HS Team State Championship Formats

[davenowa]

Just wondering if there are any states that determine team state champs with some type of hybrid, combining results from a dual meet tourney with ordinal placement in an individually bracketed tournament?  I know that many conferences within various states utilize something similar to determine conference champs, but I am unaware of any states that utilize a hybrid model for state title purposes.  While some states may offer state team champ designations for both a dual tourney AND the team scores from an individually bracketed event, some states can't, as they do not permit crowning multiple team "state champions" in the same sport.  I was considering using "low score wins", with ordinal placement of the individually bracketed tourney being combined with the ordinal place from dual championship (counting places 1-4 as 1-2-3-4 and assigning all others a "5" such that a team could still contend for a state team championship even if they did not place top 4 in dual scenario...although would be tough).

Not sure how to handle ties, especially in the 1-2-3, 3-2-1 scenario where team A wins duals and places 3rd at trny, team B wins trny but was 3rd at duals and team C is 2nd at both.

My goal is to hopefully increase the importance of dual meets, for the multitude of reasons that have been discussed in the past. Thanks.

[SetonHallPirate]

11 hours ago, davenowa said:

Just wondering if there are any states that determine team state champs with some type of hybrid, combining results from a dual meet tourney with ordinal placement in an individually bracketed tournament?  I know that many conferences within various states utilize something similar to determine conference champs, but I am unaware of any states that utilize a hybrid model for state title purposes.  While some states may offer state team champ designations for both a dual tourney AND the team scores from an individually bracketed event, some states can't, as they do not permit crowning multiple team "state champions" in the same sport.  I was considering using "low score wins", with ordinal placement of the individually bracketed tourney being combined with the ordinal place from dual championship (counting places 1-4 as 1-2-3-4 and assigning all others a "5" such that a team could still contend for a state team championship even if they did not place top 4 in dual scenario...although would be tough).

Not sure how to handle ties, especially in the 1-2-3, 3-2-1 scenario where team A wins duals and places 3rd at trny, team B wins trny but was 3rd at duals and team C is 2nd at both.

My goal is to hopefully increase the importance of dual meets, for the multitude of reasons that have been discussed in the past. Thanks.

Well, Wisconsin (to use one example) has their teams compete in a tournament for regionals, where the winners of each regional advance to sectionals and (eventually) state, which is wrestled in a dual format.

[TNwrestling]

15 hours ago, SetonHallPirate said:

Well, Wisconsin (to use one example) has their teams compete in a tournament for regionals, where the winners of each regional advance to sectionals and (eventually) state, which is wrestled in a dual format.

Tennessee uses this format as well. 

[Formally140]

Illinois isn’t as smart as TN or GA and doesn’t keep team points at state. Only duals. It’s annoying

[nick]

Indiana does a duals tournament put on by the coaches association, it's classed (1A-4A) and there is a qualification formula along with bid in spots. In addition, the state keeps track during the state finals (no class) of team score and awards a team champion from that

[stealyphil223]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:25 PM, SetonHallPirate said:

Well, Wisconsin (to use one example) has their teams compete in a tournament for regionals, where the winners of each regional advance to sectionals and (eventually) state, which is wrestled in a dual format.

Actually top two advance from regionals and there are four teams that dual at team sectionals in Wisconsin.  

[SetonHallPirate]

2 hours ago, stealyphil223 said:

Actually top two advance from regionals and there are four teams that dual at team sectionals in Wisconsin.  

That must be a relatively new change...(last couple of years or so)

[nhs67]

Michigan has four (4) divisions equally separated by enrollment (1-4).  As you can expect, Division 1 is quite deeper than Division 2, which is deeper than Division 3, which is deeper than Division 4.

It typically runs like this for the postseason.

Week 1 Saturday - Individual Conferences

Week 2 Wed/Thur - Team Districts (3 or 4 teams per), Random draw for the bye, where applicable with one team advancing

Week 2 Saturday - Individual Districts (Top 4 Advance)

Week 3 Wed/Thur - Team Regionals (4 District champs per), Random as to who faces who in the first 'round' with one team advancing to the team finals

Week 3 Saturday - Indidivudal Regionals (Top 4 from two districts are placed in to an eight man double elimination), top 4 advance to Individual States

Week 4 Friday/Saturday - Team States (Seeded 1-8 based in in-season results... there is a criteria used, which includes duals against other teams who qualified in other divisions as well).  Round one for each division is Friday with the semi-finals and finals on Saturday.  Four States Champions each year.

