Lopez > Phelps

[Eagle26]

I’m sure it’s minority opinion, but I think there’s a good case to make for Lopez over Phelps as the GOAT of the Olympic Games. Phelps overall medal count is unbelievable, but he is also in the only sport that provides that number of opportunities. To put it simply, Phelps was the best swimmer at 4 Olympics, and Lopez was the best wrestler at 5 Olympics. It may be hard to validate if Lopez truly was the best wrestler at each of those Olympics because there are two “events” in the sport of wrestling - freestyle and Greco. But I would think you could argue that he was the “best” overall at each of those games. He’s in the heaviest weight class and I’ve heard it said that a Greco wrestler would do better in freestyle than a freestyle wrestler would in Greco (not sure if that can be verified though). Was Phelps the best individual swimmer at each of his Games? I’d assume so, but maybe someone that follows swimming like WKN can verify?

[jackwebster]

I think the counter argument might be that Lopez could have wrestled both styles but did not. Phelps swam in ? styles.

[russelscout]

Swimming gives out too many medals. 50, 100, and 200 for free, breast, fly and back seems like overkill, especially when the winners at 100 are usually contenders at either 50 or 200. Then you have the relays which is not an individual effort. Lopez achievements are far more impressive in my opinion.

Edited August 6 by russelscout

[ionel]

Of course he is.  We all know wrestling > swimming therefore ...

Well ... ok one of us on these here boards does not know.  

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

12 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Swimming gives out too many medals. 50, 100, and 200 for free, breast, fly and back seems like overkill, especially when the winners at 100 are usually contenders at either 50 or 200. Then you have the relays which is not an individual effort. Lopez achievements are far more impressive in my opinion.

This.  There are 35 swimming events in the Olympics, and a swimmer could theoretically swim in 18 of the 35 events.  Even if a wrestler could wrestle both freestyle and greco at most they could win 2 medals per Olympics.

[Eagle26]

28 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

I think the counter argument might be that Lopez could have wrestled both styles but did not. Phelps swam in ? styles.

Yes, but wrestling in both styles is way more complex and way more rare than swimming multiple events. There’s a lot of technique to swimming, but not even close to the amount in wrestling. So I don’t think competing in multiple swimming events really makes you stand out that much more. When was the last time a wrestler even qualified for both styles in the Olympics? That’s not a fair comparison IMO

[PortaJohn]

paging @Wrestleknownothing...code blue.  I repeat code blue aquatics ward

Edited August 7 by PortaJohn

[billyhoyle]

Phelps winning 8/8 gold medals is a singular accomplishment that may never be done again, just like Lopez winning gold in 5 straight olympics might never be done again. 

Usain Bolt is the single most impressive athlete that I've ever seen compete in the olympics though. The reason I say that is that I don't think there is a person who has ever lived that could have been faster. And he maintained what he did over 3 olympic games. I'm not sure his 100 or 200m records will fall any time soon. Lopez is incredible, and the greatest wrestler of all time, but I don't think the best athletes in the world become wrestlers. 

With that said, Simone BIles might be the greatest olympic athlete of all time.  She is the greatest gymnast ever, which is one of the marquee sports in the olympics.  She also competed well beyond what is typical for female gymnasts. And she is a survivor of sexual abuse from a predator in USA gymnastics, and came back from that abuse to win again after struggling mentally because of it.  It is a story that we will only appreciate more with time, since I don't think people really understand the magnitude of what she has overcome and accomplished. I don't think there is a story as impactful in sports. 

Edited August 7 by billyhoyle

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

paging @Wrestleknownothing...code blue.  I repeat code blue aquatics ward

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, billyhoyle said:

Usain Bolt is the single most impressive athlete that I've ever seen compete in the olympics though. The reason I say that is that I don't think there is a person who has ever lived that could have been faster. And he maintained what he did over 3 olympic games. I'm not sure his 100 or 200m records will fall any time soon. Lopez is incredible, and the greatest wrestler of all time, but I don't think the best athletes in the world become wrestlers. 

