Israel Attacked

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:26 PM, Offthemat said:

The stakes were set early on.  If you are shielding, or being used as a shield for Hamas, then you are not safe. 

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That's a war crime

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:27 PM, Bigbrog said:

What do you say about war being a terrible thing, one of the reasons it is there are innocent civilians' deaths?  What do you say about a terrorist organization constantly bombing a country that escalates into a war?

It's free country so you can keep spewing the crap you do about Israel on here, and you can go on supporting a terrorist organization, and you can try and rationalize it all you want in your little head that you aren't doing that but you are and you are a terrible human for doing so.

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Only one of us isn't condemning the murder of innocent civilians. It's not me.

[uncle bernard]

@Bigbrog and @Offthemat are using Bin Laden's justification for 9/11. There is no such thing as an innocent US civilian. There is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian. 

 

[Bigbrog]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:32 PM, uncle bernard said:

@Bigbrog and @Offthemat are using Bin Laden's justification for 9/11. There is no such thing as an innocent US civilian. There is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian. 

 

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WTF?!?!  I am done responding to you...typical idiot internet key board warrior that feels they can anonymously sit behind a screen in their parents basement and say the most outlandish idiotic things without repercussion.  Get a freaking life.

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:35 PM, Bigbrog said:

WTF?!?!  I am done responding to you...typical idiot internet key board warrior that feels they can anonymously sit behind a screen in their parents basement and say the most outlandish idiotic things without repercussion.  Get a freaking life.

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You've shown no concern for innocent Palestinian deaths. Israel has already killed far more Palestinians than Israeli's were killed on 10/7. How many need to die before you think it's enough? Give me a number.

I would say this to your face btw.

Edited October 27, 2023 by uncle bernard

[Plasmodium]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:32 PM, uncle bernard said:

@Bigbrog and @Offthemat are uyou threessing Bin Laden's justification for 9/11. There is no such thing as an innocent US civilian. There is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian. 

 

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I am not following your conversation with them, so I am not speaking to that.  Remove their names. 

We  can substitute a lot of governments and millions of people there and it is truth.    Unfortunately, that works the other way as well. Tragically, we recently saw the latter play out and are seeing former play out now.

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:45 PM, Plasmodium said:

I am not following your conversation with them, so I am not speaking to that.  Remove their names. 

We  can substitute a lot of governments and millions of people there and it is truth.    Unfortunately, that works the other way as well. Tragically, we recently saw the latter play out and are seeing former play out now.

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I can admit it was a cheap shot. I can't edit the post.

But those two have repeatedly accused me and others of "supporting Hamas" in this thread. I gave them a taste of their own medicine and they don't like it.

[Offthemat]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:29 PM, uncle bernard said:

That's a war crime

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That’s war.  Tokyo fire bombing, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, Sherman through the South.  What’s happening in Ukraine and Russia.  Chinese fentanyl in this country. 

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 4:02 PM, Offthemat said:

That’s war.  Tokyo fire bombing, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, Sherman through the South.  What’s happening in Ukraine and Russia.  Chinese fentanyl in this country. 

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You're describing more war crimes. You are not allowed by collectively punish. We signed the Geneva Conventions. 

You don't get to be pro-war crimes and maintain the moral high ground on here

[Offthemat]

  On 10/27/2023 at 4:04 PM, uncle bernard said:

You're describing more war crimes. You are not allowed by collectively punish. We signed the Geneva Conventions. 

You don't get to be pro-war crimes and maintain the moral high ground on here

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Using human shields is the war crime in Gaza.  Killing innocents is being avoided as best as possible while maintaining the mission of eliminating Hamas.  Hamas is deadly to innocent Palestinians, themselves. 

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 4:27 PM, Offthemat said:

Using human shields is the war crime in Gaza.  Killing innocents is being avoided as best as possible while maintaining the mission of eliminating Hamas.  Hamas is deadly to innocent Palestinians, themselves. 

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Killing human shields is a war crime. You can't just bomb civilian housing and shelter because you think Hamas *might* be there too. 

[mspart]

  On 10/27/2023 at 3:29 PM, uncle bernard said:

That's a war crime

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Using human shields is the MO of Hamas, and you say that is a war crime.   Then why does a legitimate freedom fighter group like Hamas do this?  Because they perpetrate war crimes as was displayed on 10/7. 

mspart

[mspart]

  On 10/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, uncle bernard said:

Killing human shields is a war crime. You can't just bomb civilian housing and shelter because you think Hamas *might* be there too. 

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Hence Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to get out of the parts of the city that are going to be attacked.   If Hamas prevents the movement, which they have done, then who is perpetrating the war crime? 

mspart

[jross]

  On 10/27/2023 at 5:07 PM, mspart said:

Hence Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to get out of the parts of the city that are going to be attacked.   If Hamas prevents the movement, which they have done, then who is perpetrating the war crime? 

mspart

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The lesser of two war crimes is still a war crime.

[mspart]

So let me get this straight.   If you kill civilians, that is a war crime?   Which war has been fought in the last 100 years that has not resulted in civilian deaths?   Civilian death and property destruction is the main consequence of modern war.  

Israel is not targeting civilians.   There is no other armed force that I know of that tries to avoid civilian deaths like the IDF.   Perhaps US troops do similar.  Certainly not Russian troops.   So when Israel attacks, they have warned everyone what they are going to do.   If civilians are present, they either were prevented from leaving or they are not really civilians.  

I see this as Israel having done their due diligence to prevent civilian deaths.  Please show where Hamas has ever taken this tactic with regard to Israeli civilians.   This is just one way to differentiate the tactics used and the intent of the two sides here.  

