Reminder - mat side weigh ins are the way to go

[Dark Energy]

The transition will be a bit painful logistically, but I fully expect it would smooth out.  And then - the weight cutting aspect of the sport would be greatly reduced.  Less misery, more focus on actual wrestling.

[JVStateChamp]

1 hour ago, Dark Energy said:

The transition will be a bit painful logistically, but I fully expect it would smooth out.  And then - the weight cutting aspect of the sport would be greatly reduced.  Less misery, more focus on actual wrestling.

I don't see this happening at the college level anytime soon. The nightmare of running tournaments in a timely manner could be challenging. The other aspect to consider is that there may have to be a weight class realignment. I would like to see this happen at a high school off-season tournament to see how it actually plays out before implementing it full-time. I am definitely in the minority, but I do not see weight-cutting as a huge issue at the collegiate level. 

[Jason Bryant]

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Somebody must have had weight cutting issues.  

[ionel]

48 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

Do you think we could get Tom & Cael to try it in the PSU v Iowa dual?  Will they need to provide all fans with special glasses to wear, kind've like for the eclipsed?  

[1032004]

I think it will just turn into a competition (and as a result, potential safety issue) for which company can make the lightest shoes, headgear, etc.

Not to mention the safety issue of potentially wrestling dehydrated or hungry.   Yeah, I know the response will be “then don’t do it,” but you know guys will.     Agree with @JVStateChamp, particularly in NCAA D1, extreme weight cutting doesn’t seem to be a huge issue right now as a whole.

[jross]

1 hour ago, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

This sounds familiar for another question and now somehow we have 3-point takedowns.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Not a fan of this idea.  I think it creates some messes and is not as spectator friendly as some may think.

We just cut high school weight classes in many states, largely because of "too many forfeits."  Matside weigh-ins would increase the number of forfeits.

Some have even suggested weighing in for every round of a tournament or a quad.  This would be an absolute disaster with kids worried about every bite of feed or drop of water.  The number of kids making multiple weight checks per hour would be absurd.

I am also a guy who cut a ton of weight and did not let my son do it.  I am mostly opposed to weight cutting.  However stepping on a scale once per day is plenty.  I don't mind making it closer to match time (30 minutes?), but matside would be a mess.

[ionel]

20 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Not a fan of this idea.  I think it creates some messes and is not as spectator friendly as some may think.

We just cut high school weight classes in many states, largely because of "too many forfeits."  Matside weigh-ins would increase the number of forfeits.

Some have even suggested weighing in for every round of a tournament or a quad.  This would be an absolute disaster with kids worried about every bite of feed or drop of water.  The number of kids making multiple weight checks per hour would be absurd.

I am also a guy who cut a ton of weight and did not let my son do it.  I am mostly opposed to weight cutting.  However stepping on a scale once per day is plenty.  I don't mind making it closer to match time (30 minutes?), but matside would be a mess.

No one likes to talk about what happens if they miss by 0.1 lb.  Will there be a urinal matside, can they have 5 minutes to spit ...  This is why we should try it PSU v Iowa, they'll be plenty of fans who can weigh in on if they like it.  Wkn will be there selling matside weigh-in speeds. It'll be beautiful - MWGA!

Edited October 18, 2023 by ionel

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

No one likes to talk about what happens if they miss by 0.1 lb.  Will there be a urinal matside, can they have 5 minutes to spit ...  This is why we should try it PSU v Iowa, they'll be plenty of fans who can weigh in on if they like it.  Wkn will be there selling matside weigh-in speeds. It'll be beautiful - maga!

Actually all those activities (bathroom, spitting) are illegal during weigh-ins today! This is one definite positive of having everyone weigh in during one time period. (But your point is noted)

I'm more worried about a kid that has no problem making weight for the first match of a day  having one apple or gulp of gatorade too many.

 

[Tigerfan]

I discussed this with the Mizzou coaches and trainer about a decade ago. They were unanimously against it. The trainer (one of the best ever) assured me that almost every wrestler on the roster had at least 10% body fat at competition weight. Virtually no one competes at <7% as was common back in the day. And they were quick to point out Ben Askren, J’den Cox, and more recently now Keegan O’Toole were all highly successful while cutting minimal weight. Cox was actually forbidden from going higher than 206 at anytime during the season, and we all know he could drop 9 lbs of sweat in one workout without too much trouble. The potential problems did not outweigh the benefits or minimize any substantial risks. 
 

Youth and high school may be a different kettle of fish, however. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, Tigerfan said:

I discussed this with the Mizzou coaches and trainer about a decade ago. They were unanimously against it. The trainer (one of the best ever) assured me that almost every wrestler on the roster had at least 10% body fat at competition weight. Virtually no one competes at <7% as was common back in the day. And they were quick to point out Ben Askren, J’den Cox, and more recently now Keegan O’Toole were all highly successful while cutting minimal weight. Cox was actually forbidden from going higher than 206 at anytime during the season, and we all know he could drop 9 lbs of sweat in one workout without too much trouble. The potential problems did not outweigh the benefits or minimize any substantial risks. 
 