I agree with the Usain Bolt part but disagree with Lopez as best ever.  Greco is a lower form of grappling vs Freestyle and both are inferior to Folkstyle. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

44 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I’m sure it’s minority opinion, but I think there’s a good case to make for Lopez over Phelps as the GOAT of the Olympic Games. Phelps overall medal count is unbelievable, but he is also in the only sport that provides that number of opportunities. To put it simply, Phelps was the best swimmer at 4 Olympics, and Lopez was the best wrestler at 5 Olympics. It may be hard to validate if Lopez truly was the best wrestler at each of those Olympics because there are two “events” in the sport of wrestling - freestyle and Greco. But I would think you could argue that he was the “best” overall at each of those games. He’s in the heaviest weight class and I’ve heard it said that a Greco wrestler would do better in freestyle than a freestyle wrestler would in Greco (not sure if that can be verified though). Was Phelps the best individual swimmer at each of his Games? I’d assume so, but maybe someone that follows swimming like WKN can verify?

No because swimming >> wrestling.

I am not sure Lopez was the best at all 5 Olympics even though he was the best at his style at his weight. Phelps was definitely the best at 3 of his 5 Olympics and an argument can be made for 4 of 5 as he was most accomplished 4 times. His first Oly at 15 he got nothing.

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

This.  There are 35 swimming events in the Olympics, and a swimmer could theoretically swim in 18 of the 35 events.  Even if a wrestler could wrestle both freestyle and greco at most they could win 2 medals per Olympics.

Not even theoretucally could you swim 18 of 35 events. 

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

No because swimming >> wrestling.

Swimming ... are we talking swimming?!

[russelscout]

18 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Phelps winning 8/8 gold medals is a singular accomplishment that may never be done again, just like Lopez winning gold in 5 straight olympics might never be done again. 

Usain Bolt is the single most impressive athlete that I've ever seen compete in the olympics though. The reason I say that is that I don't think there is a person who has ever lived that could have been faster. And he maintained what he did over 3 olympic games. I'm not sure his 100 or 200m records will fall any time soon. Lopez is incredible, and the greatest wrestler of all time, but I don't think the best athletes in the world become wrestlers. 

With that said, Simone BIles might be the greatest olympic athlete of all time.  She is the greatest gymnast ever, which is one of the marquee sports in the olympics.  She also competed well beyond what is typical for female gymnasts. And she is a survivor of sexual abuse from a predator in USA gymnastics, and came back from that abuse to win again after struggling mentally because of it.  It is a story that we will only appreciate more with time, since I don't think people really understand the magnitude of what she has overcome and accomplished. I don't think there is a story as impactful in sports. 

Simone has completely changed the sport. I think she has a unique body type that has aided her longevity, but also, I expect the average age of gymnasts to continue to climb a bit. The old Soviet way of starving these girls and overtraining to get one good Olympics out of them is going to the wayside.  

[Mr. PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Swimming gives out too many medals. 50, 100, and 200 for free, breast, fly and back seems like overkill, especially when the winners at 100 are usually contenders at either 50 or 200. Then you have the relays which is not an individual effort. Lopez achievements are far more impressive in my opinion.

There is only one 50 event contested at the Olympics and the 50/100/200 freestyle triple has, to my knowledge, never been done ( at the Olympics). 

The 2 sports are as different as chess is to bowling so comparisons will always be fraught with challenges but I can definitely still appreciate your sentiment. 

It blows my mind what Lopez can do at 41 years old in a sport so grueling and 5 consecutive golds is unpredecented so he certainly has a strong case for goat Olympian. 

I'm super biased but, if you can, entertain the following:

Phelps set something like 39 world records, which makes it easy to compare him against other goat swimmers. Unfortunately, wrestling doesn't lend itself well to similar comparisons. 

The changes in technique and race tactics he introduced are now commonplace. He visibly changed how swimming is swum. Did Lopez change how greco is wrestled? Honestly asking, because I don't know. 

Phelps brought the world record in the 200 IM from 1:58 to 1:54, which is the biggest comparative improvement in an event by a single swimmer in the modern era. He progressed the world records in 4 other events by smaller, though still significant margins. This ties into my previous point, which is that it's much easier to see how far Phelps advanced his sport, something that I don't know to be the case for Lopez. 

This also factors into how dominant Phelps was relative to his competition. Yes, swimming has a ton of events, but that means you have to compare him against other swimmers, not against athletes from other sports. Besides having the greatest versatility of any swimmer all time, he also holds some of the largest margins of victory in swimming Olympics history - - all done across multiple events and multiple Olympics. 

