Overall, is Cornell the best choice for elite wrestlers?

[steamboat_charlie]

15 hours ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

I’ve never understood why Ivy League schools aren’t a hothead for sports with minimal pro aspirations. 99.99% of wrestlers, runners, gymnasts, swimmers, etc. are not going to a pro league or getting a shoe deal or whatever to be involved in the sport as a career. Why would they not go to the best possible school in America, be a student athlete (well respected), leave with minimal debt, and then make 100k 1 month out of college. 

Well for one, they don't offer athletic scholarships.  They do generally give very generous need-based aid, but if wrestlers don't qualify for aid, you're looking at the following base level cost of attendance (tuition + fees):

- Cornell: $88,150
- Penn: $89,028
- Harvard: $79,450
- Princeton: $86,700

Beyond that, the cross-section of elite wrestlers and elite students isn't that large.  You have to be able to meet a relatively high bar to get in.  Most of these guys have spent their entire lives focused almost solely on wrestling.  Many of them imagine their future careers will be in wrestling--it's all they know.  This is why half of Cornell's team is in the ag school.

Lastly, you don't need to go to an Ivy to make $100k coming out of college.  You need a brain and a little ambition.  If the #1 recruit in the nation wants to attend PSU and also try to maximize his income coming out of undergrad, he can easily do that if he's smart enough. 

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

1 minute ago, steamboat_charlie said:

Well for one, they don't offer athletic scholarships.  They do generally give very generous need-based aid, but if wrestlers don't qualify for aid, you're looking at the following base level cost of attendance (tuition + fees):

- Cornell: $88,150
- Penn: $89,028
- Harvard: $79,450
- Princeton: $86,700

Beyond that, the cross-section of elite wrestlers and elite students isn't that large.  You have to be able to meet a relatively high bar to get in.  Most of these guys have spent their entire lives focused almost solely on wrestling.  Many of them imagine their future careers will be in wrestling--it's all they know.  This is why half of Cornell's team is in the ag school.

Lastly, you don't need to go to an Ivy to make $100k coming out of college.  You need a brain and a little ambition.  If the #1 recruit in the nation wants to attend PSU and also try to maximize his income coming out of undergrad, he can easily do that if he's smart enough. 

I don’t know anyone making 100k yet, 3 years out of college so that “a brain and a little ambition” comment is a little disingenuous. 
 

But my understanding is that athletes get passed through admissions for being athletes. Also, the average student qualifies for financial help from the university as they all have billion dollar endowments for students that can’t afford the insane cost.

[BigRedFan]

8 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

I don’t know anyone making 100k yet, 3 years out of college so that “a brain and a little ambition” comment is a little disingenuous. 
 

But my understanding is that athletes get passed through admissions for being athletes. Also, the average student qualifies for financial help from the university as they all have billion dollar endowments for students that can’t afford the insane cost.

My daughter, class of 2020, makes 100k.  Ironically, she graduated from Lehigh.

All athletes must meet minimum requirements to be admitted to any university; there is no "pass through."  The minimum requirements may be lower for athletes than for the general population, but the same is likely true for the gifted violinist or physics applicant. 

I cannot recall any Cornell wrestler who had to drop out due to academic ineligibility.  It is in the university's best interest that all admitted students can thrive in the academic environment.

[steamboat_charlie]

15 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

I don’t know anyone making 100k yet, 3 years out of college so that “a brain and a little ambition” comment is a little disingenuous. 
 

But my understanding is that athletes get passed through admissions for being athletes. Also, the average student qualifies for financial help from the university as they all have billion dollar endowments for students that can’t afford the insane cost.

Oversimplified, perhaps, but definitely not disingenuous.  Nobody is going to just hand you (and apparently everyone you know) $100k at 22 years old, just because you graduated.  If you're an engineer (shot in the dark, because Purdue), it's going to take a little longer.  That's the nature of that industry, but then it would've been your choice to pursue that career. 

Fact remains, there are hundreds of tech and financial firms that offer over $100k, in base salary alone, for entry level positions.  If you don't want to go the traditional route, plenty of people in sales positions, wealth management, insurance, real estate, etc., can make that sort of money one year out of school.  

