Israel Attacked

[mspart]

9 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

What's your ideal endpoint for this situation? Mine is for Palestinians and Israelis to share the land peacefully, like they've done in the past.

What do you want to happen?

Oct 7 is a classic example of why they cannot share the land peacefully.   All the intifadas are other examples.   Hamas does not want peace.   They have said so very clearly in media.  As long as Israel exists, Hamas will fight against them.     Yes they are bad guys as you say.   Very bad guys.   So Israel feels the need to destroy them.  

What you want is peace through appeasement.   It worked so well for Chamberlain and Europe now didn't it.   You want peace and that means no more Israelis in Israel.   Then there would be peace.  Golda had it right.  

If the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be a massacre.    

It is that simple of an equation.   The PLO, and now Hamas have made this their MO.   They don't want peace, they want Israel gone and all Israelis dead.   You can't appease them without weakening your position.   This is why Hamas is being annihilated.   They have had 20 years or so to describe peace.   They have done it with rockets and incursions.   But this last incursion was too much, too brutal, too costly in human terms.   Hamas is doing what they have always done - attack and then expect the international community to prevail upon Israel to lighten up.  Israel is not caving to that this time.   They are preventing unneeded civilian death.   They went into shifa hospital and did not shoot up the place.   They offered fuel to keep the hospital running and it was rejected.   Hamas wants death and destruction on either side, they don't care.   Israeli death and destruction is good, because it gets rid of some of them at least.   Gazan death and destruction is good because it brings out the warrior spirit in the Palestinians.   Israel does more to keep Palestinians alive than Hamas does by Hamas' own admission.  

You want peace?   Quit belly aching, let IDF eliminate Hamas, and there might be a chance. 

mspart

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, mspart said:

Oct 7 is a classic example of why they cannot share the land peacefully.   All the intifadas are other examples.   Hamas does not want peace.   They have said so very clearly in media.  As long as Israel exists, Hamas will fight against them.     Yes they are bad guys as you say.   Very bad guys.   So Israel feels the need to destroy them.  

What you want is peace through appeasement.   It worked so well for Chamberlain and Europe now didn't it.   You want peace and that means no more Israelis in Israel.   Then there would be peace.  Golda had it right.  

If the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be a massacre.    

It is that simple of an equation.   The PLO, and now Hamas have made this their MO.   They don't want peace, they want Israel gone and all Israelis dead.   You can't appease them without weakening your position.   This is why Hamas is being annihilated.   They have had 20 years or so to describe peace.   They have done it with rockets and incursions.   But this last incursion was too much, too brutal, too costly in human terms.   Hamas is doing what they have always done - attack and then expect the international community to prevail upon Israel to lighten up.  Israel is not caving to that this time.   They are preventing unneeded civilian death.   They went into shifa hospital and did not shoot up the place.   They offered fuel to keep the hospital running and it was rejected.   Hamas wants death and destruction on either side, they don't care.   Israeli death and destruction is good, because it gets rid of some of them at least.   Gazan death and destruction is good because it brings out the warrior spirit in the Palestinians.   Israel does more to keep Palestinians alive than Hamas does by Hamas' own admission.  

You want peace?   Quit belly aching, let IDF eliminate Hamas, and there might be a chance. 

mspart

This isn't going to happen. That's the problem. Killing thousands of innocent civilians to kill a few Hamas fighters only strengthens Hamas' position. There is no indication that Israel is capable of eliminating Hamas. 

Nobody is arguing that Hamas is good. The best way to "eliminate" them is to undercut their reason for being. Show the Palestinians that a political, nonviolent solution is possible. Otherwise, we're going to keep doing this until the Israeli's kill all the Palestinians.

[Plasmodium]

The Israelis are in the driver seat of any negotiation.  Obviously Netanyahu is opposed to a two state solution, so they seem committed to indefinite low level hostilities, which will fundamentally include terrorism.  Their long term plan must be slowly absorbing the West Bank with seizures followed by settlements while Gaza morphs into a forgotten wasteland.  Hard to stomach watching and thinking about it.  Soon we will be forced into rethinking the nature of our support for Israel.

[mspart]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

This isn't going to happen. That's the problem.

