One principle that stands above all others: personal accountability

[red viking]

50 minutes ago, jross said:

This conversation is not about taxes.

But I hope everyone takes enough personal responsibility to eventually make enough money to want their taxes lowered.

B.S. We all know that that is what this is about. The rich wingers just want to be richer and pay as little as possible in taxes and stick it to the poor. Cut the garbage rationalizing. That's really the main GOP agenda. Widen the wealth gap. 

Edited March 27 by red viking

[ThreePointTakedown]

12 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Disagree

Do go on? 

[jross]

5 minutes ago, red viking said:

B.S. We all know that that is what this is about. The rich wingers just want to be richer and pay as little as possible in taxes and stick it to the poor. Cut the garbage rationalizing. That's really the main GOP agenda. Widen the wealth gap. 

As the OP, I decided what this topic was about, that is personal accountability. Perhaps you could create a tax wingers topic.

[ThreePointTakedown]

6 minutes ago, jross said:

As the OP, I decided what this topic was about, that is personal accountability. Perhaps you could create a tax wingers topic.

So we've agreed that there are legitimate reasons to ask for help. Why are we not giving it? We have the resources. 

Is it patriotic to horde astronomical wealth that your family will be able to live off of and never need to work? 

Use that wealth to 'donate' to campaigns that would loosen laws to help you accumulate more and/or retain more of what you've accumulated? 

Seems to go against the accountability argument. Once personal accountability has been established and wealth/affluence has been gained, are we not accountable to those that we could help but choose not to? 

[red viking]

It's more important to give $$$ to Israel so they can murder more Palestinian kids and to our military for their imperialism, which already accounts for about half the world's military funding. Helping the old, young,  sick and handicapped is not nearly as important because all they have to do is  just take accountability...

[jross]

19 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I read the post about the work issue.

Do you know all the details involved with making the adjustments to the product and how it might effect both directions of the chain? 

And does everyone have to listen to your suggestions about everything?  

What steps did you take to address all the issues that could potentially arise from making the change to the product? 

Sorry, probably not questions you anticipated being asked. I understand venting is important. Answer if you want. Otherwise I'll consider the issue covered. 

Comment about the water line scenario, if you take action and 'fix' a pipe that is under the purview of the city/county/state you would, quite possibly, be sited for a crime. If not mess things up more. Not sure how it fits with the 'personal accountability'. 'I will leave that to the experts rather than messing something up way more.' is a level of self realization that is commendable. Then call the city to let them know. 

Of course I cannot know all the details involved.  But there is a difference of opinion.  I had a conversation with the product owner today and discussed those analogies.  He brought up HOA -- why is he paying his HOA?  I asked how his daughter would respond if he pointed her to the HOA.  As the home owner, he is the one that must pound on the doors of the utility company and HOA to get the problem taken care of.  He is the one that ultimately must follow up with site hosting, operations, and the customer to get the problem accepted or rectified. 

There is not actually a problem within the product's direct source code, rather it is within the platform it runs on (Windows, Network, and client side factors).  The user wants to open a file to import into the product, and the Microsoft file open dialog hangs due to a share drive dependency.  The user does not care where the problem is.  The product owner's engagement has been 'not me' while I informed him of the workflow, his code implementation, how many users were impacted, impact frequency, root cause, and engaged others on his behalf.  I informed him that I would go a different route and uninvited him from further conversation.  Then, he engaged.

I identify as a cat that is also a professional cat herder.

[red viking]

How about this? Israel becomes self accountable and fully funds their own military and everything else?

[Danny Deck]

I recently finished Supercommunicators by Charles Duhigg. The most interesting part to me was about how successful couples don't argue less or about different things than unsuccessful couples. Rather they don't use arguments to control each other. People react very negatively when someone takes away their agency, but don't always realize when they're ceding it. If something is the way it has always been, you may not realize what about a situation actually remains within your control.

A quote I like, "How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want?” I weigh more than I say I want, but then I also snack. I can blame everyone from the admin assistant at the office who keeps a candy jar stocked to Ray Kroc, but ultimately I'm the one with the most agency in this situation.

[mspart]

30 minutes ago, red viking said:

How about this? Israel becomes self accountable and fully funds their own military and everything else?

How about the Gazans become self accountable and fully fund their own economy and everything else and stop killing Israelis for fun and giggles?  

mspart

[JimmyBT]

1 hour ago, jross said:

As the OP, I decided what this topic was about, that is personal accountability. Perhaps you could create a tax wingers topic.

He tried that already. As usual he failed 

[JimmyBT]

38 minutes ago, red viking said:

How about this? Israel becomes self accountable and fully funds their own military and everything else?

How about when Ukraine does ? 

[WrestlingRasta]

2 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Do go on? 

I already did. We get no where talking in circles for days. You will see that one day. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

So we've agreed that there are legitimate reasons to ask for help. Why are we not giving it? We have the resources. 

Is it patriotic to horde astronomical wealth that your family will be able to live off of and never need to work? 

Use that wealth to 'donate' to campaigns that would loosen laws to help you accumulate more and/or retain more of what you've accumulated? 

Seems to go against the accountability argument. Once personal accountability has been established and wealth/affluence has been gained, are we not accountable to those that we could help but choose not to? 

We, the people/government, spend more money than we have due to a lack of accountability.

Accumulating wealth to achieve financial security and comfort without the necessity of working is good.

One lacks personal accountability when coercing others into giving in ways that align with their or the mob's desires.

Hoarding wealth excessively while others in the village suffer is irresponsible.

Personal accountability involves making ethical decisions, showing consideration for others, and respecting one's autonomy.

