Penn State fans booing Jordan Burroughs

[Hammerlock3]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

He wasn't there Saturday night, or at least not in the same seats.

thats why the guy was so punchable, he probably ran across the arena to make an ass of himself.

[swoopdown]

I enjoyed Buroughs and Messenbrink trolling each other through the match.  (Jordan shoud market a line of collapsing wrestling socks, MM a herky jerky wind up wrestler toy who attempts to shake hands and slap the back of anyone within reach).  The headsmash at the end was arguably a bit much (could have resulted in a DQ on the international stage, however no ref who values his health would DQ Burroughs in a USA Olympic team trial) but I classify it as an isolated get-off-my-lawn old guy vs annoying-young-pup incident and a nothing burger.  As far as the booing (also a nothing burger), Jordan pretty much said nothing when he moved past my section but Manning was yelling at the crowd (no idea what he was saying or responding to) and the crowd was responding to Manning more than Jordan by that point.   Being an evil  NLWC fan, I may have booed Manning (and Jordan too, the headsmash was deserving) but believe I was fully invested in laughing and enjoying the spectacle with the fans sitting near me and don't remember doing so.  

[1032004]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:14 AM, Antitroll2828 said:

I’ve asking for weeks but other then being good at wrestling what makes Burroughs “a great ambassador” for the sport ? 

Showed that you don’t have to be a superstar in high school and can start from even having no success at all (lost first round of districts as a freshman) to be the best in the world

Encouraged blacks and others who really had no knowledge of what wrestling was to wrestle, including working with beat the streets

Demonstrated the ability to set a public goal and achieve it (all I see is gold), and marketing himself in the process

As a result, developed partnerships with brands like Polo Ralph Lauren that most people would never expect to sponsor a wrestler

Showed that wrestling (not just coaching) can actually lead to a comfortable life well into your 30’s

Developed an international fanbase including in countries like Iran that hate the US and his podium photo with his arm around the Iranian is probably one of the more iconic wrestling photos 

Did a great job commentating the last Olympics with John Smith when many may have expected him to stay home and sulk since he wasn’t there competing

Was always well spoken in interviews and often talking about the values that wrestling taught him

Probably other stuff I’m forgetting

[VakAttack]

Ben Askren on FRL today essentially said Mesenbrink earned that smack from Burroughs.  If the guy's own high school coach can say it, I promise you some of you can say it, too.

[PortaJohn]

22 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Ben Askren on FRL today essentially said Mesenbrink earned that smack from Burroughs.  If the guy's own high school coach can say it, I promise you some of you can say it, too.

I thought that was the general consensus.  Mitchell crossed the line and Burroughs responded accordingly.  It's us fans that turn it into some ethical moral dilemma.  The match was not something out of the ordinary but because our forum is a tribal bunch we choose sides.  A) Lots of wrestlers push "the line" of what's considered dirty B) Jordan Burroughs was also infamous for being one of those guys C) So are a lot of other elite guys D) We need something to talk about so lets make it bigger than it probably is to the guys who are actually competing 

[PortaJohn]

On 4/21/2024 at 12:43 PM, VakAttack said:

Fans booing a heated opponent during the match, even if he is one of the greatest champions in our country's history = totally fine.  Fans booing a heated opponent after the match, even if he's one of the greatest champions in our country's history and he may have just wrestled his last match = hmmm, kinda lame but maybe you can let it slide. 

I actually have a problem with this only because I wish we as fans could leave our tribal college fandom hatred at the door when it comes to our national freestyle team.  It's like jesus fellas, we're supposed to all be on the same team for this one

Edited April 22 by PortaJohn

[Eagle26]

11 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I actually have a problem with this only because I wish we as fans could leave our tribal college fandom hatred at the door when it comes to our national freestyle team.  It's like jesus fellas, we're supposed to all be on the same team for this one

This 100%

[Winners Circle]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:07 AM, wrestle87 said:

I’m gonna disagree with this.  It’s not a standard of behavior that has historically been accepted in wrestling, and I have no interest in making it an accepted behavior in any way.

”It’s Ok to be a tone deaf d-bag” is not in any way what the sport is about.

Maybe "standard behavior" is what's holding our sport back? Go to any major sporting event (NFL, NBA, MLB, CFB, CBB) the home fans smack talk the opposing team. 

[wrestle87]

9 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Maybe "standard behavior" is what's holding our sport back? Go to any major sporting event (NFL, NBA, MLB, CFB, CBB) the home fans smack talk the opposing team. 

Leaning into trashy for the sake of numbers doesn’t help a sport, it makes money for the organizers, that is not the same thing.  Any sport that had leaned into trashy instead of simply aiming to develop quality ultimately pays the price.

