It is absolutely wild to me that

[BloodRound]

the US team has as much depth and talented newcomers always ready to take the reigns in this day and age.  I remember just finishing up my first year of college when Kyle Snyder's star was rising.  Now I see on Twitter that his time as the guy at 97 is coming to a close, and we could see Aaron Brooks taking his spot.  Yianni is another one; remember his first NCAA title and his early international success that earned him the reputation of being a world beater.  Now I am not sure I would pick him over the likes of Lee or Retherford to make the world team.  

I am not really here to debate, but to appreciate how much talent USA Wrestling has been producing in the last decade+.

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, BloodRound said:

the US team has as much depth and talented newcomers always ready to take the reigns in this day and age.  I remember just finishing up my first year of college when Kyle Snyder's star was rising.  Now I see on Twitter that his time as the guy at 97 is coming to a close, and we could see Aaron Brooks taking his spot.  Yianni is another one; remember his first NCAA title and his early international success that earned him the reputation of being a world beater.  Now I am not sure I would pick him over the likes of Lee or Retherford to make the world team.  

I am not really here to debate, but to appreciate how much talent USA Wrestling has been producing in the last decade+.

And if you want to talk youth at 65kg, look out for Alirez.

[Spladle08]

3 hours ago, BloodRound said:

the US team has as much depth and talented newcomers always ready to take the reigns in this day and age.  I remember just finishing up my first year of college when Kyle Snyder's star was rising.  Now I see on Twitter that his time as the guy at 97 is coming to a close, and we could see Aaron Brooks taking his spot.  Yianni is another one; remember his first NCAA title and his early international success that earned him the reputation of being a world beater.  Now I am not sure I would pick him over the likes of Lee or Retherford to make the world team.  

I am not really here to debate, but to appreciate how much talent USA Wrestling has been producing in the last decade+.

Applause* Just a slew of exceptional individuals. Some of the most complete teams off all time. 

Not debating. Just conversing

So, I was sitting here reading your post fantasying about what has created this era of excellence. And obviously on the surface it seems fairly straightforward, JB has his emergence, one of those guys that kind pops out of the blue from time to time, he is followed by some all time great folkstyle wrestlers in Dake and Taylor who now have the elevated expectation to meet this World/Olympic Championship level to simply make the team. That tiresome pursuit bleeds into their "Home-Clubs" and the entire product just continued to elevate. 
During the time KD and DT were attempting to "Catch-up" to JB and the World, you had the prodigy Kyle Snyder, who was aspiring to be the best Freestyler ever while folkstyle was kind of on the back burner, step to the forefront and raise the bar for our upper-weights. 
Couple that with the increased funding, widespread exposure to elite technique/mindset,  etc etc etc. you could go on forever but yeah ummmmm it's amazing how a few excellent individuals (in my opinion) have really helped raise the overall bar for the entire system. 

And again not debating, but maybe expounding upon. maybe just a  question

Do you think if we did end up getting lets say 2 consistent finalist in Greco, let's say in their early 20s, where they have a few cycles in them. Could their efforts springboard us to have a more well rounded Greco team? Helping others with technique, mindset, etc.... or is it simply a lost cause. I know those guys work hard, I know they have access to all the same audio-visual tools the freestyle guys have, but it just feels like the advancement is sooooooo slow or not at all.
I guess you always have a chance to wrestle an elite folkstyler which obviously can aid your freestyle game.
I would assume the lack of meaningful competition is the ultimate roadblock to the development of a top-to-bottom strong Greco team. 

Edited February 26 by Spladle08

[pokemonster]

4 hours ago, BloodRound said:

I remember just finishing up my first year of college when Kyle Snyder's star was rising.  Now I see on Twitter that his time as the guy at 97 is coming to a close, and we could see Aaron Brooks taking his spot. 

Oooo do we think Brooks can take out Snyder? The difference between 97kg and 197lbs is over 16 lbs, and Snyder is only 5 years older than Brooks. 

[Spladle08]

4 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Oooo do we think Brooks can take out Snyder? The difference between 97kg and 197lbs is over 16 lbs, and Snyder is only 5 years older than Brooks. 

Eh, Brooks could be the guy one day. 
but not at the Olympics. He can be the guy when Snyder steps down, or maybe next Olympics, but Snyderman has a few more years as a clear-cut top 3 in the World. Brooks still needs to work on scoring against Glazier. 

[pokemonster]

Just now, Spladle08 said:

Eh, Brooks could be the guy one day. 
but not at the Olympics. He can be the guy when Snyder steps down, or maybe next Olympics, but Snyderman has a few more years as a clear-cut top 3 in the World. Brooks still needs to work on scoring against Glazier. 

I'm thinking the same, also thinking he's sticking with 86kg for now before jumping up to 97kg. 