Youth and high school may be a different kettle of fish, however. 

Good info, thanks.

The body fat isn't the problem.  It's the water, but also dumb starvation diets.

[PencilNeck]

Matside weight ins are a good idea. For tournaments, you could have an allowance for subsequent rounds (1 pound for second round through semis, maybe an additional half to full pound for finals?).

People in power probably like the idea of cutting weight, so it will never happen though.

[JVStateChamp]

1 minute ago, PencilNeck said:

Matside weight ins are a good idea. For tournaments, you could have an allowance for subsequent rounds (1 pound for second round through semis, maybe an additional half to full pound for finals?).

People in power probably like the idea of cutting weight, so it will never happen though.

I do not see how this is beneficial for the wrestlers or especially the viewers. Weighing in 4 times in one day seems very extreme. No one wants to see a tournament decided because Wrestler A misses weight in the finals after making it 3 previous times. Another issue is that you are adding roughly 3 minutes per match. At the high school level, I think the idea of spending 10 hours in a gym on a Saturday is a real deterrent to participating in the sport. 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 minutes ago, PencilNeck said:

Matside weight ins are a good idea. For tournaments, you could have an allowance for subsequent rounds (1 pound for second round through semis, maybe an additional half to full pound for finals?).

People in power probably like the idea of cutting weight, so it will never happen though.

If you're having allowances for subsequent rounds, then why bother having matside weigh-ins?

[PencilNeck]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

If you're having allowances for subsequent rounds, then why bother having matside weigh-ins?

its just an idea to allow for fluctuations. Why is there allowance now in the first place? I'm also fine with it without the allowance, but we tend to weight our lightest of the day first thing in the morning, or after an intense workout. 

 

12 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

I do not see how this is beneficial for the wrestlers or especially the viewers. Weighing in 4 times in one day seems very extreme. No one wants to see a tournament decided because Wrestler A misses weight in the finals after making it 3 previous times. Another issue is that you are adding roughly 3 minutes per match. At the high school level, I think the idea of spending 10 hours in a gym on a Saturday is a real deterrent to participating in the sport. 

 

Make wrestlers carry extra ankle bands and put them on prior to getting to the mat. Boom, you just saved your theoretical 3 minutes.

 

I dont think there would me many more forfeits once people figured out how to plan for this. We already see medical forfeits in tourneys...maybe matside weight in would decrease those.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 minutes ago, PencilNeck said:

its just an idea to allow for fluctuations. 1) Why is there allowance now in the first place? I'm also fine with it without the allowance, but we tend to weight our lightest of the day first thing in the morning, or after an intense workout. 

 

2) Make wrestlers carry extra ankle bands and put them on prior to getting to the mat. Boom, you just saved your theoretical 3 minutes.

 

I dont think there would me many more forfeits once people figured out how to plan for this. 3)We already see medical forfeits in tourneys...maybe matside weight in would decrease those.

1) The purpose of matside weigh-ins would be largely to keep the athlete at their natural weight.  If wrestlers are allowed to gain 5 or more lbs. during a tournament, how is this the case?

2) Carrying ankle bands solves nothing.  Kids would lose these, or foregt to take them off for weigh-ins or whatever.  It would cause more time delays.

3) How would kids potentially missing weight decrease forfeits?

 

[JVStateChamp]

12 minutes ago, PencilNeck said:

Make wrestlers carry extra ankle bands and put them on prior to getting to the mat. Boom, you just saved your theoretical 3 minutes.

 

Besides ankle bands, Wrestlers still need to report to the head table and check in, then meet the ref at the scale that is mat-side then go to the center of the mat. Boom, that's where the extra time comes from. There is still time in between matches between check-in and getting the wrestlers to the center of the mat. Again, as I said at lower levels I agree that mat-side weigh-ins would be a great idea to help with retention/burnout. At the highest levels like D1 athletes, I do not see weight cutting being a huge issue, and is actually managed very well with 1-hour weigh-ins. I would be all for 30-minute weigh-ins if people are of the belief weight cutting is a huge issue in D1 wrestling. 

[nhs67]

4 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

When NCAA went up seven pounds each weight class, Michigan went and there were a lot of mat-side weigh-ins for many duals.  Never Individual, though.  I think asking them to potentially make weight five times (high school limit) and as many as six or eight times (in college) at an Individual tournament where their opponent might only be weighing in three or four times - depending on how they advanced in the tournament - is quite unfair.  Not for it.

