Wrestleknownothing Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 8 hours ago, BAC said: This is a good example of why you need to have a year cutoff, whether its the past 20, 30 or even 50 years. Because you have all these old-timers who were great in their day, but who don't belong in a present-day conversation at all. The sport was just so different then, with dissimilar rules and techniques. There was no weight training, and the college athletics experience was so different too. Take Hodge: he wrestled a *total* of 46 bouts in his whole college career, and didn't even *start* at Oklahoma until he was 22 or 23, after a Navy stint and after he'd already wrestled in an Olympics. Can you name who his best opponent was? No, you can't. And every era had a Hodge. Stories about about how diminutive Robin Reed could pin everyone on the Olympic Team, including the heavyweight. Bill Koll, another undefeated-and-never-taken-down guy. JB will come here and wax about Gray Simons. It goes without saying that if you teleport of these old-timers when they were at their peak to the present day, they'd get eaten alive. But should that take away from the fact that, in their day, they were the best around? I don't think so, but how are you going to compare Koll to Zain, Simons to Spencer, Hodge to Starocci, Reed to Stieber? You can't. So just leave them out. If it isn't apples to apples, don't compare. I actually think this is a poor example of what you are talking about. To me, Hodge's outlier level of dominance of his era is an indicator that he could have success in the modern era too, especially if given access to modern training techniques. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadzaev2 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 On 6/5/2024 at 8:33 AM, Lleynor said: I question Gable personally. He got beat twice by another 1-time Champ in one season. No one denies his talent though. On 6/5/2024 at 8:38 AM, WrestlingFan89 said: Most of the guys he listed took losses, and they weren’t all to a national champion as an 18 year old true freshman. Including Cael losing to Paul Jenn his redshirt year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadzaev2 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 On 6/5/2024 at 9:20 AM, nhs67 said: Here is a list that is handy to look at, FWIW... https://www.jerseywrestling.com/news.php?story=Top 115 Heavyweights in NCAA History I'm a lucky dude as Jeff Blatnick once said.....I looked at the top 10 on this list, and I got to watch 8 of the 10 many times during 45 NCAA Championships, 17 World Cups, 30 Big Ten Championships and more. Lot's of great ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 26 minutes ago, Fadzaev2 said: I'm a lucky dude as Jeff Blatnick once said.....I looked at the top 10 on this list, and I got to watch 8 of the 10 many times during 45 NCAA Championships, 17 World Cups, 30 Big Ten Championships and more. Lot's of great ones. It is a badass list. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNwrestling Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 15 hours ago, Iwrite said: No way to leave Dan Hodge off any such list. Never lost in college and never taken down his entire college career. Pinned over 73 percent of foes. His junior year, Hodge won the NCAA title with four straight pins, the freestyle title with five pins and then entered the Greco-Roman nationals (his first ever try in that style) and won with four more pins. So, he won three national titles in less than a month's time with 13 straight pins. And his impact on the sport was such that to this day he remains (sadly) the only wrestler to ever appear on the cover of Sports Illustrated. 7 Id take prime Mizzou Ben Askren over Hodge 10 matches out of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNwrestling Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I actually think this is a poor example of what you are talking about. To me, Hodge's outlier level of dominance of his era is an indicator that he could have success in the modern era too, especially if given access to modern training techniques. But the scenario wasn't Danny Hodge gets to come to the modern times and train like we do now then wrestle a guy from this decade. It was prime Hodge in the 50s vs prime Akren or Starocci. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 13 minutes ago, TNwrestling said: Id take prime Mizzou Ben Askren over Hodge 10 matches out of 10. 8 minutes ago, TNwrestling said: But the scenario wasn't Danny Hodge gets to come to the modern times and train like we do now then wrestle a guy from this decade. It was prime Hodge in the 50s vs prime Akren or Starocci. The only way to really compare is with the versions we have. If comparing the versions the public got to witness, I believe it goes Starocci > Askren > Hodge. I don't think any match is particularly close, either. 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwrite Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 All the old-timers I have talked to said they felt Hodge would shut anyone down once he got on top and grabbed thieir wrists. Gary Kurdelmeier, a very powerful wrestler who was NCAA champion at 177 the year after Hodge, wrestled him twice and was pinned both times, and had black and blue marks on his arms for several days. Gary said Hodge would turn anyone who had the courage to really wrestle and not just turtle up on him. Wayne Baughman, winner of 16 national titles in all styles and a keen observer of the sport for half a century as a wrestler and a coach, said in his opinion Hodge would have beaten anyone in college stye wrestling. I guess we all have our own opinons of who was the best, and why. The best wrestler I ever saw in person, during my 55 years of writing aobut the sport, was Dan Gable as a junior. He was 31-0 with 29 pins. He also beat five NCAA champions during his college career, including three two-timers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 34 minutes ago, TNwrestling said: But the scenario wasn't Danny Hodge gets to come to the modern times and train like we do now then wrestle a guy from this decade. It was prime Hodge in the 50s vs prime Akren or Starocci. If this is the standard then you are going to end up with all recent wrestlers on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNwrestling Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 8 minutes ago, Gus said: If this is the standard then you are going to end up with all recent wrestlers on the list. The question posed was who's the best in the weight class, not whos the best in their time. Wrestling has changed. Prime Askren beats Hodge by a lot. Him bruising people's wrists won't stop Ben's scrambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwebster Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: To me, Hodge's outlier level of dominance of his era is an indicator that he could have success in the modern era too, especially if given access to modern training techniques. Word. And I don't think it would take years for him to catch up. All those 1 of 1 dudes would compete