3 point takedowns but 2 point reversals

[wrestle87]

13 hours ago, boconnell said:

Very weird that the original post is a freestyle fan who doesn't like the reversal being worth less than the TD.

That’s a pretty hefty bait and switch to assert that bc I’m also a fan of freestyle wrestling it means I’m on board with the entire ruleset.  

International wrestling is a clusterf*ck.  Both greco and freestyle have been through more rule changes than I care to count since I first started wrestling.  I hope very much that folkstyle doesn’t turn into that.  A move like this is a considerable step in that direction IMO.

Also, since you brought it up, 90% of the wrestling I did lifetime was folkstyle, and I’d say 75% of what I watch in a given year is folkstyle.  I’m a folkstyle fan first and foremost.

[1032004]

58 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Wouldn't they both be stalling if the top guy was just laying on the bottom guy. What are the rules bottom wrestler? Just laying on the mat is stalling unless its freestyle.

Possibly, but if the top guy is just laying on top (such as in double boots for example) then he is preventing the bottom guy from being able to do much.

[Jim L]

12 hours ago, pmilk said:

... Did some of you lose to folks who got ahead, stayed ahead, and killed time effectively and if so, why weren't you ahead so you could have used the same mechanisms to win a match against a very tough opponent...  

I lost all sorts of matches in many different ways, so to imply that people who want to see the rules evolve are bitter losers is silly. 

I just feel TDs are harder to get and should be rewarded more.  1 TD should be worth more than 2 escapes, IMO.

[boconnell]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:30 PM, wrestle87 said:

That’s a pretty hefty bait and switch to assert that bc I’m also a fan of freestyle wrestling it means I’m on board with the entire ruleset.  

International wrestling is a clusterf*ck.  Both greco and freestyle have been through more rule changes than I care to count since I first started wrestling.  I hope very much that folkstyle doesn’t turn into that.  A move like this is a considerable step in that direction IMO.

Also, since you brought it up, 90% of the wrestling I did lifetime was folkstyle, and I’d say 75% of what I watch in a given year is folkstyle.  I’m a folkstyle fan first and foremost.

In Freestyle a simple TD is worth double what a reversal is.  In Folkstyle it's worth 1.5Xs.  It's weird that you took the time to comment on folkstyle rules and how they compare to freestyle without noting that.

[boconnell]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:44 AM, russelscout said:

One score and put the running shoes on! Great for the sport!

This rule did nothing to solve stalling and boring matches… if anything, it will make it worse.

So your assertion is that offensive scores being worth more in comparison to defensive scores will encourage less offense.

I guess that's a take.

[wrestle87]

8 hours ago, boconnell said:

In Freestyle a simple TD is worth double what a reversal is.  In Folkstyle it's worth 1.5Xs.  It's weird that you took the time to comment on folkstyle rules and how they compare to freestyle without noting that.

I’m guessing you are relatively new to wrestling if you do not remember an era of 1 point freestyle takedowns.  The entire point of the discussion is a change of rules which materially affects the nature of how matches are conducted and navigated.  Freestyle and Greco have undergone a litany of such changes in an effort to stay relevant or “entertaining” in the eyes of the IOC.

[russelscout]

15 hours ago, boconnell said:

So your assertion is that offensive scores being worth more in comparison to defensive scores will encourage less offense.

I guess that's a take.

Score once and sit on a lead. This was already a problem and this makes it worse. This in no way guarantees that wrestlers will attack more frequently.
 

It’s not rocket science. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by russelscout

[jross]

1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Score once and sit on a lead. This was already a problem and this makes it worse. This in no way guarantees that wrestlers will attack more frequently.
 

It’s not rocket science. 

You have a valid point about the winner sitting on a lead.  However, the losing wrestler seems more inclined to attack since they likely will not escape their way to a tie.  Will fewer matches go to overtime?

[1032004]

23 minutes ago, jross said:

You have a valid point about the winner sitting on a lead.  However, the losing wrestler seems more inclined to attack since they likely will not escape their way to a tie.  Will fewer matches go to overtime?

Yeah I think this is what’s been happening in practice, and yes for that reason I think fewer matches will go into overtime.

[jross]

 

[pmilk]

Read the stalling rule and that is the template that guides how you on how to "smart stall." It's a rather simple plan. Get ahead, stay ahead, get your hand raised. Wrestle within the rules. For the fella who "lost all sorts of matches in many different ways," all I can say is that perhaps you could have benefitted from the smart stalling strategy, unless you were never ahead. And you are correct, I should have explicitly stated that no one should be smart enough to manipulate the rules to their advantage to beat an opponent who isn't as gifted mentally. I was never bitter when I've lost, I was mostly livid....I was only bitter that I didn't wrestle smarter. Actually, the rule changes are the gradual continuation of eliminating folkstyle and transitioning to freestyle. Bummer. 

[Paul158]

9 minutes ago, pmilk said:

Read the stalling rule and that is the template that guides how you on how to "smart stall." It's a rather simple plan. Get ahead, stay ahead, get your hand raised. Wrestle within the rules. For the fella who "lost all sorts of matches in many different ways," all I can say is that perhaps you could have benefitted from the smart stalling strategy, unless you were never ahead. And you are correct, I should have explicitly stated that no one should be smart enough to manipulate the rules to their advantage to beat an opponent who isn't as gifted mentally. I was never bitter when I've lost, I was mostly livid....I was only bitter that I didn't wrestle smarter. Actually, the rule changes are the gradual continuation of eliminating folkstyle and transitioning to freestyle. Bummer. 