Phelps' dominance, versatility, and longevity are what set him far, far, faaaaar above any other swimmer in history. For some people, like myself, that is enough to make him the greatest Olympic athlete in history. 

Lopez' biggest case is that he remained undefeated across 5 Olympics. That is enough for some to put him above Phelps. Despite my bias, I can appreciate this argument and be almost swayed by it, were it not for the lasting changes that Phelps left on the sport. 

 

Edited August 7 by Mr. PeanutButter

[scribers]

López still isn’t better than Karolin 

[ionel]

1 minute ago, scribers said:

López still isn’t better than Karolin 

who?

[PortaJohn]

2 minutes ago, scribers said:

López still isn’t better than Karolin 

For sure.  Not even close. Karolin Wolter > Jennifer Lopez

[scribers]

I wouldn’t put anyone in front of JLo. 

[russelscout]

2 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

There is only one 50 event contested at the Olympics and the 50/100/200 freestyle triple has, to my knowledge, never been done ( at the Olympics). 

The 2 sports are as different as chess is to bowling so comparisons will always be fraught with challenges but I can definitely still appreciate your sentiment. 

It blows my mind what Lopez can do at 41 years old in a sport so grueling and 5 consecutive golds is unpredecented so he certainly has a strong case for goat Olympian. 

I'm super biased but, if you can, entertain the following:

Phelps set something like 39 world records, which makes it easy to compare him against other goat swimmers. Unfortunately, wrestling doesn't lend itself well to similar comparisons. 

The changes in technique and race tactics he introduced are now commonplace. He visibly changed how swimming is swum. Did Lopez change how greco is wrestled? Honestly asking, because I don't know. 

Phelps brought the world record in the 200 IM from 1:58 to 1:54, which is the biggest comparative improvement in an event by a single swimmer in the modern era. He progressed the world records in 4 other events by smaller, though still significant margins. This ties into my previous point, which is that it's much easier to see how far Phelps advanced his sport, something that I don't know to be the case for Lopez. 

This also factors into how dominant Phelps was relative to his competition. Yes, swimming has a ton of events, but that means you have to compare him against other swimmers, not against athletes from other sports. Besides having the greatest versatility of any swimmer all time, he also holds some of the largest margins of victory in swimming Olympics history - - all done across multiple events and multiple Olympics. 

Phelps' dominance, versatility, and longevity are what set him far, far, faaaaar above any other history. For some people, like myself, that is enough to make him the greatest Olympic athlete in history. 

Lopez' biggest case is that he remained undefeated across 5 Olympics. That is enough for some to put him above Phelps. Despite my bias, I can appreciate this argument and be almost swayed by it, were it not for the lasting changes that Phelps left on the sport. 

 

Add a sidestroke and Phelps gets another medal…. Swimming is still swimming. I swam back in the day, so I get the differences, but too much is put on the amount of medals won in different sports. Plus, swimming is static. You are racing against a clock. There are few variables that interrupt your race, whereas wrestling you are competing against another person, and for someone like Lopez, you are wrestling against someone who is training specifically to beat you every match. We have seen the greats, Karelin, Satiev, Burroughs in 16, Susaki this year, and countless others take losses that no one expected. To win it 5 times like he did is absolutely amazing to me. 

[jackwebster]

13 minutes ago, ionel said:

who?

Seriously, did you have a bad experience in HS English?

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, jackwebster said:

Seriously, did you have a bad experience in HS English?

yes

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

Phelps winning 8/8 gold medals is a singular accomplishment that may never be done again, just like Lopez winning gold in 5 straight olympics might never be done again. 

Usain Bolt is the single most impressive athlete that I've ever seen compete in the olympics though. The reason I say that is that I don't think there is a person who has ever lived that could have been faster. And he maintained what he did over 3 olympic games. I'm not sure his 100 or 200m records will fall any time soon. Lopez is incredible, and the greatest wrestler of all time, but I don't think the best athletes in the world become wrestlers. 