I've always wanted to see how Kyle compared to the likes of DT, Bo Nickal, etc, but unfortunately coach Cael doesn't let them wrestle in public. We missed out on the Bo Nickal / Kyle Snyder matchup we were all hoping for a few years back. 

[BloodRound]

17 minutes ago, Spladle08 said:

Do you think if we did end up getting lets say 2 consistent finalist in Greco, let's say in their early 20s, where they have a few cycles in them. Could their efforts springboard us to have a more well rounded Greco team? Helping others with technique, mindset, etc.... or is it simply a lost cause. I know those guys work hard, I know they have access to all the same audio-visual tools the freestyle guys have, but it just feels like the advancement is sooooooo slow or not at all.
I guess you always have a chance to wrestle an elite folkstyler which obviously can aid your freestyle game.
I would assume the lack of meaningful competition is the ultimate roadblock to the development of a top-to-bottom strong Greco team. 

You bring up a great point.  Our freestyle success has been so abundant that I failed to consider the rather huge blemish that is our failure in Greco.  I honestly have no idea what we do with that.  It seems like the style is fairly unpopular the US wrestlers.  Even those who dedicated themselves to it (Schultz is the first that comes to mind) seem to just have a very apparent disconnect with the rest of the world Greco phone.

[mspart]

We've had limited success in Greco over the years.  

96, Paulsen, Hall, and Ghaffari all won silver.

98 Ghaffari won silver

2000 - Lindland, Lowney, Gardner to silver, bronze, and gold

01 - Paulsen, Lindland, Gardner  - first two with silver, Gardner with Gold. 

02 - Byers Gold

04 - Gardner Bronze

I'm getting this from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_results_in_Greco-Roman_wrestling.

Not a lot of consistency from our guys.   Gardner was pretty consistent. 

The difference is that our FS guys are consistent for the most part. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_results_in_men's_freestyle_wrestling

This shows a different story.   We have had a lot more success in FS, but recently, even more.  

The last year Russia as able to compete as Russia, 2021, we had 7 medalists in 10 weights.    That's pretty good.  

2020 we had 5 medalists in 6 weights. 

We had Hancock in GR that did well and improved his performance every year and took 3rd and then retired.   Perhaps he could have been that guy.    I don't see anyone on the horizon.   It seems like we did better in GR when we had the coach with the secret sauce, Dan Chandler.   He seemed able to get folks ready.  

It will have to come from USA Wrestling I think as they place new emphasis on GR.   Otherwise, it will stay obscure.

mspart

mspart

[wrestle87]

3 hours ago, pokemonster said:

Oooo do we think Brooks can take out Snyder? The difference between 97kg and 197lbs is over 16 lbs, and Snyder is only 5 years older than Brooks. 

This is astonishing.  They are only 5 years apart in age?  I would have said 8-10.  My gob is thoroughly smacked at that.  Especially in a time where we are seeing that, for the right guys, you really can be competitive and engaged well into their 30's. 

 

[MPhillips]

8 hours ago, BloodRound said:

  Now I see on Twitter that his time as the guy at 97 is coming to a close, and we could see Aaron Brooks taking his spot. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 hours ago, pokemonster said:

Oooo do we think Brooks can take out Snyder? The difference between 97kg and 197lbs is over 16 lbs, and Snyder is only 5 years older than Brooks. 

Wasn't Varner pretty young when Snyder took his spot as our rep? I know he took some time off during that cycle but he was also the sitting Olympic champ

[Truzzcat]

There has definitely been a focus on making youth world teams that has come about in the last 10 years or so. That seems to be even bigger to a lot of kids than even like a super 32 belt. I think coupling that with the OTC and all the high level clubs kids are just much better overall at a younger age and especially at freestyle verses even 10 years ago. As for the greco results I think it is definitely less popular but also very few kids dedicate themselves to greco whereas in most other nations you specialize in greco at a very young age. Someone like Joel adams for example who is probably our best greco prospect in years has just in the last year fully committed to training it and that may just be for this olympic push. I think its hard to make up 8-10 years of training something specifically. Especially given the far bigger discrepancy between folk and greco than free and folk.

[pokemonster]

1 minute ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Wasn't Varner pretty young when Snyder took his spot as our rep? I know he took some time off during that cycle but he was also the sitting Olympic champ

Looks like he was 29 when Snyder took him out... so yeah, fairly young in his own regard! 

[wrestle87]

I'm gently astonished we've made it this far without going very in depth on this, maybe I missed it, what is the deal with J'den Cox?  Is he actually going 125kg or is he done with wrestling?

[MPhillips]

3 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

what is the deal with J'den Cox? 

Kyle Snyder. Clocks. Injuries.

 

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

Kyle Snyder. Clocks. Injuries.

 

he's obviously a bit of looney tune also...

