Are all the Pro-Palestine, anti Israel protests helping or hurting the Democrats?

[uncle bernard]

3 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

i read #2 and stopped. this discussion is not in good faith. Good luck.

“good faith” from the guy who says the soldiers who are killing thousands of civilians has no responsibility for their deaths. 

by this reasoning there is no amount of civilians that could die that would make you change your mind because it’s hamas’ fault.

either their are rules of war or there aren’t. osama didn’t follow them. hamas doesn’t follow them. and neither does israel. the only difference is we acknowledge that osama and hamas are wrong. 

[uncle bernard]

6 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

so giving warnings to leave the area... then leveling the building...

is a war crime.

that’s not always what happens but if the civilians don’t leave then yes. i know this is hard to accept but the other side cheating doesn’t make it okay to mass kill civilians. 

if they want our tax dollars and our guns, they should follow the rules of war they agreed to. 

[uncle bernard]

6 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

fascism

under biden: i give you crackdowns on protestors.

but more importantly: FBI visiting homes of people who post on twitter... b/c reasons

NSA expanded power to spy on Americans w/o  a warrant

i could go on.

 

as for the police here.. i agree, they went over board.
I have told many former students... dont F with the police. it's just easier to do what you are asked. and you dont end up with stitches and worse. ( i could tell the whole story.. but i think you get the point. maybe not..)

you can see them telling people to back off. one person is held back...

she goes RIGHT UP to them... 

biden (and obama) certainly perpetuate this system, but i think we should also recognize the modern spy state exploded under bush and trump did nothing to roll it back either. 

[Hammerlock3]

5 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

civilians die in war. but that doesn’t mean you can indiscriminately target them.

two years ago our government (correctly) was apoplectic over the Russian invasion and killing of civilians. israel killed more civilians in one month than russia did in 2 years. to be fair to you, maybe you just don’t appreciate the scale of the civilian casualties? to act like this level of casualties was unavoidable is insane. it’s a conscious choice from Israel. 

sorry for the 2nd goodbye but couldn't resist. You used the term "indiscriminately target", which is an oxymoron and makes no sense. Why speak incoherently? Because you couldn't say they are "targeting" civilians because there is no evidence of that, you just like implying it.

[uncle bernard]

6 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

how do you feel about the whole... 

We will come and get your guns... i note you didn't say anything about that.

i don’t feel strongly about the second amendment. i’d prefer if we had much stronger regulations and licensing to make it harder for mentally ill, criminals, domestic abusers, etc…to get them.

i’m not a take away the guns guy and if we’re being real, nobody in the current scene has a position even close to that. banning assault weapons, maybe, but nobody is coming for your handgun or hunting rifle. let’s just be real about that. 

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

sorry for the 2nd goodbye but couldn't resist. You used the term "indiscriminately target", which is an oxymoron and makes no sense. Why speak incoherently? Because you couldn't say they are "targeting" civilians because there is no evidence of that, you just like implying it.

fine, they are targeting civilians. they know they are killing civilians. we know that because they tell us that! they consciously make the choice to kill them. who cares if they also say they’re killing someone else at the same time. they’re still pulling the trigger knowing that they’re going to kill an innocent child. 

look at the food workers a couple weeks. they knew those were international volunteers. they were approved and in communication with the IDF. they say they “thought” they saw a militant join the caravan. they could not confirm he was a militant or that he was even there but decided to strike the caravan (three times while victims tried to crawl to safety btw) anyway on the off chance he was. there was no militant among the dead. can you condemn that?

playing rhetorical games about my use of “indiscriminate ” doesn’t change 30k+ dead civilians.

[Le duke]

sorry for the 2nd goodbye but couldn't resist. You used the term "indiscriminately target", which is an oxymoron and makes no sense. Why speak incoherently? Because you couldn't say they are "targeting" civilians because there is no evidence of that, you just like implying it.

Actually, it’s not.

Targeting is a process. Controls placed on packages to avoid striking not-the-target is part of that. When you hit something other than an approved target, or mistake someone else for your target and strike them with weapons system (bomb, missile, or even non-kinetic effects) you are executing non-discriminate targeting.