With that said, Simone BIles might be the greatest olympic athlete of all time.  She is the greatest gymnast ever, which is one of the marquee sports in the olympics.  She also competed well beyond what is typical for female gymnasts. And she is a survivor of sexual abuse from a predator in USA gymnastics, and came back from that abuse to win again after struggling mentally because of it.  It is a story that we will only appreciate more with time, since I don't think people really understand the magnitude of what she has overcome and accomplished. I don't think there is a story as impactful in sports. 

I agree Bolt and Biles are both incredible and deserve to be in the conversation too. However…

“I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler.”

— Socrates

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

There is only one 50 event contested at the Olympics and the 50/100/200 freestyle triple has, to my knowledge, never been done ( at the Olympics). 

The 2 sports are as different as chess is to bowling so comparisons will always be fraught with challenges but I can definitely still appreciate your sentiment. 

It blows my mind what Lopez can do at 41 years old in a sport so grueling and 5 consecutive golds is unpredecented so he certainly has a strong case for goat Olympian. 

I'm super biased but, if you can, entertain the following:

Phelps set something like 39 world records, which makes it easy to compare him against other goat swimmers. Unfortunately, wrestling doesn't lend itself well to similar comparisons. 

The changes in technique and race tactics he introduced are now commonplace. He visibly changed how swimming is swum. Did Lopez change how greco is wrestled? Honestly asking, because I don't know. 

Phelps brought the world record in the 200 IM from 1:58 to 1:54, which is the biggest comparative improvement in an event by a single swimmer in the modern era. He progressed the world records in 4 other events by smaller, though still significant margins. This ties into my previous point, which is that it's much easier to see how far Phelps advanced his sport, something that I don't know to be the case for Lopez. 

This also factors into how dominant Phelps was relative to his competition. Yes, swimming has a ton of events, but that means you have to compare him against other swimmers, not against athletes from other sports. Besides having the greatest versatility of any swimmer all time, he also holds some of the largest margins of victory in swimming Olympics history - - all done across multiple events and multiple Olympics. 

Phelps' dominance, versatility, and longevity are what set him far, far, faaaaar above any other swimmer in history. For some people, like myself, that is enough to make him the greatest Olympic athlete in history. 

Lopez' biggest case is that he remained undefeated across 5 Olympics. That is enough for some to put him above Phelps. Despite my bias, I can appreciate this argument and be almost swayed by it, were it not for the lasting changes that Phelps left on the sport. 

 

Good context on Phelps level of dominance. I did not know he had that many world records. I do know he had some defeats in some of his races as well (except for 2008 which is probably the best single Olympic performance from any athlete of all time). 
 

Here’s some context on Lopez. During his 5 Olympic titles, he outscored his opponents 98-5… averaging only giving up one point per tournament. He won 3 Olympic titles in a row without giving up a single point! (That is really a mind blowing level of dominance to me). Plus, you have to consider that he could’ve scored a lot more points if he needed or wanted to. 

He did not compete in any competition between Tokyo and Paris and still dominated. I don’t think he even competed at all between Rio and Tokyo either, but I’m not 100% sure of that. He also won 5 world title and 3 silvers… it’s widely speculated that the silvers are only because he had some “incentive” to not win gold. 

[boconnell]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Phelps winning 8/8 gold medals is a singular accomplishment that may never be done again, just like Lopez winning gold in 5 straight olympics might never be done again. 

Usain Bolt is the single most impressive athlete that I've ever seen compete in the olympics though. The reason I say that is that I don't think there is a person who has ever lived that could have been faster. And he maintained what he did over 3 olympic games. I'm not sure his 100 or 200m records will fall any time soon. Lopez is incredible, and the greatest wrestler of all time, but I don't think the best athletes in the world become wrestlers. 

With that said, Simone BIles might be the greatest olympic athlete of all time.  She is the greatest gymnast ever, which is one of the marquee sports in the olympics.  She also competed well beyond what is typical for female gymnasts. And she is a survivor of sexual abuse from a predator in USA gymnastics, and came back from that abuse to win again after struggling mentally because of it.  It is a story that we will only appreciate more with time, since I don't think people really understand the magnitude of what she has overcome and accomplished. I don't think there is a story as impactful in sports. 

What makes Biles the greatest gymnast over the woman who had more golds, more silvers, more bronzes, and more total medals in the same number of Olympics?