New Rankings Out - Intermat/Flo

[nhs67]

While I do enjoy that Intermat puts their record in them and I know that his loss to Blaze doesn't count towards RPI and whatnot... what does bother me is it effected his ranking.  Both Flo and Intermat dropped him, as they should have.  What I don't particularly agree with is punishing yet now showing the reason for punishment in the record.  He is 5-1, not 5-0. 

Much like Valencia and Hall a few years back due to the NWCA all-star classic result effecting the coaches ranking, which in turn effected seeding at NCAAs.  I know Valencia did beat him at NCAAs and the point may seem moot, I must disagree and say that it is not.  You can't say "It doesn't effect it" when it does.  If he, Noto, and Figs all go undefeated at this point and CR reflects what is there, he will be, in fact, penalized for his loss.

Just put the loss in, boys.  I enjoy your rankings better because of it.  We understand it isn't supposed to effect it, however it does and will.

https://www.flowrestling.org/rankings/10846490-2023-24-ncaa-di-rankings/46674-125-anthony-noto

[BigRedFan]

I'm still at a loss to understand why Intermat ranks freshman Chittum, who was 3-1 against D1 opponents last year, at #18 at 157 when they leave freshman Shapiro off completely, despite his 15-0 record last year against D1 opponents.

Flo has Shapiro at #21, and leaves off Chittum completely.

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

 He is 5-1, not 5-0. 

not officially. not according the NCAA.

[nhs67]

Just now, Husker_Du said:

not officially. not according the NCAA.

I hear you, however to the coaches who rank he is 5-1 now.  So he is officially not officially still being penalized for a loss that should not count, right?

[nhs67]

25 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

I'm still at a loss to understand why Intermat ranks freshman Chittum, who was 3-1 against D1 opponents last year, at #18 at 157 when they leave freshman Shapiro off completely, despite his 15-0 record last year against D1 opponents.

Flo has Shapiro at #21, and leaves off Chittum completely.

In either case I appreciate rankings.  I am finding that I agree a bit more with Intermat the further Flo gets from the Brain-era, though.

I understand sticking to a ranking system, but the whole 'oath' thing and whatnot is a bit much.

[Husker_Du]

same with AS Classic.

but the fact of the matter is NCAA rules and record keeping.

i agree w/ you that it SHOULD count officially.

i would also think it would be silly for the NCAA to list him, officially, as 5-0 and for intermat to list him 5-1

[1032004]

5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

So he is officially not officially still being penalized for a loss that should not count, right?

Yes and I think that is fine.   NCAA doesn’t count matches against high schoolers, but it still happened and is perfectly valid to include as ranking criteria.

I wonder what the “ranker’s oath” or whatever would have said if Blaze had beaten Palmer…would Ramos had stayed #1?

[nhs67]

8 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

same with AS Classic.

but the fact of the matter is NCAA rules and record keeping.

i agree w/ you that it SHOULD count officially.

i would also think it would be silly for the NCAA to list him, officially, as 5-0 and for intermat to list him 5-1

That is fair, I suppose.

It is odd that even though it isn't supposed to count, it absolutely will.  Just like with the AS classic.

[nhs67]

For argument's sake lets say Lewis beats Stalrocci at the ASC (it won't happen...).

They both have rather stellar seasons and dominate their way to NCAAs.

The coaches rank will have Lewis higher, despite Stalrocci being the three time defending champion at the weight.  That will factor in to the formula.  That isn't right.  Either one or the other, not some fake and invisible in-between.

Would the NCAA step in and swap them if Lewis came ahead in the seeds?  If not, then an exhibition match that doesn't count would have definitively effected NCAA seeding for a three time defending champion.

[Dogbone]

The seeding committee doesn't take into account previous seasons.  

Remember, Brooks was the #3 seed last year.  

[ionel]

1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

For argument's sake lets say Lewis beats Stalrocci at the ASC (it won't happen...).

They both have rather stellar seasons and dominate their way to NCAAs.

The coaches rank will have Lewis higher, despite Stalrocci being the three time defending champion at the weight.  That will factor in to the formula.  That isn't right.  Either one or the other, not some fake and invisible in-between.

Would the NCAA step in and swap them if Lewis came ahead in the seeds?  If not, then an exhibition match that doesn't count would have definitively effected NCAA seeding for a three time defending champion.

Let's say Stalrocci  gets the 2 seed but the 3 seed gets knocked off before the semis.  That wouldn't be right cause Stalrocci would have an easier path as the 2 than he would have as the 1.  