Also:

The three separate cars from the relief organization that the IDF destroyed. That’s a perfect example. Either they knew that the 3x (properly registered with Israel/IDF) vehicles were not a legitimate military target and struck them anyways (discriminate targeting) or they didn’t do their due diligence and struck them anyways (indiscriminate targeting).


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[Hammerlock3]

3 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

Actually, it’s not.

Targeting is a process. Controls placed on packages to avoid striking not-the-target is part of that. When you hit something other than an approved target, or mistake someone else for your target and strike them with weapons system (bomb, missile, or even non-kinetic effects) you are executing non-discriminate targeting.

Also:

The three separate cars from the relief organization that the IDF destroyed. That’s a perfect example. Either they knew that the 3x (properly registered with Israel/IDF) vehicles were not a legitimate military target and struck them anyways (discriminate targeting) or they didn’t do their due diligence and struck them anyways (indiscriminate targeting).


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ok might learn something here, so good faith question, is the terminology you are using established in some sort of military community?

[Le duke]

ok might learn something here, so good faith question, is the terminology you are using established in some sort of military community?

Yes. Targeting is a process within the Joint (and each service, too) community.

See: Joint Publication 3-60.

https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Joint_Chiefs-Joint_Targeting_20130131.pdf

Joint Targeting School Student Guide:

https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Doctrine/training/jts/jts_studentguide.pdf?ver=2017-12-29-171316-067


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[Hammerlock3]

4 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Yes. Targeting is a process within the Joint (and each service, too) community.

See: Joint Publication 3-60.

https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Joint_Chiefs-Joint_Targeting_20130131.pdf

Joint Targeting School Student Guide:

https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Doctrine/training/jts/jts_studentguide.pdf?ver=2017-12-29-171316-067


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alright thank you.

@uncle bernard due to my semantic ignorance, my post about your use of the term "indiscriminate targeting" was completely wrong.

This does not mean I accept the premise that Israel is conducting the war in an unethical way in the context of an urban war against an enemy that is thrilled to blow themselves and their children up.

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

alright thank you.

@uncle bernard due to my semantic ignorance, my post about your use of the term "indiscriminate targeting" was completely wrong.

This does not mean I accept the premise that Israel is conducting the war in an unethical way in the context of an urban war against an enemy that is thrilled to blow themselves and their children up.

do you condemn the relief organization strike that killed an american citizen and several others? 

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

do you condemn the relief organization strike that killed an american citizen and several others? 

in the sense that its horrific and terrible and I wish it hadn't happened? of course.

in the sense that it was the product of Israel chalking up casualties for fun? no

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Hammerlock3 said:

in the sense that its horrific and terrible and I wish it hadn't happened? of course.

in the sense that it was the product of Israel chalking up casualties for fun? no

so close! but the correct answer was “yes”

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

so close! but the correct answer was “yes”

I'm gonna argue like you now.

why are you pro-rape?

[Husker_Du]

3 hours ago, Offthemat said:

There’s little, if any, difference between Palestinian and Hamas.  There are a few muslim countries paying lip service to the war, but other than Iran and their proxies.

Lebanon is particularly complicit. And i'd say Egypt's actions, although non-violent, have made things increasingly complex/unfortunate. 

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I'm gonna argue like you now.

why are you pro-rape?

i’m not. i’ve explicitly condemned hamas. see, when you maintain consistent values, these gotcha attempts don’t work. 

you can be anti-hamas while saying israel’s military policies are wrong. the world isn’t black or white. if hamas had carried out an identical strike, we know what you would have said about it, and you’d have been right!

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

i’m not. i’ve explicitly condemned hamas. see, when you maintain consistent values, these gotcha attempts don’t work. 

you can be anti-hamas while saying israel’s military policies are wrong. the world isn’t black or white. if hamas had carried out an identical strike, we know what you would have said about it, and you’d have been right!

no you don't support anyone in this conflict except the rapey side. you like rape.

[Dark Energy]

I didn’t read all the pages here.  But will just jump in.

Hamas, the elected government of the people of Gaza, planned for, prepared for, and then executed a planned invasion of Israel with the sole intent of killing, mutilating, and raping civilians along with taking hundreds of them (old folks, kids, babies, moms) hostage.  Doing this by hand, face to face, savagery.