I really hope that those involved in decision making use extreme caution in making rules that steer us away from folkstyle wrestling. Folkstyle in its true form is what is right for America. It has also served us well in freestyle wrestling. All of our levels of wrestling U17,U20, U23 and Olympics are all doing extremely well. 

[Paul158]

16 hours ago, jross said:

You have a valid point about the winner sitting on a lead.  However, the losing wrestler seems more inclined to attack since they likely will not escape their way to a tie.  Will fewer matches go to overtime?

Ohio State evidently didn't get the memo, get a takedown and sit on your lead. Their last 3 dual scores were 53 to 0. 49 to 0 and 51 to 0. The very young Buckeyes are looking really good. This weekend (CKLV)will be a really good test for them.

[ionel]

18 hours ago, russelscout said:

Score once and sit on a lead. This was already a problem and this makes it worse. This in no way guarantees that wrestlers will attack more frequently.
 

It’s not rocket science. 

Maybe rocket science ain't that hard anymore, after all SpaceX has been launching rockets and landing them back on the pad for years now.

I think the 3 encourages the aggressive wrestler to stay agreesive and go after a second 3 in which case end that first period at 6-1 (or 6-2) and now in range to go after the major. 

[russelscout]

39 minutes ago, ionel said:

Maybe rocket science ain't that hard anymore, after all SpaceX has been launching rockets and landing them back on the pad for years now.

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

Maybe rocket science ain't that hard anymore, after all SpaceX has been launching rockets and landing them back on the pad for years now.

I think the 3 encourages the aggressive wrestler to stay agreesive and go after a second 3 in which case end that first period at 6-1 (or 6-2) and now in range to go after the major. 

Saw this question on Facebook.    Stole it from whomever asked it  
 

in reference to the gabe Arnold match…….  Did the 3 point td rule influence Arnold’s decision not to take down in the third period?   Especially with a stall warning already.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by Caveira

[jross]

30 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Saw this question on Facebook.    Stole it from whomever asked it  
 

in reference to the gabe Arnold match…….  Did the 3 point td rule influence Arnold’s decision not to take down in the third period?   Especially with a stall warning already.  

Perhaps. 

It may have been enough to know he was winning the neutral position.  Known knowns strategy.  Or perhaps he scouted that Feldkamp is decent on top (many wins by falls and major).

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

Saw this question on Facebook.    Stole it from whomever asked it  
 

in reference to the gabe Arnold match…….  Did the 3 point td rule influence Arnold’s decision not to take down in the third period?   Especially with a stall warning already.  

I’m sure it did.  This was discussed on FRL.  I’m certain we will see less guys choosing bottom than in years past.

But on that note, I’ve been thinking about @russelscout’s position and while I acknowledge stalling to protect a lead is an issue, I really don’t think the 3 pt TD changes it much.   The only difference IMO is in the past assuming you went into the 2nd period up 2-1, you’d probably have to get an escape in order to implement that stalling strategy, and now you don’t.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Also from bottom, I wonder if the stats will show a dip in reversals this season. Escape + TD  (4) > Reversal + Ride (3) unless they're confident they can score backs.

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Also from bottom, I wonder if the stats will show a dip in reversals this season. Escape + TD  (4) > Reversal + Ride (3) unless they're confident they can score backs.

I doubt it changes the bottom guy’s strategy much IMO.  I think most guys aren’t necessarily “trying” for reversals, they kinda just happen based on the flow of the match.  I could see the old saying “1 not 2!” mostly going away though with some top guys maybe hanging on a little longer rather than giving up the 1.  Could result in some good scrambles

[boconnell]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:37 PM, russelscout said:

Score once and sit on a lead. This was already a problem and this makes it worse. This in no way guarantees that wrestlers will attack more frequently.
 

It’s not rocket science. 

I didn't say it's guaranteed to make guys attack more frequently.  

But making offensive attacks worth more than defensive attacks is absolutely not going to discourage offense.  

[boconnell]

On 11/26/2023 at 7:38 AM, wrestle87 said:

I’m guessing you are relatively new to wrestling if you do not remember an era of 1 point freestyle takedowns.  The entire point of the discussion is a change of rules which materially affects the nature of how matches are conducted and navigated.  Freestyle and Greco have undergone a litany of such changes in an effort to stay relevant or “entertaining” in the eyes of the IOC.

I remember 1 point FS takedowns well.  I don't get what former FS rules have to do with you proclaiming yourself a FS fan who doesn't like that Folkstyle TDs are worth a whole 1.5Xs more than Folkstyle TDs.  The problem (if it is one) is worse in FS.  

[boconnell]

6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’m sure it did.  This was discussed on FRL.  I’m certain we will see less guys choosing bottom than in years past.

But on that note, I’ve been thinking about @russelscout’s position and while I acknowledge stalling to protect a lead is an issue, I really don’t think the 3 pt TD changes it much.   The only difference IMO is in the past assuming you went into the 2nd period up 2-1, you’d probably have to get an escape in order to implement that stalling strategy, and now you don’t.

Yep.  Guys will absolutely stall with a lead no matter the rule set.  Rewarding offensive attacks more isn't going to make that worse.  It might make guys more aggressive in the first period.  I think largely it makes neutral wrestling more valuable, which doesn't really affect stalling either way.  

[russelscout]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

I didn't say it's guaranteed to make guys attack more frequently.  

But making offensive attacks worth more than defensive attacks is absolutely not going to discourage offense.  

What if someone scores a takedown off of the others offensive attack? It also makes offensive attacks more risky.

Edited November 28, 2023 by russelscout

[russelscout]

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Edited November 28, 2023 by russelscout