If I could change the scoring, I would....

[CoachC]

If I could change HS/NCAA scoring, I would change the dual team scoring, and I believe, it would increase scoring in individual matches. Go back to 2 point takedowns though. Tech Falls are 10 points instead of 15. Now, here is how it works: If my guy wins, 10-3, my team gets 7 team points. If your guy techs or pins my guy, you get 10 team points. If I win 1-0, I get 1 team point. This makes every point worth fighting for. No more laying on bottom, I want to get an escape to save my team a point. The most I can score for my team is 10 points (whether pin, tech, dq, or forfeit). I am sure this would make it easier for non wrestling people understand it easier, and would increase scoring in duals.

That said, I don't know how to score tournaments that would increase scoring. Any ideas?

Edited July 27, 2023 by CoachC

[nhs67]

Ew.

That said, I do think that a modification in team scoring could be in order.

Example...

Guy loses 6-1 via Decision, the loser gets one point for his team.  3-1 point swing (similar to Freestyle).  If the match ends via points, whether Tech, Major, or Decision, the loser will earn 1 or 0 points.  If he earned 0 points during the match he earns 0 team points.  If he earns more than 0 points during the match, he earns 1 point for his team.  A pin, default, or forfeit is a 6-0 swing no matter what.

As far as individual matches go, I would actually prefer they adopt Freestyle rules altogether.  If they don't, I am all on board for them deciding how they score the points during the match.  I may not like the 3 point takedown, however they make the rules - not me.

Here are two examples from last year.  The first being the closest dual Penn State had last year.  It was with Iowa and it was a 23-14 victory for Penn State.

125 - Iowa Tech 18-2
Old 0-5, New 1-5

133 - Penn State Pin
Old 6-5, New 7-5

141 - Iowa Dec 4-1
Old 6-8, New 8-8

149 - Iowa Dec 4-1
Old 6-11, New 9-11

157 - Penn State Dec 3-2
Old 9-11, New 12-12

165 - Iowa Dec 2-1
Old 9-14, New 13-15

174 - Penn State Dec 2-1
Old 12-14, New 16-16

184 - Penn State Tech 22-7
Old 17-14, New 21-17

197 - Penn State Dec 2-0
Old 20-14, New 24-17

285 - Penn State Dec 4-1
Old 23-14, New 27-18

Adds a little more spice to it for me.

Now the second example, which was a bit more competitive of a dual... Rutgers - Michigan State, where Rutgers won via 17-16 and it was a 5-5 match dual.

125 - Rutgers Dec 6-3
Old 3-0, New 3-1

133 - Rutgers Dec 4-3
Old 6-0, New 6-2

141 - Rutgers Maj 16-4
Old 10-0, New 10-3

149 - Rutgers Dec 5-3
Old 13-0, New 13-4

157 - Michigan State Dec 5-0
Old 13-3, New 13-7

165 - Michigan State Dec 2-0
Old 13-6, New 13-10

174 - Rutgers Dec 7-2
Old 16-6, New 16-10

184 - Michigan State Maj 16-6
Old 16-10, New 17-14

197 - Michigan State Dec 3-1
Old 16-13, New 18-17

285 - Michigan State Dec 3-0
Old 16-16, New 18-20

Michigan State would have won 20-18 rather than lost 16-16 on criteria.

[alex1fly]

1 hour ago, CoachC said:

If I could change HS/NCAA scoring, I would change the dual team scoring, and I believe, it would increase scoring in individual matches. Go back to 2 point takedowns though. Tech Falls are 10 points instead of 15. Now, here is how it works: If my guy wins, 10-3, my team gets 7 team points. If your guy techs or pins my guy, you get 10 team points. If I win 1-0, I get 1 team point. This makes every point worth fighting for. No more laying on bottom, I want to get an escape to save my team a point. The most I can score for my team is 10 points (whether pin, tech, dq, or forfeit). I am sure this would make it easier for non wrestling people understand it easier, and would increase scoring in duals.

That said, I don't know how to score tournaments that would increase scoring. Any ideas?