[boconnell]

I'm fine with the All-Star match not counting.  It's an exhibition.  

But if you are wrestling in an actual regular season event, then it should count as a match regardless of who the opponent is.  If the opponent is allowed into the college tournament, then it should count on your official record.  

[1032004]

4 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I'm fine with the All-Star match not counting.  It's an exhibition.  

But if you are wrestling in an actual regular season event, then it should count as a match regardless of who the opponent is.  If the opponent is allowed into the college tournament, then it should count on your official record.  

I think the reverse.  I don't see why the All Star match shouldn't count on records.

But I think it makes sense not to count matches against non-NCAA opponents.

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I'm fine with the All-Star match not counting.  It's an exhibition.  

But if you are wrestling in an actual regular season event, then it should count as a match regardless of who the opponent is.  If the opponent is allowed into the college tournament, then it should count on your official record.  

 

2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think the reverse.  I don't see why the All Star match shouldn't count on records.

But I think it makes sense not to count matches against non-NCAA opponents.

I see it opposite of both:  it doesn't really matter. 

[LIKyle]

Personally, I am not sure if Ramos should have dropped in the rankings. Blaze is not in the NCAA Field, therefore he should not impact NCAA rankings. When post grads wrestle in midlands and beat current wrestlers, it typically does not impact their ranking. Shouldn't this be handled the same way?

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, LIKyle said:

Personally, I am not sure if Ramos should have dropped in the rankings. Blaze is not in the NCAA Field, therefore he should not impact NCAA rankings. When post grads wrestle in midlands and beat current wrestlers, it typically does not impact their ranking. Shouldn't this be handled the same way?

Yes

[Gus]

5 minutes ago, LIKyle said:

Personally, I am not sure if Ramos should have dropped in the rankings. Blaze is not in the NCAA Field, therefore he should not impact NCAA rankings. When post grads wrestle in midlands and beat current wrestlers, it typically does not impact their ranking. Shouldn't this be handled the same way?

Ramos placed lower than his NCAA counterpart (Brayden Palmer UTC) in the tournament. Has to count for something.

[nhs67]

2 minutes ago, Gus said:

Ramos placed lower than his NCAA counterpart (Brayden Palmer UTC) in the tournament. Has to count for something.

It will.  Common opponents are factored in in the formula.

Assuming it doesn't change.

[nhs67]

6 minutes ago, ionel said:

Yes

It did, though.

I could see them moving Figs above him, as he lost to him last year, but not Noto.

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

In either case I appreciate rankings.  I am finding that I agree a bit more with Intermat the further Flo gets from the Brain-era, though.

I understand sticking to a ranking system, but the whole 'oath' thing and whatnot is a bit much.

An the oath is a lie.

Flo claims these are not predictions, but then to come up with their team rankings they treat their individual rankings as though they are predictions. 

[Ohio Elite]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

 

 It doesn't really matter. 

Great song by Queen!

[1032004]

1 hour ago, LIKyle said:

Personally, I am not sure if Ramos should have dropped in the rankings. Blaze is not in the NCAA Field, therefore he should not impact NCAA rankings. When post grads wrestle in midlands and beat current wrestlers, it typically does not impact their ranking. Shouldn't this be handled the same way?

I think it's really only because of the common opponent result.   I would imagine if a post grad entered Midlands and beat one guy but lost to a different guy it could have impacted the rankings.

[TNwrestling]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

It will.  Common opponents are factored in in the formula.

Assuming it doesn't change.

So Palmer wins the Clarion Open at a weight lower than what he was previously ranked at. Beating Blaze who won over Ramos. I know there was no head to head matchup between the two but...

 

New rankings come out and he's ranked LOWER than he was at the higher weight. Someone make that make any sense at all. 

[1032004]

46 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

So Palmer wins the Clarion Open at a weight lower than what he was previously ranked at. Beating Blaze who won over Ramos. I know there was no head to head matchup between the two but...

 

New rankings come out and he's ranked LOWER than he was at the higher weight. Someone make that make any sense at all. 

What does the ranker's oath say about common opponents?  Should Palmer be #1 (or #2 behind Figs) because he's undefeated at 125 and has a common opponent advantage over Ramos?

[TNwrestling]

31 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What does the ranker's oath say about common opponents?  Should Palmer be #1 (or #2 behind Figs) because he's undefeated at 125 and has a common opponent advantage over Ramos?

I didnt say that. I asked someone to make sense of him going DOWN in the rankings when he dropped weight. That's it.

 

Make that make sense.