Penn State Scoring record question?

[fishbane]

This is what I come up with 1997 Iowa scored two ways

When rescoring under 2024 rules I did not attempt to adjust the bout scoring for the 3pt TD or the new NF rules.  Adjustments were made removing bye points, placement points, and to change 1 pt match terminations (TF w/o NF) to 1.5 point TF.

This is what I come up with PSU

 

For 1997 team scoring I added bye points, adjusted placement points to the 1997 schedule, and changed any TF that did not feature NF from a 1.5 point TF to a 1 point MT.  This effected both TFs bye Levi Haines, 1 for Mesenbrink, 2 for Brooks, and 1 for Kerkvliet.  It should be noted that in 2024 the qualifiers are distributed equally allowing for more weights with round of 64 byes than in 1997.  In 1997 only 5 weights had byes.  Assuming the same 5 weights (with 7 lbs allowance) had the byes, then PSU would have 4.5 bye points instead of 9 making the total 171 or 1 more than Iowa.

For the 1997 Team/Bout Scoring I attempted to rescore the 2024 bouts assigning 2 points for each TD and NF points as in 1997.  I only did this for bouts where PSU scored bonus points as doing this could change W/L outcomes or make a match tied.  Doing this also makes any bout with a 15 point difference into less than a 15 point difference unless those points were scored w/o any NF3, NF4, or TD3.  That didn't happen, but there were only 2 TF that were not downgraded to a MT.  These were scored by Nagao and Truax.  Nagao's match ended with a 15 point differential in the second period and Truax's with 1:50 left in the 3rd.  I gave them both benefit of the doubt and said they would have got the tech anyway and kept them at 1.5 team points.  Kasak had two MDs downgraded to Dec, Haines had 1, Mesenbrink had 2, and Kerkvliet also had 2.   After these adjustments PSU has 168.5 team points, but that is with equally distributed byes.  With a 1997 by distribution they would only have 4.5 bye points making the total 164.

I don't know if the bonus points with bout rescoring is that meaningful.  Take for example the Kasak Roberts consolation match.  This match was wrestled with TD3, NF3, and NF4.  The final score was 14-5 Kasak.  Kasak scored 1 TD3, 1 NF3, and 1NF 4, whilst Roberts scored 1 TD3.  Under 1997 rules that would make the final 11-4 making it a dec, but is that really what would have happened?  Maybe Kasak pushes to score more to get the MD or maybe he fights hard to not give up that TD with 0:24 left in the match?

[fishbane]

I also attempted to rescore individual bouts from 1997 NCAAs applying the current NF3, NF4, and TD3 criteria to Iowa's matches.  I used the highlights and match scores from this website to do it - https://ncaa-wrestling.uni.edu/brackets/.  This is possibly a little conservative as full bout scoring was not available.

I get 176 after this adjustment.  I think this is conservative, but it's possible that it would be less.  In any event Iowa only needed 1 team point for their adjusted team points to pass PSU's actual 2024 team point total.  That's 1 dec being recored to a MD and that is definitely the case.  Ironside's final has video available and he won 10-4 scoring 4 TDs and a reversal.  That would be a MD 14-4 rescored.

[MidniteToka]

On 4/9/2024 at 11:22 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

The answer to the question, who scored more, is the same as the answer to the question, what kind of underwear does @BobDole wear, boxers or briefs? Depends.

 

Low blow.  -1  point.
Dang funny though. 

Maybe Bob goes commando?

Even more important than the team scoring record, I think we should take a closer look at the results of the 1996 Presidential election.

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, fishbane said:

Oh interesting.  I guess the McIlravy matches must be MT instead of TF.  I had thought possibly a team point had been deducted as that wouldn't show up in the brackets, but given what was in the other thread the McIlravy explanation is likely it.  This would update my 1997 table to look like this

And 2024 scoring to look like this

After changing McIlravy's TF to MT, I'm getting 170 for 1997 Iowa using 1997 scoring, but I get 172 for 1997 Iowa using 2024 scoring.  I think where we are different is the Joe Williams vs Tivon Able MT.  I think you forgot to make it a TF in 2024 scoring.  I looked at the UNI website you references and that also has that as a 22-7 7:00 match termination.  

You are right. I missed adding Williams extra half point. Good catch. 172 is the new 170. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I also attempted to rescore individual bouts from 1997 NCAAs applying the current NF3, NF4, and TD3 criteria to Iowa's matches.  I used the highlights and match scores from this website to do it - https://ncaa-wrestling.uni.edu/brackets/.  This is possibly a little conservative as full bout scoring was not available.

I get 176 after this adjustment.  I think this is conservative, but it's possible that it would be less.  In any event Iowa only needed 1 team point for their adjusted team points to pass PSU's actual 2024 team point total.  That's 1 dec being recored to a MD and that is definitely the case.  Ironside's final has video available and he won 10-4 scoring 4 TDs and a reversal.  That would be a MD 14-4 rescored.

You would also need to know the scores prior to any pinfalls to determine if they would have ended by TF prior to the PF.