Freaking definition of evil.  Pure, unadulterated evil.  Like freaking sick, disgusting evil.  Pure terrorism.  Pure targeting of ALL civilians they could find.  

Picture some group / government / organization doing this to the US.  Seriously, picture it.

Then, Hamas runs back to Gaza and then hides behind and under civilians.  Absolutely on purpose. Thus, clearly violating the ‘rules of war’ over and over again.  What did they expect Israel to do?  What reaction did they want?  

This, they wanted this.  They purposefully brought this down on the people of Gaza.  The people that elected them.  The people that did not report that this horror was about to happen (many had to know but kept it secret).  

And now, Hamas continues to fight.  Continues to bring the fury of Israel down on Gaza.  Refuses to relinquish all hostages.  

If Israel wanted to target.civilians and commit genocide, we would be talking about millions dead by now.  I feel for the true innocents.  I do.  But what Hamas did rightly unlocked pure fury and Hamas hiding behind the innocents is the true guilty party here.

‘

 

 

 

[Dark Energy]

How anyone … seriously .. anyone …. can support Hamas after what they did, is sickening.  

I’m ok with supporting the historical claims that Palestinians have made, but supporting Hamas and their actions is disgusting, through and through.  

And there were many after Oct 7 that did just that.  Many with their current chants and protests aren’t simply imploring Israel to protect innocents, they are trumpeting Hamas’ calls … all while Hamas still holds hostages.  F’ing sick.

[Offthemat]

54 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Lebanon is particularly complicit. And i'd say Egypt's actions, although non-violent, have made things increasingly complex/unfortunate. 

I include Lebanon (hezbala) as Iran proxies.  Egypt doesn’t want the trouble that follows the Palestinians wherever they go.  Syria and Jordan cooperated in Israel’s hit on Iran.  Saudi Arabia is still wanting to normalize relations with Israel.  Biden policies are absolutely stunning. 

[Le duke]

I include Lebanon (hezbala) as Iran proxies.  Egypt doesn’t want the trouble that follows the Palestinians wherever they go.  Syria and Jordan cooperated in Israel’s hit on Iran.  Saudi Arabia is still wanting to normalize relations with Israel.  Biden policies are absolutely stunning. 

Lebanon has been a US ally for a long time. Iranian proxies are able to infiltrate and stage military actions from their territory, but that does not mean the Lebanese government hosts them.

They literally send officers to US military schools. I attended one with about a dozen of them. Ironically, a roughly equal mix of Christian, Jewish and Muslim guys who all smoked cigarettes and drank with each other.


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[Le duke]

Lebanon is particularly complicit. And i'd say Egypt's actions, although non-violent, have made things increasingly complex/unfortunate. 

There are certain regions of Lebanon outside government control. Just like areas of Russia where the government is more or less nonexistent. Or Mexico. Or Colombia. Or Brazil.

Now, could you say that this apathy is the root of this? Sure. They only care about Hezbollah when it becomes a problem.


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[uncle bernard]

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

How anyone … seriously .. anyone …. can support Hamas after what they did, is sickening.  

I’m ok with supporting the historical claims that Palestinians have made, but supporting Hamas and their actions is disgusting, through and through.  

And there were many after Oct 7 that did just that.  Many with their current chants and protests aren’t simply imploring Israel to protect innocents, they are trumpeting Hamas’ calls … all while Hamas still holds hostages.  F’ing sick.

who on here is supporting hamas?

[uncle bernard]

some levity lol

 

[Offthemat]

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

Lebanon has been a US ally for a long time. Iranian proxies are able to infiltrate and stage military actions from their territory, but that does not mean the Lebanese government hosts them.

They literally send officers to US military schools. I attended one with about a dozen of them. Ironically, a roughly equal mix of Christian, Jewish and Muslim guys who all smoked cigarettes and drank with each other.


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There are elements of irrelevance here.  Hezbollah has a significant presence there, and are afforded much latitude as long as they don’t attract too much of Israel’s ire.  Then they lose their popularity and privilege, but don’t really suffer much consequence over that brought by Israelis.   There is also some evidence that intelligence has been passed out of Lebanon that aided in attacks on U.S. military installations.  That military guys can relax and socialize is nothing new, even if they’re enemies.  There’s probably nothing that’ll take the fight out of you like the military.