On your last point, whether athletes have an easier path to admission depends on the school, but at every single Ivy there is still a baseline academic standard that you have to meet.  Many elite wrestlers wouldn't qualify even if they wanted to. I'm aware of the average aid packages--that's why I mentioned " very generous need-based aid." 

Edited January 9 by steamboat_charlie

[ugarles]

4 hours ago, BigRedFan said:

As I said, Cornell doesn't recognize majors.  "Engineering" means the College of Engineering.  Students don't typically transfer between Colleges at Cornell, and the more typical case is students enrolling at easier-to-get-into colleges and transferring into the College of Engineering after taking sufficient engineering courses as electives*.  Those listed as being in the College of Engineering are a senior, a junior, a freshman, a sophomore, and another sophomore.

Foca (senior), Cardenas (senior), Fernandez (junior) are the ones in the College of Architecture, Art, and Planning.  Not an easy academic load, IIRC.

 

I don't know when you attended but this is the opposite of what it was like when i was there (early 90's). It seemed like half the English department was ex-engineers because the first couple of years in Engineering are BRUTAL. Transferring into Engineering is rare because the intro courses weed out a substantial number of students who wanted to be engineers from the jump. People who want to transfer would have to run that gauntlet too.

2 hours ago, Jim L said:

Yes. I remember Architecture major  as being very time consuming and need to spend lots of time in studio. It often was a 5 year degree. Very impressive for those Cornell wrestlers to be able to accomplish this

There's a quasi-tradition of architecture students getting a going-away party on the last day of student orientation from the people in their dorm because they are about to disappear into studio like a hibernating bear without the sleep. I have no idea how a wrestler can shoulder the architecture courseload and wonder if they are urban planning students, rather than architects or artists.

[BigRedFan]

2 minutes ago, ugarles said:

I don't know when you attended but this is the opposite of what it was like when i was there (early 90's). It seemed like half the English department was ex-engineers because the first couple of years in Engineering are BRUTAL. Transferring into Engineering is rare because the intro courses weed out a substantial number of students who wanted to be engineers from the jump. People who want to transfer would have to run that gauntlet too.

There's a quasi-tradition of architecture students getting a going-away party on the last day of student orientation from the people in their dorm because they are about to disappear into studio like a hibernating bear without the sleep. I have no idea how a wrestler can shoulder the architecture courseload and wonder if they are urban planning students, rather than architects or artists.

I'm a good bit older than you (Class of 1980).  I lived with a bunch of engineers, and they were pretty dedicated to becoming engineers.  I do recall one guy who dropped out of school (and eventually returned), but he was a mess to begin with.  My gf at the time was pretty exceptional (SAT > 1500, when that actually meant something!), and she managed.  Likely pretty rare, I guess.  I don't think I knew any ex-engineering students, but I didn't ask, and I was engineer-adjacent (CS).

I applied to schools with architecture programs (Cornell, Rice, Carnegie Mellon), but once I saw what the School of Architorture demanded, I committed to computer science.

There was a guy i knew in my class who was on the wrestling team and graduated with a degree in landscape architecture.  One of my senior year housemates was a co-captain and got into medical school.  What a work ethic these guys had.

[AgaveMaria]

Don't rag on "Future Farmers". Where does your food come from?

Most of my neighbors farm. A few have PhD degrees in some Agriculture/Plant Science/business field. Two are plant geneticists. Three have had careers teaching at major Universities.

A number have Masters degrees. A lot of Bachelors in the mix as well as Tech school in farm management.

Combines that cost right at $500,000 and tractors over $300,000 and are computer controlled with GPS systems that map fields and are accurate +- one inch. One tractor with an air seeder now can plant in one day what would have taken 10 workers with individual tractor/seeders 20-40 years ago.

Crop engineering is big. A lot of Ag careers in high tech, from computers to genetics to management.

Two neighbors kids have graduated from Farm Tech programs where the school instructors work with them to set up their own ag operation. Actually do some field work with them. Help set up equipment purchases, land leasing and the like - no "use dad's equipment" in these. They are teaching them to be independant farmers.

Our State has no Corporate farming past  Closely held Family Corporations with ownership being living State residents. NO Big Ag Corporations allowed to own farms and ranches in North Dakota. Family operations only.