All of the sports you mentioned are now struggling under the weight of their own “trashy” that they leaned into.  Going that road is a one-way ticket, the media around the sport get addicted to trash instead of actually discussing and supporting the sport, and it hollows the entire artifice out top to bottom.

Basketball was beloved 20 years ago, since then it has succeeded in becoming bloated, tired, and legitimately selling its soul at the feet of the almighty RMB. 

MLB was on par with the NFL and NBA, it is now much closer to the NHL, and CFB/CBB are dominated by trashy media who talk nonsense instead of actually discussing the sport.  That will catch up with them big time.  

The NFL has taken its first major step in the trash direction by making pop-singers a part of every broadcast, and they are really starting to lean into the trash for cash marketing model too.

The world as a whole is tiring of this…and the trouble with it becomes that trash for cash marketing is a different media orientation and skillset that completely supplants real analysis.  It’s like eating nothing but oreos for a week.  The first hour may be great, but it’s basically hell by day two.

Wrestling has grown by leaps and bounds in the past 15 years.  It is built into our bones to believe in a boogeyman that is coming for us, but there are now paid positions for good wrestlers right out of high school, wrestling is a legit career path in and of itself for both genders, more than it ever has been.

Now, if you were to tell Greco to lean into that strategy for the sake of growth…I would have to say I agree with you, but the sport as a whole doesn’t need it.

Edited April 22 by wrestle87

[JeanGuy]

I have never booed anybody at any sporting event, not even Angel Hernandez or Angel Rivera. It doesn't make me feel any better so I don't.

These social media fights get fans riled up. Cormier got JB to go a little heel at NCAA's which led to back and forth. You can argue about who the heel was but at the Bryce Jordan Center it was always going to be JB.

I really don't see it as a big deal either way. I can't control how people act and react.

[lu_alum]

I thought that was the general consensus.  Mitchell crossed the line and Burroughs responded accordingly. 

Askren mentioned on FRL today that this is character flaw for MM. MM is a known instigator who likes to pick fights. Askren said the he has to MM in his place from time to time as a reset.

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1032004]

43 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I thought that was the general consensus.  Mitchell crossed the line and Burroughs responded accordingly. 

Oh did the crowd boo Mesenbrink too?

[wrestle87]

1 minute ago, lu_alum said:

Askren mentioned on FRL today that this is character flaw for MM. MM is a known instigator who likes to pick fights. Askren said the he has to MM in his place from time to time as a reset.

I hear this, but also MM was doing nothing compared to the stuff JB has handled over the course of his career.  Russians, Iranians, Dake, et al have thrown WAY worse at him and he has handled it way better.  But then, as we saw, he had no offense the next round, and I think that internal vulnerability got the best of him.

[wrestle87]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Oh did the crowd boo Mesenbrink too?

No, because Mesenbrink wasn’t a grown ass man who give himself internal dispensation to unload a free two handed wound up shot at the back of the head of a 20 year old he was stomping.

”He was going to hurt him!”

Well…he could have just sprawled.

[VakAttack]

 

41 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I thought that was the general consensus.  Mitchell crossed the line and Burroughs responded accordingly.  It's us fans that turn it into some ethical moral dilemma.  The match was not something out of the ordinary but because our forum is a tribal bunch we choose sides.  A) Lots of wrestlers push "the line" of what's considered dirty B) Jordan Burroughs was also infamous for being one of those guys C) So are a lot of other elite guys D) We need something to talk about so lets make it bigger than it probably is to the guys who are actually competing 

I did not see it as the general consensus.  I do agree that Jordan has his own history of line-pushing.

36 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I actually have a problem with this only because I wish we as fans could leave our tribal college fandom hatred at the door when it comes to our national freestyle team.  It's like jesus fellas, we're supposed to all be on the same team for this one

Meh, we want fans to be passionate.  People just sitting around clapping for winners is a boring environment (to me).  Sports hate is one of the best parts of the experience, IMO.  I don't think the idiot who screamed at Burroughs should be restrained from saying anything, but I do think he can be called out.  He has a right to an opinion and I have a right to have an opinion about how he expresses his opinion.  I understand what you're saying, and maybe in a perfect world that would be how we consumed sports, but it's not (again, for me.)

[Winners Circle]

15 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Leaning into trashy for the sake of numbers doesn’t help a sport, it makes money for the organizers, that is not the same thing.  Any sport that had leaned into trashy instead of simply aiming to develop quality ultimately pays the price.

All of the sports you mentioned are now struggling under the weight of their own “trashy” that they leaned into.  Going that road is a one-way ticket, the media around the sport get addicted to trash instead of actually discussing and supporting the sport, and it hollows the entire artifice out top to bottom.