Week 5 Thursday/Friday/Saturday - Individual States (Regional Champs are seeded 1-4 then split in the brackets appropriately - per weight to separate 1/2/3/4 placers from each region as well).  Place up to 8 per weight per division.

Examples of past/current D1 wrestlers/teams - Davison, Detroit Catholic Central (Facundo, Amine, Gilcher, Yatooma)
Examples of past/current D2 wrestlers/teams - Lowell, St. Johns (Dean, Massa)
Examples of past/current D3 wrestlers/teams - Dundee, Richmond (Davis, Skatzka)
Examples of past/current D4 wrestlers/teams - Hesperia, Hudson (Zeerip, Hamdan)

[RandolphTJones]

Ohio has a team state dual championship that I think they do al in one weekend? (top 8 teams in each division, bracket style). This has been going on now for 7-8 years. Right after this is when they jump into sectional, district, state. 

[Jason Bryant]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:03 AM, RandolphTJones said:

Ohio has a team state dual championship that I think they do al in one weekend? (top 8 teams in each division, bracket style). This has been going on now for 7-8 years. Right after this is when they jump into sectional, district, state. 

I just looked at this, the OHSAA did away with sanctioning the state duals after 2020, so now it appears it's run by the state coaches association. The state sponsored it from 2013-2020. 

(I'm in a deep dive right now digging on all historic state championships and came across Ohio's duals about 30 minutes ago)

 

[Ban Basketball]

Does the Iowa state tournament still not seed the rasslers?

I always found that annoying. 

[Ban Basketball]

Looks like Iowa does now seed its state tournament. 

[Formally140]

On 10/12/2023 at 2:13 PM, Jason Bryant said:

I just looked at this, the OHSAA did away with sanctioning the state duals after 2020, so now it appears it's run by the state coaches association. The state sponsored it from 2013-2020. 

(I'm in a deep dive right now digging on all historic state championships and came across Ohio's duals about 30 minutes ago)

 

There was a whole controversy because a team apparently either didn’t show up or put in its backups to (allegedly) try to avoid giving St Ed’s too many matches with their kids

[RandolphTJones]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:13 PM, Jason Bryant said:

I just looked at this, the OHSAA did away with sanctioning the state duals after 2020, so now it appears it's run by the state coaches association. The state sponsored it from 2013-2020. 

(I'm in a deep dive right now digging on all historic state championships and came across Ohio's duals about 30 minutes ago)

 

The state duals are always my favorite to watch. Saint Ed's has been hosting (Probably since 2020) and the atmosphere has always been pretty awesome. 

[MPhillips]

COVID cancelled in 2020. Dropped by OHSAA, picked up by the coaches OHSWCA in 2021.  STED has hosted the DI State Duals since then.

[Husker_Du]

i think Indiana does the same thing as Ohio.

i.e.  - i think the Coaches Association holds state duals. 

[nick]

22 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i think Indiana does the same thing as Ohio.

i.e.  - i think the Coaches Association holds state duals. 

Yea, the IHSWCA holds the duals, it's a dual tournament for each class (1A-4A)... This document is a bit old but explains most of it

 

[Snoqualmie18]

First time posting in a while so new log-on.  In North Carolina, we have 4 public school classes (1A to 4A).  Each have about 100 schools, with the 1A having about 50 schools that sponsor wrestling.  These 100 schools are divided into conferences based on location and class.  They are also revisited every 4 years. For the dual state tournament, conferences are allocated into either the East or West region.  Each region probably has about 8 or 9 conferences and qualifies 16 schools based on conference place and they may take a ‘wild card’ or 2 based on power points.  Larger conferences qualify 2 teams while smaller or split (between 3A/4A in the east or mountains) conferences qualify 1.  The first 2 rounds are held on a Tuesday and the region semis and final are held on a Thursday.  The dual state final between East and West for all classes is held on Saturday.  Recently, they’ve been held in Greensboro with 2 matches in 1 session followed by a proceeding session for the other 2 class finals.