That said, some of the family operations are impressive. One neighbor had crop sales last year just under $23 million. Others well over $10 million. Planting, planning and working a few thousand acres takes time, education, knowledge and a lot of work. Air conditioned cabs sound nice and really helps but one still has to be there do operate the machinery and be fast to beat rain storms coming through. Fall means working to beat possible snow and rain, not to mention murmerations of blackbirds in flocks of thousands that descend on mature crop fields and eat into profits.

Bit Semi-truck trailers to haul grain. Most every neighbor has at least one Kenworth or similar big rig with long grain hauling trailers. Many have built new grain bins and dryers so they are not so dependant on the Grain Elevators in town. Good friend recently had built two new 62,000 bushel metal bins and a grain dryer. Bins cost about $2.45 a bushel to build and the grain drying unit was right at $750,000. He dries grain for other farmers, not just his own.

Farming is big business here. Bigger than the Oil fields in the Western part of the State.

So, don't rag on these guys and gals. Many have kids who wrestle. One kid lost an arm just below the Elbow at about 7-8 years old in an auger accident. He wrestled and placed at State. Was a good defensive back on the football team as well - all while still helping on the family farm.

So - don't whine about farmers..., especially with food in your mouth.

[1032004]

11 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Don't rag on "Future Farmers". Where does your food come from?

Most of my neighbors farm. A few have PhD degrees in some Agriculture/Plant Science/business field. Two are plant geneticists. Three have had careers teaching at major Universities.

A number have Masters degrees. A lot of Bachelors in the mix as well as Tech school in farm management.

Combines that cost right at $500,000 and tractors over $300,000 and are computer controlled with GPS systems that map fields and are accurate +- one inch. One tractor with an air seeder now can plant in one day what would have taken 10 workers with individual tractor/seeders 20-40 years ago.

Crop engineering is big. A lot of Ag careers in high tech, from computers to genetics to management.

Two neighbors kids have graduated from Farm Tech programs where the school instructors work with them to set up their own ag operation. Actually do some field work with them. Help set up equipment purchases, land leasing and the like - no "use dad's equipment" in these. They are teaching them to be independant farmers.

Our State has no Corporate farming past  Closely held Family Corporations with ownership being living State residents. NO Big Ag Corporations allowed to own farms and ranches in North Dakota. Family operations only.

That said, some of the family operations are impressive. One neighbor had crop sales last year just under $23 million. Others well over $10 million. Planting, planning and working a few thousand acres takes time, education, knowledge and a lot of work. Air conditioned cabs sound nice and really helps but one still has to be there do operate the machinery and be fast to beat rain storms coming through. Fall means working to beat possible snow and rain, not to mention murmerations of blackbirds in flocks of thousands that descend on mature crop fields and eat into profits.

Bit Semi-truck trailers to haul grain. Most every neighbor has at least one Kenworth or similar big rig with long grain hauling trailers. Many have built new grain bins and dryers so they are not so dependant on the Grain Elevators in town. Good friend recently had built two new 62,000 bushel metal bins and a grain dryer. Bins cost about $2.45 a bushel to build and the grain drying unit was right at $750,000. He dries grain for other farmers, not just his own.

Farming is big business here. Bigger than the Oil fields in the Western part of the State.

So, don't rag on these guys and gals. Many have kids who wrestle. One kid lost an arm just below the Elbow at about 7-8 years old in an auger accident. He wrestled and placed at State. Was a good defensive back on the football team as well - all while still helping on the family farm.

So - don't whine about farmers..., especially with food in your mouth.

Agree.  Although I’d be curious about how many Cornell wrestling ag school alums actually work in that field.

[Wrestleknownothing]

25 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Don't rag on "Future Farmers". Where does your food come from?

Most of my neighbors farm. A few have PhD degrees in some Agriculture/Plant Science/business field. Two are plant geneticists. Three have had careers teaching at major Universities.

A number have Masters degrees. A lot of Bachelors in the mix as well as Tech school in farm management.

Combines that cost right at $500,000 and tractors over $300,000 and are computer controlled with GPS systems that map fields and are accurate +- one inch. One tractor with an air seeder now can plant in one day what would have taken 10 workers with individual tractor/seeders 20-40 years ago.

Crop engineering is big. A lot of Ag careers in high tech, from computers to genetics to management.

Two neighbors kids have graduated from Farm Tech programs where the school instructors work with them to set up their own ag operation. Actually do some field work with them. Help set up equipment purchases, land leasing and the like - no "use dad's equipment" in these. They are teaching them to be independant farmers.