Basketball was beloved 20 years ago, since then it has succeeded in becoming bloated, tired, and legitimately selling its soul at the feet of the almighty RMB. 

MLB was on par with the NFL and NBA, it is now much closer to the NHL, and CFB/CBB are dominated by trashy media who talk nonsense instead of actually discussing the sport.  That will catch up with them big time.  

The NFL has taken its first major step in the trash direction by making pop-singers a part of every broadcast, and they are really starting to lean into the trash for cash marketing model too.

The world as a whole is tiring of this…and the trouble with it becomes that trash for cash marketing is a different media orientation and skillset that completely supplants real analysis.  It’s like eating nothing but oreos for a week.  The first hour may be great, but it’s basically hell by day two.

Wrestling has grown by leaps and bounds in the past 15 years.  It is built into our bones to believe in a boogeyman that is coming for us, but there are now paid positions for good wrestlers right out of high school, wrestling is a legit career path in and of itself for both genders, more than it ever has been.

Now, if you were to tell Greco to lean into that strategy for the sake of growth…I would have to say I agree with you, but the sport as a whole doesn’t need it.

• What price are the sports I listed paying? Seems as though each of them brings in much more revenue than wrestling (college or international).
• Struggling by what metric? 
• CFB is thriving now more than ever. And I don't think that's debatable. Same with CBB. Why did people tune into WCBB Elite 8/Final 4? I'll give you a hint, it's because the history/beef between LSU (Reese)/Iowa (Clark). People did not rant and rave about WCBB until there was a storyline because of the TRASH TALK history.
• You're delusional if you think the biggest revenue sports organization needs Taylor Swift.
• So the MOST successful revenue sports in this country are all drowning and struggling because of the trash talk?

[wrestle87]

34 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

• What price are the sports I listed paying? Seems as though each of them brings in much more revenue than wrestling (college or international).
• Struggling by what metric? 
• CFB is thriving now more than ever. And I don't think that's debatable. Same with CBB. Why did people tune into WCBB Elite 8/Final 4? I'll give you a hint, it's because the history/beef between LSU (Reese)/Iowa (Clark). People did not rant and rave about WCBB until there was a storyline because of the TRASH TALK history.
• You're delusional if you think the biggest revenue sports organization needs Taylor Swift.
• So the MOST successful revenue sports in this country are all drowning and struggling because of the trash talk?

So, firstly if you are going to engage in an apples to oranges comparison, that’s never going to work.  Leave everything at the door if that’s the game you want to play, bc that’s a big fat bait and switch.

People didn’t give a hootin crap about LSU vs Iowa, they watched because Clark was setting records all time sport records, and was surpassing the records set by the best mens players.  WBB will unfortunately most likely be back to playing on the Ocho next year.  I’d love to be wrong, but the biggest draw will be gone.

I think the best analogy is to compare the trash boosting effect to putting a good high school athlete on a constant heavy tren cycle.  They will murder senior year and find their way onto a college roster, but they start snapping tendons, will spend half their college career in a wheelchair, and will be an orthopedic mess by 30.

The NFL started this process with Brady, constantly needing a QB to have the media fellate, and they are working desperately to have Mahomes step into those shoes.  They are on that ride now, pushing cult of personality instead of organic fan base growth, and they will struggle to get off that merry-go-round.

[Dogbone]

55 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

I hear this, but also MM was doing nothing compared to the stuff JB has handled over the course of his career.  Russians, Iranians, Dake, et al have thrown WAY worse at him and he has handled it way better.  But then, as we saw, he had no offense the next round, and I think that internal vulnerability got the best of him.

This is a reach.  Tsargush would hold/pull the singlet and use a few dirty tricks but I can't think of anything the other Russian have done.  Sadly, JB is treated better in Iran than State College.   I don't recall Dake crossing any lines (maybe verbally jabbing?). 

And lets be real, he didn't lose control, he knew he was up 7-0 and could take the penalty point so he retaliated against someone crossing the line.    If it would of been a close match, he probably doesn't react the same way. 

[Winners Circle]

11 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

So, firstly if you are going to engage in an apples to oranges comparison, that’s never going to work.  Leave everything at the door if that’s the game you want to play, bc that’s a big fat bait and switch.

People didn’t give a hootin crap about LSU vs Iowa, they watched because Clark was setting records all time sport records, and was surpassing the records set by the best mens players.  WBB will unfortunately most likely be back to playing on the Ocho next year.  I’d love to be wrong, but the biggest draw will be gone.

I think the best analogy is to compare the trash boosting effect to putting a good high school athlete on a constant heavy tren cycle.  They will murder senior year and find their way onto a college roster, but they start snapping tendons, will spend half their college career in a wheelchair, and will be an orthopedic mess by 30.