In my opinion, Hamas did not go to all out war, they went as far as to initiate an initial skirmish with civilians, not against armed forces.   That is a war crime.    Mowing down 270 youth at a music/dance get together is a crime, not just a war crime.  Burning alive civilians in their houses is a crime, not just a war crime.  

What did they think would be the response from Israel?   Did they think that Israel would roll over?   I don't think so.   I think they knew the response would be punishing and swift.   I think the calculus was that other entities would come to help the fight.   Hezbollah is certainly answering that call in a small way.   But they were roundly condemned for their brutal and inhuman actions.   And now Israel is prepared to take out Hamas as an entity.   Is there a reason not to?   Hamas' attacks have been constant over the years from Gaza.   They had a sort of truce going on and apparently we and Israel relaxed about any violence.   Then came 10/7.  Israel is understandably incensed and their intent to eliminate Hamas now is also understandable. 

If Israel wanted to destroy civilians in Gaza, why have they historically provided, food, energy and fuel to Gaza?  

If Gazans and Hamas disarmed, what would be the result?   Peace. 

If Israel disarmed, what would be the result?  Annihilation.   

This again shows the disparate intent of the two. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 5:29 PM, mspart said:

So let me get this straight.   If you kill civilians, that is a war crime?   Which war has been fought in the last 100 years that has not resulted in civilian deaths?   Civilian death and property destruction is the main consequence of modern war.  

Israel is not targeting civilians.   There is no other armed force that I know of that tries to avoid civilian deaths like the IDF.   Perhaps US troops do similar.  Certainly not Russian troops.   So when Israel attacks, they have warned everyone what they are going to do.   If civilians are present, they either were prevented from leaving or they are not really civilians.  

I see this as Israel having done their due diligence to prevent civilian deaths.  Please show where Hamas has ever taken this tactic with regard to Israeli civilians.   This is just one way to differentiate the tactics used and the intent of the two sides here.  

In my opinion, Hamas did not go to all out war, they went as far as to initiate an initial skirmish with civilians, not against armed forces.   That is a war crime.    Mowing down 270 youth at a music/dance get together is a crime, not just a war crime.  Burning alive civilians in their houses is a crime, not just a war crime.  

What did they think would be the response from Israel?   Did they think that Israel would roll over?   I don't think so.   I think they knew the response would be punishing and swift.   I think the calculus was that other entities would come to help the fight.   Hezbollah is certainly answering that call in a small way.   But they were roundly condemned for their brutal and inhuman actions.   And now Israel is prepared to take out Hamas as an entity.   Is there a reason not to?   Hamas' attacks have been constant over the years from Gaza.   They had a sort of truce going on and apparently we and Israel relaxed about any violence.   Then came 10/7.  Israel is understandably incensed and their intent to eliminate Hamas now is also understandable. 

If Israel wanted to destroy civilians in Gaza, why have they historically provided, food, energy and fuel to Gaza?  

If Gazans and Hamas disarmed, what would be the result?   Peace. 

If Israel disarmed, what would be the result?  Annihilation.   

This again shows the disparate intent of the two. 

mspart

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Yeah, Israel keeps "accidentally" killing 20x the amount of civilians Hamas does.

[Offthemat]

  On 10/27/2023 at 5:42 PM, uncle bernard said:

Yeah, Israel keeps "accidentally" killing 20x the amount of civilians Hamas does.

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You say you denounce Hamas, yet you continue to run interference for them.  One reason fewer Israeli civilians are killed is because the IDF protects them and doesn’t hide because them.  If there is a crime involving human shields, the crime is committed by hamas. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Offthemat

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 5:57 PM, Offthemat said:

You say you denounce Hamas, yet you continue to run interference for them.  One reason fewer Israeli civilians are killed is because the IDF protects them and doesn’t hide because them.  If there is a crime involving human shields, the crime is committed by hamas. 

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yeah, i'm running interference for hamas on intermatwrestle.com. get real buddy

[jross]

Hamas is committing war crimes by using Palestine citizens as human shields.  People are debating whether Israel is taking all feasible precautions to minimize harm to civilians.  To me, the military advantage gained from attacks is not in proportion to the amount of civilian deaths.  Israel is "innocent" because the USA backs them, and the standard of 'feasible precaution' is subjective.  I'm not picking on Israel for any ideological reason.  A war crime is inevitable in war.  

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/#:~:text=As Israeli forces continue to,be investigated as war crimes.

[uncle bernard]

Meanwhile, Israel is declaring its intention to bomb Gaza's largest hospital where an estimated 50,000 Palestinians are sheltering. They *think* Hamas is operating beneath the hospital.

Praying they don't strike the hospital. 

[Offthemat]

  On 10/27/2023 at 6:39 PM, uncle bernard said:

Meanwhile, Israel is declaring its intention to bomb Gaza's largest hospital where an estimated 50,000 Palestinians are sheltering. They *think* Hamas is operating beneath the hospital.

Praying they don't strike the hospital. 

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Is Hamas firing rockets from the hospital again?

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 7:10 PM, Offthemat said:

Is Hamas firing rockets from the hospital again?

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you can't even keep your propaganda straight lol

[Offthemat]

  On 10/27/2023 at 7:37 PM, uncle bernard said:

you can't even keep your propaganda straight lol

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I have no propaganda.  I asked you a simple question. 

[uncle bernard]

  On 10/27/2023 at 8:13 PM, Offthemat said:

I have no propaganda.  I asked you a simple question. 

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no they aren’t. and nobody was firing rockets from the other hospital either. 

[Offthemat]