Bigbrog Posted March 27 Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Totally get it. It just bothers me that the 'personal responsibility' people don't want to see nuance in situations or understand that right and wrong can look pretty grey to someone from a different perspective. Not that they are wrong necessarily but to not lock themselves into a right/wrong way of thinking. I feel its a way of saying 'my moral code' without saying it. But i could be wrong. Holy crap...what nuance are you even suggesting?? I think you play conversations out in your head and then babble them on here. You asking obscure/stupid/impossible questions to answer is not debating nuance, nor is it a way to prove people on here only think black and white. Since you are a questions guy I'll ask you a couple, what is gray about personal responsibility?? What is gray about blaming versus accountability? 1
jross Posted March 27 Author Posted March 27 14 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Can 'personal responsibility' be twisted to 'whatever I think is right at the time'? ...Not if humanity will survive. The basic needs required for human survival include: Food Water Shelter Air Sleep Take care of one self or die. Take care of one's direct dependents or there will be no future you. Take care of village. Consider other villages. ...Yes for the softer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
WrestlingRasta Posted March 27 Posted March 27 34 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Totally get it. It just bothers me that the 'personal responsibility' people don't want to see nuance in situations or understand that right and wrong can look pretty grey to someone from a different perspective. Not that they are wrong necessarily but to not lock themselves into a right/wrong way of thinking. I feel its a way of saying 'my moral code' without saying it. But i could be wrong. There’s not a whole lot of shade in between right and wrong. You’re making my point for me. One persons perspective may be….its okay for me to walk in to my neighbors house without knocking and see how they are, my last neighbor didn’t care. That perspective does not make it okay. 1
Paul158 Posted March 27 Posted March 27 20 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: There’s not a whole lot of shade in between right and wrong. You’re making my point for me. One persons perspective may be….its okay for me to walk in to my neighbors house without knocking and see how they are, my last neighbor didn’t care. That perspective does not make it okay. Maybe a little common sense could be applied.
mspart Posted March 27 Posted March 27 I will add this. Without a sense that there is a God and that we are accountable to him, these questions cannot be truly answered. When we lose our mooring from what is eternal truth, then there is all sorts of rationalizations that occur that take us away from base truths. Personal Accountability starts with how that applies to our relationship with God. If there is a God, then it seems pretty clear what our personal accountability is. You do what is right and there is no question of what is right and what is wrong. If there is no God or we choose not to believe in God, then it seems pretty clear that there is no personal accountability in the same sense. It is whatever you think is right or wrong and how you keep yourself accountable to that. But with no serious spiritual mooring, this can be anything an individual wants it to be. And therein is the rationalization of human behavior. That's my opinion. mspart 1
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Bigbrog said: Holy crap...what nuance are you even suggesting?? I think you play conversations out in your head and then babble them on here. You asking obscure/stupid/impossible questions to answer is not debating nuance, nor is it a way to prove people on here only think black and white. Since you are a questions guy I'll ask you a couple, what is gray about personal responsibility?? What is gray about blaming versus accountability? What is grey, just about everything. The 'personal responsibility/accountability' will differ from situation to situation. All I'm saying is that using the term 'personal responsibility/accountability' is nice and is probably comforting but it shuts down any nuanced conversation. Because they will be situation specific. Grey about blaming vs accountability, in my experience is based on the perceived moral superiority and power/influence of one side vs another. They both could be considered in the right but through objective lenses there could be facts that are indisputable. Rather than talking in generalities, we could have a conversation about a topic, specifically, rather than an obscure term like 'personal accountability' that cannot be defined.
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 hour ago, jross said: ...Not if humanity will survive. The basic needs required for human survival include: Food Water Shelter Air Sleep Take care of one self or die. Take care of one's direct dependents or there will be no future you. Take care of village. Consider other villages. ...Yes for the softer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Not sure if you answered the question or rathe you contradicted yourself, perhaps unknowingly. Sounds like you're saying, do whatever I can do to take care of me, then my family, then others around me. If I'm getting that wrong please correct me. Did you mean to imply that 'personal accountability' must be carried out in an ethical/moral/judicial way? So as most good and least harm are visited upon society as a residue of your actions? Because, 'take care of me and my family' could skew in some pretty ugly ways if everyone is left to interpret that for themselves.
red viking Posted March 27 Posted March 27 "Personal accountability" is really just code for "I don't want to provide any help to people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc." 1 3 2
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 hour ago, WrestlingRasta said: There’s not a whole lot of shade in between right and wrong. You’re making my point for me. One persons perspective may be….its okay for me to walk in to my neighbors house without knocking and see how they are, my last neighbor didn’t care. That perspective does not make it okay. When you start saying 'right and wrong' it seems as if there is moral code that is implied. Because there are always shades of grey with right things that can make them wrong and vise versa. The trope of robbers blaming cops for ending up in jail is just such an example. They feel they are doing good but society says they need to be removed from society for a time. Robin Hood, was celebrated for stealing from people thought to be worth stealing from. Dillinger. That's why I like using terms like good or harm. Right or wrong locks you into a position which makes it harder to see the nuance in the situation or your bias to it.