The NFL started this process with Brady, constantly needing a QB to have the media fellate, and they are working desperately to have Mahomes step into those shoes.  They are on that ride now, pushing cult of personality instead of organic fan base growth, and they will struggle to get off that merry-go-round.

• You're the one that said those other sports were struggling. I argued the other side.
• I don't know one person who watched a WCBB regular season game this year. Elite 8 and Final Four only. And Clark was lighting it up just as much in the regular season.
• The biggest draw was a smack talker. See her vs Louisville in 2023 tournament to Van Lith ("You're down by 30 points, shut up.")
• Lol. I got a kick out of the tren analogy.
• Again, not sure how you can look at the biggest revenue sports organization in the world and say they're doing it wrong. Hot take there.

[alliseeisgold]

Messenbrink was driving into jbs ankles after whistle was blown and off matt..... dirty

 Wrestling needs to implement NFL style officiating for after whistle is blown 

Interesting storroci said he would spit in jbs face if he did that.....talk about classless. And then went on to say messenbrink isn't a tough guy ....because if he was tough jb wouldn't of even attempted it and he would never against real tough guys like him and brooks. .....and also maybe nickall even....because he is kind tough but not as tough as storroci and brooks 

Then said jb walks around like he's king Kong 

[wrestle87]

26 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

This is a reach.  Tsargush would hold/pull the singlet and use a few dirty tricks but I can't think of anything the other Russian have done.  Sadly, JB is treated better in Iran than State College.   I don't recall Dake crossing any lines (maybe verbally jabbing?). 

And lets be real, he didn't lose control, he knew he was up 7-0 and could take the penalty point so he retaliated against someone crossing the line.    If it would of been a close match, he probably doesn't react the same way. 

All fair points.  And, ultimately the heart of all this is how disappointing the crowd behavior was in Penn State.  That warrants the most attention….in an entirely negative way.  A trashy crowd only hurts events.  JB didn’t deserve to be treated the way he was.

[wrestle87]

23 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

• You're the one that said those other sports were struggling. I argued the other side.
• I don't know one person who watched a WCBB regular season game this year. Elite 8 and Final Four only. And Clark was lighting it up just as much in the regular season.
• The biggest draw was a smack talker. See her vs Louisville in 2023 tournament to Van Lith ("You're down by 30 points, shut up.")
• Lol. I got a kick out of the tren analogy.
• Again, not sure how you can look at the biggest revenue sports organization in the world and say they're doing it wrong. Hot take there.

Doing it wrong, yeah obviously not for most of them, but the NBA is having trouble, and the MLB is just dead in the water.  Supporting a positive engaged fanbase is really important, one of the real dangers in supporting what we saw from the Penn State crowd this weekend is it alienates the positive supportive crowd who grow the sport long term. 

I forget who on here referenced it, but the Iowa crowd, while enthusiastic, knows and respects the sport and any competitor who brings it.  I felt like I was listening to the Okie State crowd rooting for NLWC athletes this weekend.  Just biased nonsense at high persistent volume.  That’s going to be a stain the program will have a very hard time wiping away.

[dragit]

1 hour ago, JeanGuy said:

I have never booed anybody at any sporting event, not even Angel Hernandez or Angel Rivera. It doesn't make me feel any better so I don't.

You wouldn't even boo this?  

Sorry couldn't help myself.

[Winners Circle]

11 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Doing it wrong, yeah obviously not for most of them, but the NBA is having trouble, and the MLB is just dead in the water.  Supporting a positive engaged fanbase is really important, one of the real dangers in supporting what we saw from the Penn State crowd this weekend is it alienates the positive supportive crowd who grow the sport long term. 

I forget who on here referenced it, but the Iowa crowd, while enthusiastic, knows and respects the sport and any competitor who brings it.  I felt like I was listening to the Okie State crowd rooting for NLWC athletes this weekend.  Just biased nonsense at high persistent volume.  That’s going to be a stain the program will have a very hard time wiping away.

• I would argue that the NBA is more dead now than it was in the 90's when trash talk was more prevalent. Those guys back then hated each other. Now they're all buddy/buddy.
• Like when Mark Hall said someone yelled racial slurs to him before and after he wrestled Kemerer in CHA?
• Biased nonsense at high persistent volume like when Hawkeye fans yell for stalling on the other guy when their guy constantly pushes but doesn't actually try to score points?

Edited April 22 by Winners Circle

[wrestle87]

7 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Like when Mark Hall said someone yelled racial slurs to him before and after he wrestled Kemerer in CHA?

Oof, I didn’t know about that.  That’s so disappointing.

Discussion of anything else feels instantaneously trivial in the face of that.