The following weekend is individual regions.  For individual regions, we have 4 regions for each class (E/ME/MW/W) split evenly based solely on longitude.  Therefore a couple of teams in the same conference in the middle of the state may wrestle in the west for dual states, but the ME for individual regionals (or vice versa).  This happened to my kids’ school when we were down in 3A.  For regions, they take the top 16 based on prestige points (winning percentage combined with last year’s region/state advancement).  The top 4 individuals qualify for individual states with team scores being tabulated to crown a regional champion.  For the 1A, there are 2 regions (E/W) and they take the top 4 to states.  2A and 1A used to be combined, but that changed about 13 years ago.

At states, they use a formula to create the 16-wrestler bracket (1E vs. 4MW, with winner wrestling winner of 2W vs. 3 ME, etc.).  There is no seeding and the 2 best region champs may meet in semis as opposed to the finals.  Team scores are also tabulated to crown a state champion from this tournament as well.

Like mentioned before, we revisit our classes every 4 years and recently they did something different.  80% of the class calculation is based on enrollment while 10% is based on ISP (identified student population) which represents the % of kids who receive free and reduced lunch while another 10% of the calculation is based on previous years’ state cup points (running total of athletic success over previous 4 years).  Our school is in a bit more affluent area and had success from 2017 to 2021 with state championships in dual wrestling, baseball and girls basketball, so we bumped up from 3A to 4A and are one of the smallest 4A schools in the state.   There are actually more than a dozen 3A schools that have a higher enrollment than us.  We have come back to earth in our new class across most sports, so we may be going back down to 3A in 2025.  For dual wrestling, we are now in the conference with a perennial state power (they won dual states this year and lost in the final last year), so 7 teams are battling for that 1 remaining dual spot.  Depending upon the time of year when they wrestle conference matches (overlap with 6-week football playoffs, holidays, etc.), it is a real crapshoot.

          

[TNwrestling]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:19 PM, Ban Basketball said:

Does the Iowa state tournament still not seed the rasslers?

I always found that annoying. 

The way Tennessee seeds the state tournament is awful..

 

In order to be seeded you HAVE to have medaled at the state tournament previously AND win the district, then regional tournament. You could be a 3x state champ, lose in the region finals, and be thrown randomly into the bracket. No other criteria. 

 

The highest medals finishers get the higher seeds. If there's two state champions in a bracket whoever won the title at the higher weight class gets the higher seed. 

 

Then the rest of the bracket is drawn out by regional finishes. 1v4 and 2v3. 

 

Now, while I admit I do enjoy having the brackets drop the day after the regional tournaments are finished, I wish they'd just sit down and seed these things out. With the new technology out there (zoom, skype etc) every coach could be present for the seeding meeting. But TN sucks and wont change. So yeah. 

[Formally140]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:43 AM, TNwrestling said:

The way Tennessee seeds the state tournament is awful..

 

In order to be seeded you HAVE to have medaled at the state tournament previously AND win the district, then regional tournament. You could be a 3x state champ, lose in the region finals, and be thrown randomly into the bracket. No other criteria. 

 

The highest medals finishers get the higher seeds. If there's two state champions in a bracket whoever won the title at the higher weight class gets the higher seed. 

 

Then the rest of the bracket is drawn out by regional finishes. 1v4 and 2v3. 

 

Now, while I admit I do enjoy having the brackets drop the day after the regional tournaments are finished, I wish they'd just sit down and seed these things out. With the new technology out there (zoom, skype etc) every coach could be present for the seeding meeting. But TN sucks and wont change. So yeah. 

Tweaking the separation criteria would be fine but there’s a reason pretty much every state only uses criteria to seed/separate kids at state.

And quite frankly, unless TN wrestling has magically changed since I left.. a zoom/coaches seed meeting for state would be even less fair 

[TNwrestling]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:29 PM, Formally140 said:

Tweaking the separation criteria would be fine but there’s a reason pretty much every state only uses criteria to seed/separate kids at state.

And quite frankly, unless TN wrestling has magically changed since I left.. a zoom/coaches seed meeting for state would be even less fair 

No other state seeds like this. My suggestion of zoom was only for the coaches who wouldn't make it in person. There's absolutely no good reason why this tournament cannot be seeded the same as any other tournament during the year. 

[Formally140]

30 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

No other state seeds like this. My suggestion of zoom was only for the coaches who wouldn't make it in person. There's absolutely no good reason why this tournament cannot be seeded the same as any other tournament during the year. 

There’s multiple. It either needs to be pure criteria or nothing