[scourge165]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:22 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

You have a couple of errors. Advancement points were awarded in 1997 at the same level as today, 1 for the championship round and 0.5 for the consolation round. The only difference was that in 1997 it was treated as a 64 man bracket when there were more than 32 wrestlers. That meant there was an extra advancement point on the championship side and an extra 0.5 advancement points on the consolation side for just the brackets with >32. 

My bad. I made a couple of mistakes. 

1-I was confusing the NFHS scoring system.

2-I still got that wrong. They used to give 2 advancement points, now it's 1. So the scoring difference would be the same...if not for that minor detail that It's for HS Wrestling!

[WildTurk]

It would have been cool if 1997 Iowa had NIL and portal transfers. 180+ point team right there!

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You would also need to know the scores prior to any pinfalls to determine if they would have ended by TF prior to the PF.

That's a good point.  Iowa had 9 pinfalls at NCAAs in 1997.  

Five of them were first period pinfalls in times of 0:31, 0:37, 0:59, 1:05 and 2:35.  I think there is a very slim chance of the PFs in 1:05 or less being stopped early for a TF.  The 2:35 PF was Joe Williams's first round match.  There isn't much in the way of a description on the UNI website for this bout.  I'll say it doesn't get stopped early for a TF

There were two 2nd period PF - Uker PF Dunklin 4:20 and Ironside PF Wells 4:03.  There isn't much of a description for the Uker match.  The description for Ironside's match said Ironside got 6TDs.  I'll say that ends early with a TF and count Uker that way too just to be conservative

Finally there were two third period PFs in times of 5:45 and 5:15.  The 5:45 PF match was Lee Fullhart over Cook in the first round.  The UNI description says it was tied entering the 3rd period.  I'm going to say this wouldn't turn into a TF.  It seems unlikely with NF3, NF4 and TD3 Fulhart opens up a 15 point lead in 0:45.  The last PF was a Wes Hand match for which there isn't much description.   I'll say that one ends early just to be conservative though Hand wasn't putting up tons of points in his other matches in the tournament.

I think 0.5 points almost definitely would be lost due to this (Ironside) and deducting 1.5 points (Ironside, Uker, and Hand) would be a conservative estimate. 

[11986]

8 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Walked out of an athletes weight cutting session a day or two before Big 10 and did not return.  Seems like it could have really let the team down, but they reacted by scoring a ton of points and they all seem to still have a pretty high opinion of Egeland.  After "The Dual" was released this year, a lot of people started attacking Egeland online and Royce Alger really came to his defense.

Slightly off topic but got me thinking, ‘86 started a bad run for Iowa at 118, particularly by their standards. No qualifier in ‘86, Regan seeded 5 but DNP in ‘87, then 3 years of Steve Martin = DNP in ‘88, 7th in ‘89, and DNP IN ‘90. 5 years and best to show is a 7th place. Abysmal during Gable era. Zap got it back on track the next 3. 

[fishbane]

13 minutes ago, 11986 said:

Slightly off topic but got me thinking, ‘86 started a bad run for Iowa at 118, particularly by their standards. No qualifier in ‘86, Regan seeded 5 but DNP in ‘87, then 3 years of Steve Martin = DNP in ‘88, 7th in ‘89, and DNP IN ‘90. 5 years and best to show is a 7th place. Abysmal during Gable era. Zap got it back on track the next 3. 

I think 1983 Iowa and 1986 Iowa are right there with 1997 Iowa and 2024 PSU.  Under the old placement point allocation 1986 Iowa had the most placement points of the 4 teams.  Under the current placement point allocation 1983 Iowa had the most placement points.  1986 Iowa was very top heavy in that they only qualified 8, but had 6 finalists, 1-4th and 1-5th.  The change to placement point allocation increased placement points for positions 3 and lower, so they didn't benefit as much.  1983 had 10 qualifiers and is the only team out of the 4 with 9AAs.  

[fishbane]

 

[NM1965]

12 hours ago, 11986 said:

 

Matt Egeland. Placed 2nd at 118 in ‘85 from the 8 seed.  Struggled the next year with the weight cut. 

Jesus. That was back from my day, lol. Thanks! 

[Eagle26]

13 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Walked out of an athletes weight cutting session a day or two before Big 10 and did not return.  Seems like it could have really let the team down, but they reacted by scoring a ton of points and they all seem to still have a pretty high opinion of Egeland.  After "The Dual" was released this year, a lot of people started attacking Egeland online and Royce Alger really came to his defense.

I can imagine back then he was probably literally killing himself to make 118. I know the knee jerk reaction would be to look down on him, but it’s probably a good thing he didn’t go through with it. 

[OMW]

21 hours ago, WildTurk said:

It would have been cool if 1997 Iowa had NIL and portal transfers. 180+ point team right there!

But the current Iowa program does have NIL and portal transfers. Just not the championships a lot of hawk fans think they are predordained.

 

[AgaveMaria]

"pinfalls" are for girly men.

Rea men pin their opponents and win by fall.

[WildTurk]

7 hours ago, OMW said:

But the current Iowa program does have NIL and portal transfers. Just not the championships a lot of hawk fans think they are predordained.

 

1997 Iowa would have been a juggernaut with NIL and the portal