Yes, this is the problem.  It is quite polarizing apparently.   Is there any evidence that a two state solution would bring peace?   There is not.   Therefore, this is the problem.  

Why is Gaza so poor?   Doesn't Gaza get billions in aid every year?   Yet they still depend on Israel for fuel and electricity.   Now if Israel really wanted to eliminate them,  they would cut them off completely.   They don't do that do they?  Don't poke the bear is a good proverb for the Palestinians.   They poke, they get bit.   And everyone complains when the bear finally bites. 

mspart

[Offthemat]

This is how it’s done, UB:

 

[Offthemat]

 

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, mspart said:

Yes, this is the problem.  It is quite polarizing apparently.   Is there any evidence that a two state solution would bring peace?   There is not.   Therefore, this is the problem.  

Why is Gaza so poor?   Doesn't Gaza get billions in aid every year?   Yet they still depend on Israel for fuel and electricity.   Now if Israel really wanted to eliminate them,  they would cut them off completely.   They don't do that do they?  Don't poke the bear is a good proverb for the Palestinians.   They poke, they get bit.   And everyone complains when the bear finally bites. 

mspart

Gaza's economy is controlled by Israel. This is the dumbest criticism ever. Israel controls everything that legally flows into Gaza and greatly restricts it.

[uncle bernard]

3 hours ago, Offthemat said:

 

Yeah, Hamas was definitely hiding its guns in the room with the giant magnet that would destroy them.

If this is all they found, you should be ashamed. This is not a command center like they claimed when they broke international law to bomb it. The raid has been a total bust for the Israelis.

Western medical workers have been screaming that this command center thing was a lie and nobody listened.

[uncle bernard]

17 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The Israelis are in the driver seat of any negotiation.  Obviously Netanyahu is opposed to a two state solution, so they seem committed to indefinite low level hostilities, which will fundamentally include terrorism.  Their long term plan must be slowly absorbing the West Bank with seizures followed by settlements while Gaza morphs into a forgotten wasteland.  Hard to stomach watching and thinking about it.  Soon we will be forced into rethinking the nature of our support for Israel.

The problem with this last line is the clowns on here think that's all a good thing.

Spot on though.

[Plasmodium]

9 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Gaza's economy is controlled by Israel. This is the dumbest criticism ever. Israel controls everything that legally flows into Gaza and greatly restricts it.

But they don't pay for it, including fuel and electricity.

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, mspart said:

Yes, this is the problem.  It is quite polarizing apparently.   Is there any evidence that a two state solution would bring peace?   There is not.   Therefore, this is the problem.  

Why is Gaza so poor?   Doesn't Gaza get billions in aid every year?   Yet they still depend on Israel for fuel and electricity.   Now if Israel really wanted to eliminate them,  they would cut them off completely.   They don't do that do they?  Don't poke the bear is a good proverb for the Palestinians.   They poke, they get bit.   And everyone complains when the bear finally bites. 

mspart

The only reason they don't is because they're afraid of losing the Western support they depend on entirely. Doing so would be genocide. Right now they can dance on the line and say they aren't and it keeps the pressure on their allies low enough to be tolerable.

As @Plasmodium says, they're playing the long game for the land. Slowly seizing village after village in the West Bank, neighborhood after neighborhood in Jerusalem (they just took out a section of the Armenian quarter the last few days), and finally, slowly choking the life out of Gaza until the people leave, die, or fight back hard enough to justify total elimination in the eyes of the western world.

The ridiculous thing about you guys pretending this isn't about ethnic cleansing is that Israeli's are pretty open about it. The Knesset is filled with people who call for ethnic cleansing. The IDF protects illegal settlers who commit acts of violence to seize land in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The political messaging by the Israeli government is totally different in Hebrew than their English propaganda for Western audiences.

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Yeah, Hamas was definitely hiding its guns in the room with the giant magnet that would destroy them.

If this is all they found, you should be ashamed. This is not a command center like they claimed when they broke international law to bomb it. The raid has been a total bust for the Israelis.

Western medical workers have been screaming that this command center thing was a lie and nobody listened.

You are wrong:

The hospital is still standing and operating, not bombed. 
When you visit the hospital, how many AKs do you see?  The ones shown are the ones left behind after the terrorists fled carrying what they could with them.  One constitutes a war crime. 
Your giant magnet theory is overblown; i once forgot and wore my watch in an MRI, it vibrated a little and lost a little time but I’m wearing it now.