[Paul158]

5 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

So it sounds like you skirt the term "accountability" by falling back on the adage of "nuance".   You know exactly what it means and what it references...yet you want to bog it down with all these "what if's" and one-off circumstances...I ask you why do you want to do that??  It literally would be impossible to have a conversation with someone if all you talked about where the what if's and one off's. 

Maybe he is saying that you are born a victim, might be one "nuance" . Then there are those that are born entitled ,that may be another "nuance". We seem to have a great number of those today.

[Paul158]

1 hour ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I already did. We get no where talking in circles for days. You will see that one day. 

Amen to that.

[JimmyBT]

3 hours ago, red viking said:

It's more important to give $$$ to Israel so they can murder more Palestinian kids and to our military for their imperialism, which already accounts for about half the world's military funding. Helping the old, young,  sick and handicapped is not nearly as important because all they have to do is  just take accountability...

What old, young, sick and handicapped aren’t taken care of?    It’s the adults that can take care of themselves but don’t that are the cost burden.   Especially the younger generations that want everything for doing nothing.   Nice job with the drama card though.  

Edited March 28 by JimmyBT

[ThreePointTakedown]

15 hours ago, jross said:

Of course I cannot know all the details involved.  But there is a difference of opinion.  I had a conversation with the product owner today and discussed those analogies.  He brought up HOA -- why is he paying his HOA?  I asked how his daughter would respond if he pointed her to the HOA.  As the home owner, he is the one that must pound on the doors of the utility company and HOA to get the problem taken care of.  He is the one that ultimately must follow up with site hosting, operations, and the customer to get the problem accepted or rectified. 

There is not actually a problem within the product's direct source code, rather it is within the platform it runs on (Windows, Network, and client side factors).  The user wants to open a file to import into the product, and the Microsoft file open dialog hangs due to a share drive dependency.  The user does not care where the problem is.  The product owner's engagement has been 'not me' while I informed him of the workflow, his code implementation, how many users were impacted, impact frequency, root cause, and engaged others on his behalf.  I informed him that I would go a different route and uninvited him from further conversation.  Then, he engaged.

I identify as a cat that is also a professional cat herder.

Be that as it may. Getting things done can suck sometimes. People are people and they can almost always do better. Accountability is great and we should strive for it. In the mean time lets do good for people because its the right thing to do. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

13 hours ago, jross said:

We, the people/government, spend more money than we have due to a lack of accountability.

Accumulating wealth to achieve financial security and comfort without the necessity of working is good.

One lacks personal accountability when coercing others into giving in ways that align with their or the mob's desires.

Hoarding wealth excessively while others in the village suffer is irresponsible.

Personal accountability involves making ethical decisions, showing consideration for others, and respecting one's autonomy.

How do you reconcile #2 and #4? Seems like they contradict each other. What are differences between them?

[ThreePointTakedown]

12 hours ago, JimmyBT said:

What old, young, sick and handicapped aren’t taken care of?    It’s the adults that can take care of themselves but don’t that are the cost burden.   Especially the younger generations that want everything for doing nothing.   Nice job with the drama card though.  

Everything for doing nothing? 

Do you have examples or is it a 'just look around, its common sense' kinda thing? 

Do you think you have enough of a data sample to generalize an entire generation? 

Edited March 28 by ThreePointTakedown
left out

[ThreePointTakedown]

14 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I already did. We get no where talking in circles for days. You will see that one day. 

Could've seen that coming. Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back. 

[JimmyBT]

Example:  when the educated “so called smart” people want/need/cry for the uneducated “so called stupid” people to pay for their college.  You can’t make it up.  You just can’t.  

[jross]

24 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

How do you reconcile #2 and #4? Seems like they contradict each other. What are differences between them?

Saving enough money to achieve financial independence is being accounatable. It gives you the freedom to pursue your passions, spend time with family, and give back to the community if you choose. For example, if you've got $5 million invested and it's bringing in $200K a year, that's a solid setup for many Cost of Living areas.

Imagine you're a parent who sets aside $5 million for each of your responsible kids to secure their financial futures. This could require $25 million for yourself and your family, which seems fair.  But at some point, it's important to give back to the village that supported you... through charitable donations, village investments, or supporting initiatives for the greater good...

Let's say a billionare is using his money for something he believes in... like reducing climate change through cow diapers.  It seems absurd... I might prefer he creates a library in the poor part of town... but it is his/her choice and exhibits accountability.  My preference does not matter.  Now if he/she doesn't give back to the village that enabled... they are irresponsible.

 

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 hour ago, JimmyBT said:

Example:  when the educated “so called smart” people want/need/cry for the uneducated “so called stupid” people to pay for their college.  You can’t make it up.  You just can’t.  

You should be proud of your contribution to the betterment of the next generation. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

17 minutes ago, jross said:

Saving enough money to achieve financial independence is being accounatable. It gives you the freedom to pursue your passions, spend time with family, and give back to the community if you choose. For example, if you've got $5 million invested and it's bringing in $200K a year, that's a solid setup for many Cost of Living areas.

Imagine you're a parent who sets aside $5 million for each of your responsible kids to secure their financial futures. This could require $25 million for yourself and your family, which seems fair.  But at some point, it's important to give back to the village that supported you... through charitable donations, village investments, or supporting initiatives for the greater good...

Let's say a billionare is using his money for something he believes in... like reducing climate change through cow diapers.  It seems absurd... I might prefer he creates a library in the poor part of town... but it is his/her choice and exhibits accountability.  My preference does not matter.  Now if he/she doesn't give back to the village that enabled... they are irresponsible.

 

Agreed. 

So what do we do about the irresponsible people? 

[ThreePointTakedown]

Just now, JimmyBT said:

People may want to look at where most all of the money for helping the villages comes from.  I believe those rich assholes donated about $250 Billion ly alone.  

Which ones?