Our State has no Corporate farming past  Closely held Family Corporations with ownership being living State residents. NO Big Ag Corporations allowed to own farms and ranches in North Dakota. Family operations only.

That said, some of the family operations are impressive. One neighbor had crop sales last year just under $23 million. Others well over $10 million. Planting, planning and working a few thousand acres takes time, education, knowledge and a lot of work. Air conditioned cabs sound nice and really helps but one still has to be there do operate the machinery and be fast to beat rain storms coming through. Fall means working to beat possible snow and rain, not to mention murmerations of blackbirds in flocks of thousands that descend on mature crop fields and eat into profits.

Bit Semi-truck trailers to haul grain. Most every neighbor has at least one Kenworth or similar big rig with long grain hauling trailers. Many have built new grain bins and dryers so they are not so dependant on the Grain Elevators in town. Good friend recently had built two new 62,000 bushel metal bins and a grain dryer. Bins cost about $2.45 a bushel to build and the grain drying unit was right at $750,000. He dries grain for other farmers, not just his own.

Farming is big business here. Bigger than the Oil fields in the Western part of the State.

So, don't rag on these guys and gals. Many have kids who wrestle. One kid lost an arm just below the Elbow at about 7-8 years old in an auger accident. He wrestled and placed at State. Was a good defensive back on the football team as well - all while still helping on the family farm.

So - don't whine about farmers..., especially with food in your mouth.

I drove past a fair ground in WI this weekend that is having a combine demolition derby the day before Father's Day. I know what I will be doing.

[AZ_wrestling]

20 hours ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

I’ve never understood why Ivy League schools aren’t a hothead for sports with minimal pro aspirations. 99.99% of wrestlers, runners, gymnasts, swimmers, etc. are not going to a pro league or getting a shoe deal or whatever to be involved in the sport as a career. Why would they not go to the best possible school in America, be a student athlete (well respected), leave with minimal debt, and then make 100k 1 month out of college. 

I think you’re forgetting what the mindset of these kids is at 17-18 years old. Most aren’t thinking about career opportunity, debt, salary, etc. They are instead consumed with wrestling. Decisions are based on what will improve their chances of winning national and world titles. Most are overconfident and even delusional. I suspect the Ivy education is more enticing to the parents than the athletes. 

[MPhillips]

15 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I drove past a fair ground in WI this weekend that is having a combine demolition derby the day before Father's Day. I know what I will be doing.

Ours was in October...

[MPhillips]

14 minutes ago, AZ_wrestling said:

I suspect the Ivy education is more enticing to the parents than the athletes. 

And good for them...

[Hammerlock3]

41 minutes ago, AZ_wrestling said:

I suspect the Ivy education is more enticing to the parents than the athletes. 

the reputation of the ivy league, and higher education in general is taking a lot of hits lately.

[MPhillips]

7 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

the reputation of the ivy league, and higher education in general is taking a lot of hits lately.

What isn't taking hits lately...

[Hammerlock3]

2 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

What isn't taking hits lately...

Cinnabon? 

[Ohio Elite]

9 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Cinnabon? 

He needs a beat down.

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Agree.  Although I’d be curious about how many Cornell wrestling ag school alums actually work in that field.

I'm guessing Lewis Fernandes will be doing just that.

Quote

 

Growing up on his family’s working farm in Tewksbury with cattle, chickens, pigs and other animals, Fernandes and his older brothers, Michael (Voorhees Class of ’17) and Scott (Voorhees Class of ’18), benefitted from physical labor.

“You’ve got to mow the lawn, take care of the chickens, take care of the pigs, slaughter the cows,” Fernandes said, adding that he and his siblings also chop down trees for firewood to keep the house warm in the winter.

 

 

[Red Blades]

On 1/9/2024 at 2:51 PM, ugarles said:

There's a quasi-tradition of architecture students getting a going-away party on the last day of student orientation from the people in their dorm because they are about to disappear into studio like a hibernating bear without the sleep. I have no idea how a wrestler can shoulder the architecture courseload and wonder if they are urban planning students, rather than architects or artists.

I was in AAP - in my freshman dorm, I was known as "The Ghost" on the floor, because I was so seldom seen - and there were some (including my room mate) who questioned if I really did exist!