I signed in with my ridiculously long password just to say this sounds awesome. I would totally watch a dual with this kind of scoring. I don't know if its THE answer, but it sure would make duals more exciting. No more "well this match is obviously going to be a decision, I guess I'll space out for 10 minutes". It would make watching duals that I don't care about more exciting, too.

[jchapman]

Nine one point wins loses to one 10 point win.  Exciting, maybe.  But not the best way to decide a winning team.

[Dakota]

For NCAA, since dual meets means very little. I say, yeah, let's do it. Add a little bit more excitement. Every point matters!

[PencilNeck]

you really think this would discourage stalling?

[boconnell]

9 hours ago, CoachC said:

If I could change HS/NCAA scoring, I would change the dual team scoring, and I believe, it would increase scoring in individual matches. Go back to 2 point takedowns though. Tech Falls are 10 points instead of 15. Now, here is how it works: If my guy wins, 10-3, my team gets 7 team points. If your guy techs or pins my guy, you get 10 team points. If I win 1-0, I get 1 team point. This makes every point worth fighting for. No more laying on bottom, I want to get an escape to save my team a point. The most I can score for my team is 10 points (whether pin, tech, dq, or forfeit). I am sure this would make it easier for non wrestling people understand it easier, and would increase scoring in duals.

That said, I don't know how to score tournaments that would increase scoring. Any ideas?

How would this increase scoring? 

It might encourage the winning wrestler to score more points in some situations, but it definitely encourages the losing wrestler to do nothing in all situations.  

Edited July 27, 2023 by boconnell

[CoachC]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

How would this increase scoring? 

It might encourage the winning wrestler to score more points in some situations, but it definitely encourages the losing wrestler to do nothing in all situations.  

If I am losing 5-0, I can help my team by getting off the bottom, or take the shot if I am on my feet, where I really don't have a chance to help my team normally if I am down 5-0 on the bottom or down 5-0 on my feet.

[Dark Energy]

Here is the idea ….

If you try and get countered - as you likely will due to the other wrestler being better - the other team gets 2 more points.    Which may not happen today if they are within a decision or Major range.
 

Wrestlers likely to lose will do their best to NOT get scored on — perhaps more than today.  Risk seems even higher.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

I support this idea as it's great for high scoring offensive teams like Penn State.  It's bad for low scoring grind-y teams like Iowa who are content to win matches 3-2.

[davenowa]

since we can't have 1 win overcome 9 losses (or even 2 beating 8), and since decimalphobia runs amazingly high, may we consider an option that values every point scored but prevents the 1 beats 9 scenario: the hybrid of Margin of Victory coupled with a base win value?  A win by decision is 30 points.  Add to that your MOV (if you win 2-1, you get 1 MOV point, so 31 team points...if you win 14-0, you get 14 MOV points, so 44).  This makes every point scored matter, such that action would be increased during the latter stage of a match (whereas now, unless on the brink of earning or allowing a major, some settling of contents may occur). So decisions range from 31 to 44.  Tech falls would be 50, pins would be 60.  Would still prefer forfeits to be 70, but that may be a different fight.  

option two is to REALLY encourage scoring by making the win worth 20 (instead of 30), and adding not only the MOV, but also the number of points scored BY THE WINNER.  In this case, a 2-1 win is 20 plus 1 (MOV) plus 2 (Action Points) for a total of 23, while a 9-8 win would be 20 plus 1 (MOV) plus 9 (Action) for a total of 30.  This method attempts to truly increase scoring, as had happened in virtually every other sport on the planet, in an effort to improve the experience of the fans, most of whom would prefer to see a 9-8 match.  The action points are limited to 15, such that a 19-5 win would be 20 plus 14 (MOV) plus 15 (Action), a total of 49, preventing a high-scoring "major" from exceeding team points for a tech fall.

here is a small sample of the scoring shown in a table, with a link to the full range of outcomes provided below

Winner Score	Loser Score	Margin of Victory	MOV Pts	Max Pts Scored	Action Pts	Team Pts (MOV +30)	Team Pts (MOVA +20)
1	0	1	1	1	1	31	22
2	0	2	2	2	2	32	24
3	0	3	3	3	3	33	26
4	0	4	4	4	4	34	28

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u648y9JRoRgD_CljgRiqp5AgRlaSXS7jndKxvNjcoP8/edit?usp=sharing

[CoachC]

I thought about tournament scoring on my motorcycle ride. I am not sure I love it, but I like hearing other's ideas.