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Gaza's economy is controlled by Israel. This is the dumbest criticism ever. Israel controls everything that legally flows into Gaza and greatly restricts it.

They should have controlled the arms and ammunition instead of the donuts and watermelons, huh?

 You just keep in mind that no matter how much you apologize for them, they'd happily  slice and burn you alive.  On video. 

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, Offthemat said:

You are wrong:

The hospital is still standing and operating, not bombed. 
When you visit the hospital, how many AKs do you see?  The ones shown are the ones left behind after the terrorists fled carrying what they could with them.  One constitutes a war crime. 
Your giant magnet theory is overblown; i once forgot and wore my watch in an MRI, it vibrated a little and lost a little time but I’m wearing it now.

They should have controlled the arms and ammunition instead of the donuts and watermelons, huh?

 You just keep in mind that no matter how much you apologize for them, they'd happily  slice and burn you alive.  On video. 

This is not up for debate. The hospital was bombed many times. Israel admits this. Their justification was it was a Hamas command center. They have yet to show evidence of that.

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

This is not up for debate. The hospital was bombed many times. Israel admits this. Their justification was it was a Hamas command center. They have yet to show evidence of that.

No, Israel does not admit bombing the hospital, Hamas is lying.  Israel has raided it and found evidence that Hamas was indeed using it as a safe harbor.  A war crime. 

[uncle bernard]

18 hours ago, Offthemat said:

No, Israel does not admit bombing the hospital, Hamas is lying.  Israel has raided it and found evidence that Hamas was indeed using it as a safe harbor.  A war crime. 

It is not disputed that Israel has been striking the hospital leading up to the raid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-al-shifa-hospital.html

As for your evidence:

and this doesn’t even mention the “hamas laptop” they showed had a hebrew keyboard with an israeli soldier as the screensaver. 

[uncle bernard]

 

[uncle bernard]

Perfect excuse for them to start bombing all the civilians they sent to the south. 

 

[uncle bernard]

great segment on some of the lunatics driving israel’s internal politics. 

 

[uncle bernard]

as we learn more about 10/7 it’s clear what an utter failure the IDF was in defense of its citizens. Not only were they unprepared, but they likely killed many of their own people. this is a consequence of concentrating your military in the west bank as an occupying police force. they totally underestimated hamas and their civilians paid dearly.

 

 

[Husker_Du]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:54 PM, uncle bernard said:

illing thousands of innocent civilians to kill a few Hamas fighters only strengthens Hamas' position. There is no indication that Israel is capable of eliminating Hamas. 

 The best way to "eliminate" them is to undercut their reason for being. 

This is obviously a sensitive subject, and i'm not trying to be a dick or minimize the the casualties,

but perhaps the massive response from Israel will convince the citizens to not elect Hamas leaders, who got them in this mess. 

thus 'eliminating their reason for being'.

 

[uncle bernard]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

This is obviously a sensitive subject, and i'm not trying to be a dick or minimize the the casualties,

but perhaps the massive response from Israel will convince the citizens to not elect Hamas leaders, who got them in this mess. 

thus 'eliminating their reason for being'.

 

that would require an election. the last one was in 2006. the majority of palestinians were either not born or toddlers. hamas won with 44% of the vote in a huge upset. 

following the 2006 election there was a break and fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Hamas took total control of the Gaza government and have not held elections since.

 

 

[Plasmodium]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

that would require an election. the last one was in 2006. the majority of palestinians were either not born or toddlers. hamas won with 44% of the vote in a huge upset. 

following the 2006 election there was a break and fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Hamas took total control of the Gaza government and have not held elections since.

 

 

Also worth noting Fatah Is not capable of enforcing any Palestinian law - election or otherwise - in Gaza and Netanyahu wants it that way.

[Offthemat]

2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Also worth noting Fatah Is not capable of enforcing any Palestinian law - election or otherwise - in Gaza and Netanyahu wants it that way.

The Israelis have made it clear that they will be enforcing the law in Gaza for the foreseeable future.  Notwithstanding Biden’s, or anybody else’s opinion.  

[Offthemat]