time was in their most arduous practice session and marchand best it by 5-6 seconds. Broadcast also pointed out how marchand under water is better then Phelps 

 

 

[Preceptor]

If wrestling were like swimming Lopez would have been able to enter into all of the Greco weights.  The various swimming events equate to the different weight classes in my mind. Similar to the multiple events in gymnastics.  Lastly, he did not have access to any team/relay medals.

 

Assuming he won every Greco-Roman weight class, he would have earned 32 Gold medals throughout the last 5 Olympics.  Let's say he gets tired and loses 4 or 5 matches.  He would have earned 28 Gold medals.  

 

In my mind, the better metric when comparing the different relative success is the gold medal percentage.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

3 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Uh marchand best Phelps time in all those races above.

I watched the entire swimming and it was quoted he said that during broadcast. Also Bowman quoted saying marchand asked how much Phelps time was in their most arduous practice session and marchand best it by 5-6 seconds. Broadcast also pointed out how marchand under water is better then Phelps 

 

 

Marchand is definitely better underwater, and Bowman has publicly talked about this so you're right on that one.

I watched the international broadcast so that I could see the medal ceremonies and not have to sit through 20 minutes of commercials between events so I don't know what was said during broadcast. In an interview that Bowman gave in May he said that Marchand could not do the practice sets that Phelps did in freestyle but was close in butterfly and backstroke.

And, yeah, nobody is disputing that Marchand is faster than Phelps. You would hope so since over 16 years have passed (since 2008, when Phelps was in his prime), right? The thing to look at is how dominant is Marchand relative to his competition, and in that regard he falls behind Phelps. It remains to be seen if Marchand can match Phelps' longevity, which is one of the major reasons Phelps is given GOAT status

[alliseeisgold]

1 minute ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Marchand is definitely better underwater, and Bowman has publicly talked about this so you're right on that one.

I watched the international broadcast so that I could see the medal ceremonies and not have to sit through 20 minutes of commercials between events so I don't know what was said during broadcast. In an interview that Bowman gave in May he said that Marchand could not do the practice sets that Phelps did in freestyle but was close in butterfly and backstroke.

And, yeah, nobody is disputing that Marchand is faster than Phelps. You would hope so since over 16 years have passed (since 2008, when Phelps was in his prime), right? The thing to look at is how dominant is Marchand relative to his competition, and in that regard he falls behind Phelps. It remains to be seen if Marchand can match Phelps' longevity, which is one of the major reasons Phelps is given GOAT status

Your takes are horrible. Marchand best the world record holder in the fly as his competition. Phelps also had swim suits that are now banned technology due to being able to swim faster. Phelps and marchand are both in modern age of swimming so times matter. 

[alliseeisgold]

There's many guys who are good at specialization in one sport and elite.

There's few who are elite at multiple. It's what makes bo Jackson the best athlete of all time or deion Sanders. And it's what makes Eddie eagen the greatest Olympian ever.

Eddie Eagan, USA   Sports: Men’s Boxing, Men’s Bobslei After competing in boxing for his first two Olympic Games in 1920 and 1924, Eagan decided to try his hand at the bobsleigh at the 1932 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid. At the end of his sporting career, he had two gold medals to boast of—one for boxing, and one for bobsleigh.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

23 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Your takes are horrible. Marchand best the world record holder in the fly as his competition. Phelps also had swim suits that are now banned technology due to being able to swim faster. Phelps and marchand are both in modern age of swimming so times matter. 

I think you might be confused about what the actual topic of discussion is, which is who the better Olympic athlete is, Lopez or Phelps. You seem to be arguing that, because Marchand is slightly faster than Phelps was, that means that he is the better Olympian and that the original topic of Phelps vs Lopez has no merit. This might shatter your mind but Marchand can be a faster swimmer yet Phelps is still the better, more successful swimmer and Olympic athlete, by every metric. You need to step back a bit and look at the whole picture rather than being fixated only on the times. 

The point about the suits is a good, interesting one. If you are so passionate, I encourage you to look into how the technology of the 2008 LZR compares to modern textiles (hint, drag coefficient and compression are actually better now). Full leg and body suits are banned and those certainly gave an advantage but that advantage was available to everyone. Phelps broke records and won gold before and after the tech suits. 

[ionel]

[MPhillips]

58 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Your takes are horrible.

How do they stack up regarding your takes on Amit...

[Fan4Life]

I think it's impossible and unfair to compare athletes across sports.  It's fair to argue that Michael Phelps is the GOAT Olympic swimmer, and Simone Biles is the GOAT Olympic Gymnastic, and Lopez is the GOAT Olympic GR Wrestler.  But to say that one or the other is the greatest overall Olympic athlete ever is an impossible argument to make.  

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Carl Lewis when it comes to greatest Olympic athlete.  Lewis was a 4-time Olympian, and would have competed in 5 Olympics if not for the 1980 boycott (where he probably would have won a couple additional medals).  He not only competed in the sprints, winning a dozen Olympic and world championship gold medals in the 100m and 200m disciplines, but another 6 Olympic and world championship gold medals in the long jump.  Overall, he finished his career with a total of 20 Olympic and world championship medals, with all but 3 of them gold. Of his 9 Olympic gold medals and 1 silver, undoubtedly his most impressive Olympic performance came when he equaled Jesse Owen's feat of winning 4 golds in a single Olympics (in the 100m, 200m, 4x100m relay, and long jump).

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 hour ago, Fan4Life said:

I think it's impossible and unfair to compare athletes across sports.  It's fair to argue that Michael Phelps is the GOAT Olympic swimmer, and Simone Biles is the GOAT Olympic Gymnastic, and Lopez is the GOAT Olympic GR Wrestler.  But to say that one or the other is the greatest overall Olympic athlete ever is an impossible argument to make.  

Agree that comparing across sports doesn't make sense. It's just a little annoying how Phelps and Biles are treated like Olympic royalty (deservedly so) and will be heavily featured in future broadcasts for the foreseeable future while Lopez, who is equally accomplished and has done great things for the sport & Olympic movement, will likely be yet another forgotten Olympics alum.

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Agree that comparing across sports doesn't make sense. It's just a little annoying how Phelps and Biles are treated like Olympic royalty (deservedly so) and will be heavily featured in future broadcasts for the foreseeable future while Lopez, who is equally accomplished and has done great things for the sport & Olympic movement, will likely be yet another forgotten Olympics alum.

It does not hurt their cause that a US network is paying billions to sell stories.

Edit: That. And swimming is the highest form of sport.

Edited August 7 by Wrestleknownothing