immediately. We could post vids of Gray Simons' Aldatov-style outside-step head-outside low single, Smith's god-mode defense, Fadzaev's roided out hi-c lifts vs roided out Cubans, etc all day long and they might not change many minds bc they're not in HD. But at the risk of sounding like LIMarty, they would do just fine. Edited June 6 by jackwebster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwrite Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Tough to scramble when you can't move because your wrists are locked tight in an iron grip. BTW, I am an Askren fan too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 hours ago, nhs67 said: Nah bro. OP was about best at each weight, wasn't it? Even if the thread title was not. Maybe all need to re-read the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 hour ago, TNwrestling said: But the scenario wasn't Danny Hodge gets to come to the modern times and train like we do now then wrestle a guy from this decade. It was prime Hodge in the 50s vs prime Akren or Starocci. hence the word especially Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammerlock3 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 14 hours ago, Truzzcat said: Im not the biggest MM fan but when I think about him losing to two sophomores, albeit elite sophomores at super 32 his senior year (Sealey and Ferrari). To then beating Levi to make the junior team 8 months later and then fast forward another 14-18 months being a junior world champ teching his way through the tournament and finishing his RS year in the big 10 with a 70% bonus rate at the toughest weight in the country, its scary to imagine how good hes going to be in the coming years. I really think he's one forgotten riding time point away from never losing....only caveat to that is if he took an adderall to remember such things I don't think he's be able to wrestle at all...so maybe its baked in. "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, ionel said: Maybe all need to re-read the OP. I defer you to the bold underlined in the next quote from the OP... On 6/5/2024 at 7:49 AM, Lleynor said: Many of us, including myself, consider Cael as the greatest Collegiate Wrestler. 159-0 pretty much speaks for itself. However, would you say he's the greatest 184 of all time? 197? I heard a discussion on ESPN this morning talking about the best at each position in the NFL respectively, and made me curious of the best of all time at each weight. I'm not stating the best individual season at each weight, but who was considered the best for a career at each. I guess one could look at individual seasons as well. Just curious of others opinions. Then to the very first reply afterwards. On 6/5/2024 at 8:27 AM, Truzzcat said: 125: Spencer 133: Stieber 141: Yianni 149: Zain 157: Pat Smith 165: Dake 174: Carter 184: Cael 197: Brooks 285: Gable You will see, my ~best bud(@ionel), that the OP was read appropriately and that we were responding in kind, again appropriately. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said: I really think he's one forgotten riding time point away from never losing....only caveat to that is if he took an adderall to remember such things I don't think he's be able to wrestle at all...so maybe its baked in. Who says he didn't take a Jesus Pill as well? Who's to say he didn't take it and was so hyper-focused that he actually forgot how badly he got ridden? Someone should make sure to check with him to see if Carr had put in enough quarters for that pony ride... "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 48 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I defer you to the bold underlined in the next quote from the OP... Then to the very first reply afterwards. You will see, my ~best bud(@ionel), that the OP was read appropriately and that we were responding in kind, again appropriately. But the OP was referring specifically to 184 & 197 and Cael. Sure some turdbiscits went off the rails on the very first reply and then the thread author chased after him. But this is still a thread gone off the rails and unfortunately an attempt to repair the tracks has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konquest Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 125- Abas 133-Uetake 141-Yianni 149-McIllravy 157-Nolf 165-Dake 174-Askren 184-Brooks 197-Sanderson 285-Gable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 19 minutes ago, ionel said: But the OP was referring specifically to 184 & 197 and Cael. Sure some turdbiscits went off the rails on the very first reply and then the thread author chased after him. But this is still a thread gone off the rails and unfortunately an attempt to repair the tracks has failed. The OP specifically said that he wanted to know about each weight, though. I think you take the L here. Jury of your peers dictates failure. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, nhs67 said: The OP specifically said that he wanted to know about each weight, though. I think you take the L here. Jury of your peers dictates failure. Why did he mention only Sanderson in the thread title (the topic). Let's just agree to agree that the OP was off topic on his first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 minutes ago, ionel said: Why did he mention only Sanderson in the thread title (the topic). Let's just agree to agree that the OP was off topic on his first post. I can agree to that so long as you are okay with me meandering around and talking about unrelated subjects such as nonsense. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 36 minutes ago, ionel said: Why did he mention only Sanderson in the thread title (the topic). Let's just agree to agree that the OP was off topic on his first post. 16 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I can agree to that so long as you are okay with me meandering around and talking about unrelated subjects such as nonsense. Cheese it boys, its the thread cops. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammerlock3 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, nhs67 said: Who says he didn't take a Jesus Pill as well? Who's to say he didn't take it and was so hyper-focused that he actually forgot how badly he got ridden? Someone should make sure to check with him to see if Carr had put in enough quarters for that pony ride... If that spaz MM is on adderall it must be a matter of national security cause he would probably be vibrating so fast he'd phase through walls and time travel and stuff. Edited June 6 by Hammerlock3 1 "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 hour ago, nhs67 said: I can agree to that so long as you are okay with me meandering around and talking about unrelated subjects such as nonsense. Yes, I can at times be an agreeable turdbiscuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Ramirez Walnut, California Class of 2025 Committed to Oklahoma State Projected Weight: 125, 133
Landon Robideau St. Michael-Albertville, Minnesota Class of 2025 Committed to Oklahoma State Projected Weight: 149, 157
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