[MPhillips]

5 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

few kids dedicate themselves to greco 

Hard to pick up all the nuances in Greco when it's not your focus. It's a different sport. Even if our best guys choose Greco at sixteen, They're still years behind. Not to mention the train wreck that the Greco Olympic Training center has been through. Think about Bastida and Echemendia and the time it's taken them to get to where they are with the transition from Freestyle to Folkstyle and they're still figuring it out.  

[BloodRound]

15 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

There has definitely been a focus on making youth world teams that has come about in the last 10 years or so. That seems to be even bigger to a lot of kids than even like a super 32 belt. I think coupling that with the OTC and all the high level clubs kids are just much better overall at a younger age and especially at freestyle verses even 10 years ago. 

Yeah, the buzz with being an accomplished youth wrestler in freestyle happened over state side during my time in college (2015-2019).  Sebastian Rivera was a local area wrestler and his biggest claim to fame at the start of his senior season was that he won Super 32.  You never heard a word about how he did on the freestyle circuit.  When I first got into coaching, I never heard anyone of note going to that tournament anymore, it was just about youth states and freestyle accolades.

To reference a more recent local upstart, freshman Paul Kenny from CBA's biggest note coming into high school was that he won U17's last summer.  I am sure he was plenty decent in folkstyle tournaments, but you never hear about that.  It is just a culture shock I haven't had time to think on until recently.

[BloodRound]

16 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

This is astonishing.  They are only 5 years apart in age?  I would have said 8-10.  My gob is thoroughly smacked at that.  Especially in a time where we are seeing that, for the right guys, you really can be competitive and engaged well into their 30's. 

 

Kyle Snyder is only one year older than me and that fact still astonishes me to this day.

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

18 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

There has definitely been a focus on making youth world teams that has come about in the last 10 years or so. That seems to be even bigger to a lot of kids than even like a super 32 belt. I think coupling that with the OTC and all the high level clubs kids are just much better overall at a younger age and especially at freestyle verses even 10 years ago. As for the greco results I think it is definitely less popular but also very few kids dedicate themselves to greco whereas in most other nations you specialize in greco at a very young age. Someone like Joel adams for example who is probably our best greco prospect in years has just in the last year fully committed to training it and that may just be for this olympic push. I think its hard to make up 8-10 years of training something specifically. Especially given the far bigger discrepancy between folk and greco than free and folk.

I was just looking at some Fargo results from 2011. Thomas Gilman won at 119 pounds. At 130 pounds, your champion was Zane Richards. The big tournaments and even the little ones are now getting streamed, and that means a lot to the kids. Now there's even more incentive to keep your head down and work for the big stage. It's not just a medal that nobody at school cares about. You're on the teevee!

The RTCs have allowed wrestlers to wrestle. Paychecks can do that. 

The most important factor, I believe, is the number and quality of local clubs and academies. They have popped up all over ILLINOIS, and the coaching is absolutely fantastic. And I don't think it will level off or shrink at any time in the near future because now those coaches and clubs will need to increase in size to instruct women. 

Japanese women look out! 

As for Greco, I think Kamal Bey could be the guy. To be the guy, you have to beat the guy. That's especially true in Greco. International Greco refs always seem to give deference to the reigning or recent world champ. Then, the Silver, and after that, the Bronze. It's almost a caste system based upon the color of your medals. Bey has the talent to win a world championship or Olympics. If he does, then he becomes the man. 

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

Japanese women look out! 

I don't know what we need to do to get access to their programs, but, even though they kick our butts, I can't think of a an organization or a group of people I would more like a hypothetical daughter of mine to get to know.  A bunch of gentle, patient savages.

I know Japan has a lot of kooky aspects to its society, but they have to have things right somehow.  The Japanese women's team is the most dominant team anywhere in the world, across styles, age groups and genders.  Mad respect.

[mspart]

4 hours ago, BloodRound said:

Kyle Snyder is only one year older than me and that fact still astonishes me to this day.

You is one youngin' BR. 

mspart

[Truzzcat]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

I don't know what we need to do to get access to their programs, but, even though they kick our butts, I can't think of a an organization or a group of people I would more like a hypothetical daughter of mine to get to know.  A bunch of gentle, patient savages.

I know Japan has a lot of kooky aspects to its society, but they have to have things right somehow.  The Japanese women's team is the most dominant team anywhere in the world, across styles, age groups and genders.  Mad respect.

I've heard across all of their athletics they put an extreme emphasis on technical perfection above anything else. That seems especially evident in their combat sports i.e. judo and wrestling.

[MPhillips]

9 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I don't know what we need to do to get access to their programs

They had a head start on us. We've closed the gap a bit.

[Hammerlock3]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:07 PM, pokemonster said:

Oooo do we think Brooks can take out Snyder? The difference between 97kg and 197lbs is over 16 lbs, and Snyder is only 5 years older than Brooks. 

yeah i think brooks is 86k...don't we all think Taylor is gonna retire if he gets his second olympic title?