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, red viking said: "Personal accountability" is really just code for "I don't want to provide any help to people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc." I'm sure some people use it for that exact reason. Add: migrants, trans people, Democrats, any person with a faith other than mine
jross Posted March 27 Author Posted March 27 12 minutes ago, red viking said: "Personal accountability" is really just code for "I don't want to provide any help to people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc." The people who are personally accountable are the reason people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc. have the help that exists today. 3
Bigbrog Posted March 27 Posted March 27 13 minutes ago, red viking said: "Personal accountability" is really just code for "I don't want to provide any help to people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc." People who say things like this is code for victim, simple and weak minded, wrong, lazy, uneducated, etc. Fun game to play isn't it. Maybe save yourself the time and others time from having to read it and just don't post stupid crap like you did. 1
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, jross said: The people who are personally accountable are the reason people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc. have the help that exists today. what is needed to help these groups more or prevent more people from falling into these buckets? And what do we do about the people keeping us from being able to help these groups more?
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, Bigbrog said: People who say things like this is code for victim, simple and weak minded, wrong, lazy, uneducated, etc. Fun game to play isn't it. Maybe save yourself the time and others time from having to read it and just don't post stupid crap like you did. Are there victims within those groups? People that had little to no choice but to fall into handicapped, addicted, old, or homeless?
jross Posted March 27 Author Posted March 27 Just now, jross said: The people who are personally accountable are the reason people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc. have the help that exists today. People who demand that others take care of them/others without first taking personal accountability for themselves strain communal resources and create challenges for the community. These people create a culture of dependency, erode trust, foster resentment, and undermine what they advocate for. 2
Bigbrog Posted March 27 Posted March 27 20 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: What is grey, just about everything. The 'personal responsibility/accountability' will differ from situation to situation. All I'm saying is that using the term 'personal responsibility/accountability' is nice and is probably comforting but it shuts down any nuanced conversation. Because they will be situation specific. Grey about blaming vs accountability, in my experience is based on the perceived moral superiority and power/influence of one side vs another. They both could be considered in the right but through objective lenses there could be facts that are indisputable. Rather than talking in generalities, we could have a conversation about a topic, specifically, rather than an obscure term like 'personal accountability' that cannot be defined. So it sounds like you skirt the term "accountability" by falling back on the adage of "nuance". You know exactly what it means and what it references...yet you want to bog it down with all these "what if's" and one-off circumstances...I ask you why do you want to do that?? It literally would be impossible to have a conversation with someone if all you talked about where the what if's and one off's.
red viking Posted March 27 Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Bigbrog said: People who say things like this is code for victim, simple and weak minded, wrong, lazy, uneducated, etc. Fun game to play isn't it. Maybe save yourself the time and others time from having to read it and just don't post stupid crap like you did. All I ask is that we just cut to the chase and be honest re: what this is about. The rich want their taxes lowered and they'll give any justification that they can. 1
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 29 minutes ago, mspart said: I will add this. Without a sense that there is a God and that we are accountable to him, these questions cannot be truly answered. When we lose our mooring from what is eternal truth, then there is all sorts of rationalizations that occur that take us away from base truths. Personal Accountability starts with how that applies to our relationship with God. If there is a God, then it seems pretty clear what our personal accountability is. You do what is right and there is no question of what is right and what is wrong. If there is no God or we choose not to believe in God, then it seems pretty clear that there is no personal accountability in the same sense. It is whatever you think is right or wrong and how you keep yourself accountable to that. But with no serious spiritual mooring, this can be anything an individual wants it to be. And therein is the rationalization of human behavior. That's my opinion. mspart Correct me if I'm wrong but this reads as another example of 'What I want at the time is right and if your approach to a situation is different then its wrong'
jross Posted March 27 Author Posted March 27 29 minutes ago, mspart said: I will add this. Without a sense that there is a God and that we are accountable to him, these questions cannot be truly answered. When we lose our mooring from what is eternal truth, then there is all sorts of rationalizations that occur that take us away from base truths. Personal Accountability starts with how that applies to our relationship with God. If there is a God, then it seems pretty clear what our personal accountability is. You do what is right and there is no question of what is right and what is wrong. If there is no God or we choose not to believe in God, then it seems pretty clear that there is no personal accountability in the same sense. It is whatever you think is right or wrong and how you keep yourself accountable to that. But with no serious spiritual mooring, this can be anything an individual wants it to be. And therein is the rationalization of human behavior. That's my opinion. mspart IMO, the golden rule is a universal principle of ethics and morality that transcends specific cultural or religious beliefs. The drive to survive and thrive... Right and wrong stems from 'treat others the way you want to be treated.' Human societies have historically thrived when individuals cooperate, support each other, and treat others with fairness and compassion. And you can't do that without starting with personal accountability. 1