Still use my dual team scoring, but with a twist depending on what round you are in.

For example, win by pin in round 1, you get 10 points (just like in dual).

Win by pin in round 2, you multiply it by 2, so 20 team points. Con rounds are multiplied by a 1/2, so win by pin in con round 1, you get 5 team points, round 2 in cons, 10 team points.

Win by 4 points in the quarters (round 3), so you would do 4x3 and get 12 team points.

NCAA finals, if you win by 1 point, you would only get 5 team points, which seems like it doesn't reward enough points. Maybe add placement points too. I am trying to keep it simple but reward scoring.

 

[davenowa]

agreed that for tournaments, mirror dual scoring, but simply make consi side 1/2 values (maintain placement points, which in my scenario, would need to be increased significantly to maintain proportionality ie x 10).  no advancement points needed.

[Wrestleknownothing]

6 hours ago, davenowa said:

since we can't have 1 win overcome 9 losses (or even 2 beating 8), and since decimalphobia runs amazingly high, may we consider an option that values every point scored but prevents the 1 beats 9 scenario: the hybrid of Margin of Victory coupled with a base win value?  A win by decision is 30 points.  Add to that your MOV (if you win 2-1, you get 1 MOV point, so 31 team points...if you win 14-0, you get 14 MOV points, so 44).  This makes every point scored matter, such that action would be increased during the latter stage of a match (whereas now, unless on the brink of earning or allowing a major, some settling of contents may occur). So decisions range from 31 to 44.  Tech falls would be 50, pins would be 60.  Would still prefer forfeits to be 70, but that may be a different fight.  

option two is to REALLY encourage scoring by making the win worth 20 (instead of 30), and adding not only the MOV, but also the number of points scored BY THE WINNER.  In this case, a 2-1 win is 20 plus 1 (MOV) plus 2 (Action Points) for a total of 23, while a 9-8 win would be 20 plus 1 (MOV) plus 9 (Action) for a total of 30.  This method attempts to truly increase scoring, as had happened in virtually every other sport on the planet, in an effort to improve the experience of the fans, most of whom would prefer to see a 9-8 match.  The action points are limited to 15, such that a 19-5 win would be 20 plus 14 (MOV) plus 15 (Action), a total of 49, preventing a high-scoring "major" from exceeding team points for a tech fall.

here is a small sample of the scoring shown in a table, with a link to the full range of outcomes provided below

 

Winner Score	Loser Score	Margin of Victory	MOV Pts	Max Pts Scored	Action Pts	Team Pts (MOV +30)	Team Pts (MOVA +20)
1	0	1	1	1	1	31	22
2	0	2	2	2	2	32	24
3	0	3	3	3	3	33	26
4	0	4	4	4	4	34	28

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u648y9JRoRgD_CljgRiqp5AgRlaSXS7jndKxvNjcoP8/edit?usp=sharing

I love option 2

[nhs67]

I love option two with the caveat that I believe losing wrestlers should be allowed to score team points too, if they score points.

So a 9-8 match would br 20+9+1=30 to 8 for team purposes.

[Wrestleknownothing]

12 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I love option two with the caveat that I believe losing wrestlers should be allowed to score team points too, if they score points.

So a 9-8 match would br 20+9+1=30 to 8 for team purposes.

I like it better without that. The trailing wrestler has a bigger incentive to score that way.

If he doesn't score he gets -30 points for his team, but if he does score he gets 31 points for his team for a 61 point swing.

With your way of awarding points to the losing wrestler it goes from -22 to +22, still a big swing, but I like the bigger swing.

[CHROMEBIRD]

This idea has been proposed several times on the old forum. If I remember correctly, the biggest pushback is that it's not enough of an incentive to change anything. Wrestlers want their team to win, but ultimately dual/team results are a far lower priority compared with individual results and the team race at Nationals. It's hard to get wrestlers to care under the current system when DDM.