[PencilNeck]

4 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

1) The purpose of matside weigh-ins would be largely to keep the athlete at their natural weight.  If wrestlers are allowed to gain 5 or more lbs. during a tournament, how is this the case?

2) Carrying ankle bands solves nothing.  Kids would lose these, or foregt to take them off for weigh-ins or whatever.  It would cause more time delays.

3) How would kids potentially missing weight decrease forfeits?

 

I was proposing 1 pound total until finals, not for each round. again, just an idea. skip the allowance alltogether if that's better

you could do weight ins while you are on deck, not necessarily immediatly prior to match

good athletes won't be missing weight, and if they do, they will learn to cut less. coaches and athletes would figure it out.

[PencilNeck]

5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

When NCAA went up seven pounds each weight class, Michigan went and there were a lot of mat-side weigh-ins for many duals.  Never Individual, though.  I think asking them to potentially make weight five times (high school limit) and as many as six or eight times (in college) at an Individual tournament where their opponent might only be weighing in three or four times - depending on how they advanced in the tournament - is quite unfair.  Not for it.

don't lose the first round of a tournament if you don't want to be making weight that many times. 

also, remember that now everyone is presumable wrestling at a more natural weight, so making weight shouldn't really be a chore at this point.

[davenowa]

there are still states that don't require hydration testing and body fat analysis to determine minimum weight classes (a physician can sign off on any weight class they want).  there are still states that allow additional weight allowances for mid-week matches (after school days), which is an improvement (I guess) from morning "honor" weigh-ins.  since the rule in HS sets a maximum time prior to competition, and not a minimum, nothing in the rules currently prevents a HS coach from stating that their weigh in will be immediately prior to the match starting (after warm ups, even after the anthem is played).  not quite matside, but close.  with some 2-day tournaments not doing 2nd day weigh ins (or granting greater allowances) and most top seeds getting byes or easy early matches (and often not for 3-4 hours after weighing in), there remains significant incentive to cut as much weight as possible, within the existing guidelines of your state.  until you get finalists to agree to just step on a scale for curiosity sake, it will remain anecdotal evidence of one kid weighing 12-15 pounds more than his opponent.

matside weigh in would self govern excessive weight loss.  it would not increase overall time of a dual (would actually save a school money, since the bus need not arrive 75 minutes before start time).  we already weigh in wearing singlets, so simply add 1-2 pounds for shoes to all weight classes...and allow the needed 10-15 seconds to put on a headgear after getting off the scale and heading onto the mat.  as noted, a plan for tournaments could include alternate round weigh-ins with additional weight granted, such that a finalist could gain 2-4 pounds...but not 8-12.

I know I am in the minority here, but would also prefer, in conjunction with matside, locked line-ups for duals and greater value awarded for forfeits.  as with most proposals, if you allow ONLY coaches to provide the guidance, nothing will ever change.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, PencilNeck said:

I was proposing 1 pound total until finals, not for each round. again, just an idea. skip the allowance alltogether if that's better

you could do weight ins while you are on deck, not necessarily immediatly prior to match

good athletes won't be missing weight, and if they do, they will learn to cut less. coaches and athletes would figure it out.

Who is weighing the athletes in while they are on deck?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 minutes ago, davenowa said:

there are still states that don't require hydration testing and body fat analysis to determine minimum weight classes (a physician can sign off on any weight class they want).  there are still states that allow additional weight allowances for mid-week matches (after school days), which is an improvement (I guess) from morning "honor" weigh-ins.  since the rule in HS sets a maximum time prior to competition, and not a minimum, nothing in the rules currently prevents a HS coach from stating that their weigh in will be immediately prior to the match starting (after warm ups, even after the anthem is played).  not quite matside, but close.  with some 2-day tournaments not doing 2nd day weigh ins (or granting greater allowances) and most top seeds getting byes or easy early matches (and often not for 3-4 hours after weighing in), there remains significant incentive to cut as much weight as possible, within the existing guidelines of your state.  until you get finalists to agree to just step on a scale for curiosity sake, it will remain anecdotal evidence of one kid weighing 12-15 pounds more than his opponent.

matside weigh in would self govern excessive weight loss.  it would not increase overall time of a dual (would actually save a school money, since the bus need not arrive 75 minutes before start time).  we already weigh in wearing singlets, so simply add 1-2 pounds for shoes to all weight classes...and allow the needed 10-15 seconds to put on a headgear after getting off the scale and heading onto the mat.

Which states allow such barbaric weigh-in practices as mentioned in the first paragraph?

And there would be no need to add weight for shoes.  Kids weigh what they weigh.  I remember coaches saying we should add weight for underwear and later singlets when they were first required.  It worked out fine.

[PencilNeck]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Who is weighing the athletes in while they are on deck?