Bigbrog Posted March 27 Posted March 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, red viking said: All I ask is that we just cut to the chase and be honest re: what this is about. The rich want their taxes lowered and they'll give any justification that they can. Taxes and the rich??? WTF?!?! You must be TPTD's little babble brother who wants to change the subject every other post for some reason. I'll cut to the chase...this is about self accountability....period. Not about anything other than you shouldn't expect others to do things for you without you doing everything you can do to help yourself FIRST. It isn't blaming others for your ill wills and unfortunate situation. It isn't expecting handouts and taking the easy way out. It is about working hard. It is about dealing with the hand you are dealt in life. It is about constant self-improvement. Etc.... Edited March 27 by Bigbrog
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 9 minutes ago, jross said: The people who are personally accountable are the reason people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc. have the help that exists today. 4 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: what is needed to help these groups more or prevent more people from falling into these buckets? And what do we do about the people keeping us from being able to help these groups more? 3 minutes ago, jross said: People who demand that others take care of them/others without first taking personal accountability for themselves strain communal resources and create challenges for the community. These people create a culture of dependency, erode trust, foster resentment, and undermine what they advocate for. No one has demanded it. As a society we benefit from this happening less and less. Prevention is better than action following a diagnosis. Interesting that you didn't answer my follow up questions. Just kept repeating your line of personal responsibility. What is needed; education, firstly to dispel the fallacious reasoning that it is a choice, in some situations it isn't. The more people get comfortable say that its a choice the less likely resources will be made available to treat and prevent others from ending up there. What to do about people, well your opinion and your voice is actively harming people by repeating a message that is wrong. Medical science and economics would tell you that spending money to prevent these things pays back the investment over time in productivity and lives saved. How much is a life worth? I'll be that comes back in further conversations. People that peddle wrong information, that have actually authority, should be held accountable. That they keep getting reelected or whatever because they spout garbage is a travesty. I'd be embarrassed if they represented me. What fosters resentment is your trope of personal responsibility. Not understanding that it is to some extent and is NOT in others. That we are all better off if these things are treated and prevented, not just band aids put over them for fear of losing an election because to much ignorant information is out there.
jross Posted March 27 Author Posted March 27 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: what is needed to help these groups more or prevent more people from falling into these buckets? And what do we do about the people keeping us from being able to help these groups more? This has been a problem for eternia. So keep doing the current support services for those in need now. Get your own life in order so that you can choose to spend more time helping the village than whining about wanting more from others. Integrate personal accountability into the school curricula starting with pre-school... and the next generation will have been empowered within 30 years. Edited March 27 by jross 1
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 (edited) 10 minutes ago, jross said: This has been a problem for eternia. So keep doing the current support services for those in need now. Get your own life in order so that you can choose spend more time helping the village than whining about wanting more from others. Integrate personal accountability into the school curricula starting with pre-school... and the next generation will have been empowered within 30 years. I'm not sure you have an accurate view of these situations. Addicts don't really advocate for themselves to be helped. That's not how addiction works. Ok. Real simple. Spend more money on education and treatment for addicts and the homeless. Studies have shown that whatever is spent is paid back with productivity and lives saved. There is, literally, no down side to helping these people. It seems like you don't want to help people that you feel are not worthy of help. Is that right? If so what is your metric for determining the criteria? Is it just the nebulous term that you haven't defined, 'personal accountability'? Edited March 27 by ThreePointTakedown repeat
ThreePointTakedown Posted March 27 Posted March 27 Whatever I feel is right or serves my interest best, at the time.
Bigbrog Posted March 27 Posted March 27 1 minute ago, ThreePointTakedown said: It seems as if you have a skewed view of these situations. Addicts don't really advocate for themselves to be helped. That's not how addiction works. Ok. Real simple. Spend more money on education and treatment for addicts and the homeless. Studies have shown that whatever is spent is paid back with productivity and lives saved. There is, literally, no down side to helping these people. It seems like you don't want to help people that you feel are not worthy of help. Is that right? If so what is your metric for determining the criteria? Is it just the nebulous term that you haven't defined, 'personal accountability'? You do realize that the data shows, without doubt, that a person's chance of getting to a point where their addiction isn't controlling their life is much higher when THEY want to help themselves...aka, self accountability. In treatment what do you think they preach...yep...self accountability! Yes, I know some surround the treatment around God, but ultimately it still is all about self accountability. Also, one isn't going to not be homeless if they don't want to help themselves. 2
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