Would AJ Ferrari be the defending 2x NCAA champion if he went to PSU?

[98lberEating2Lunches]

1 hour ago, TexRef said:

Troll?! 

Yes, one who posts to get a reaction rather than to add value to a discussion.

At least I didn't refer to you as a Russian Turd Poster, so there's that.

And to be fair, you weren't the first to bring up Andrew Long.

Edited November 17, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[ionel]

11-16-2022

TEXT

JUDGE THOMAS: SP / THIS MATTER COMES ON FOR PRELIMINARY HEARING. THE DEFENDANT APPEARS IN PERSON AND WITH ATTORNEY, DEREK CHANCE. THE STATE APPEARS BY ATTORNEY, ERICA GARUCCIO. WITNESSES SWORN AND TESTIFY. THE COURT OVERRULES THE DEFENDANT'S DEMURRER. THE COURT FINDS THAT THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT A CRIME WAS COMMITTED AND THAT THE DEFENDANT COMMITTED THAT CRIME. THE COURT BINDS THE DEFENDANT OVER FOR TRIAL COURT ARRAIGNMENT DECEMBER 6, 2022 AT 1:30 P.M.

[TexRef]

16 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Yes, one who posts to get a reaction rather than to add value to a discussion.

At least I didn't refer to you as a Russian Turd Poster, so there's that.

And to be fair, you weren't the first to bring up Andrew Long.

Fair enough. 

[Spladle08]

Do their girls report?

[Spladle08]

It was a joke but for real, the persona kind of overtook the person.

Talent to never lose again, but distractions

[1032004]

23 hours ago, ionel said:

11-16-2022

TEXT

JUDGE THOMAS: SP / THIS MATTER COMES ON FOR PRELIMINARY HEARING. THE DEFENDANT APPEARS IN PERSON AND WITH ATTORNEY, DEREK CHANCE. THE STATE APPEARS BY ATTORNEY, ERICA GARUCCIO. WITNESSES SWORN AND TESTIFY. THE COURT OVERRULES THE DEFENDANT'S DEMURRER. THE COURT FINDS THAT THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT A CRIME WAS COMMITTED AND THAT THE DEFENDANT COMMITTED THAT CRIME. THE COURT BINDS THE DEFENDANT OVER FOR TRIAL COURT ARRAIGNMENT DECEMBER 6, 2022 AT 1:30 P.M.

What the heck is a demurrer?

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What the heck is a demurrer?

 

an objection that an opponent's point is irrelevant or invalid, while granting the factual basis of the point.

"on demurrer it was held that the plaintiff's claim succeeded"

 

So ... basically they rejected Focus argument saying enough evidence to proceed see ya on the 6th.

[dragit]

Things would not have gone better with Cael.  

I think the question is based on the wrong premise - that Cael has unique ability to keep a bad actor on the straight and narrow.

That's not his strength.  His program is far and away the best at getting the most out of good talent.  That 45-5 or whatever it is record in Friday night matches unambiguously proves that. 

But part and parcel of that is that he like all great coaches has his type of guy. You can't just put anyone there and he molds the clay.  They've got to be within certain parameters to be moldable.  Suriano, who hasn't almost killed three people for no good reason in a car crash and I can't picture being accused of the recent alleged crimes, wasn't the right kind of clay.  Ferrari - no.  

And in response to the inevitable "what about Andrew Long," doesn't that prove the point, a guy who has those issues isn't going to reform just being there. 

[Theo Brixton]

4 hours ago, dragit said:

Things would not have gone better with Cael.  

I think the question is based on the wrong premise - that Cael has unique ability to keep a bad actor on the straight and narrow.

That's not his strength.  His program is far and away the best at getting the most out of good talent.  That 45-5 or whatever it is record in Friday night matches unambiguously proves that. 

But part and parcel of that is that he like all great coaches has his type of guy. You can't just put anyone there and he molds the clay.  They've got to be within certain parameters to be moldable.  Suriano, who hasn't almost killed three people for no good reason in a car crash and I can't picture being accused of the recent alleged crimes, wasn't the right kind of clay.  Ferrari - no.  

And in response to the inevitable "what about Andrew Long," doesn't that prove the point, a guy who has those issues isn't going to reform just being there. 

The argument isn't that Cael has some unique ability to modify behavior. It is specific to Ferrari's (likely) narcissistic personality disorder. Being the unchallenged alpha-male in the OSU room did little to contain AJ's ballooning ego and this went into hyperdrive after the 2021 NCAAs. Smith was not in a position to push back because of the specter of transferring. In the PSU room, Cael wouldn't have to do anything other than let the upperclassmen and NLWC athletes wrestle with AJ. This doesn't have to be some sort of hazing (no doubt it could be punitive if necessary). It would be an inherently humbling experience for Ferrari and I contend having to face this on a daily basis would have been beneficial to keep his ego in check. To have role models that were both physically dominating as well as salt of the earth, humble people would have been a new experience for AJ and likely beneficial. Whether this would have been enough to change his behavior is entirely speculation but that's the point of the thread. 

The Suriano transfer is irrelevant. From all accounts, Cael did his level best to keep him and was actively recruiting him again last year. Starocci's demeanor more closely resembles Ferrari than Nolf or Retherford. Not everyone is a wholesome fun-bot. I think the culture at PSU is strong enough to withstand the Ferraris--provided that the oldest sister stays clear of the team...

Andrew Long's problems stemmed from substance abuse and his inability to control his behavior while intoxicated.--presumably unrelated to Ferrari's issues and bears little relevance to the potential impact of PSU on AJ. What the Long transfer does tell us is that Cael is willing to take on someone with baggage. But even this is irrelevant to my original post in that it assumes Ferrari is already at Penn State. We already know that multiple teams (including PSU?) passed on Ferrari because of the red (and white and green) flags.

 

On a somewhat unrelated note--do prison inmates have access to social media? The Ferrari family is reality TV series worthy.

 

[ionel]

8 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

This doesn't have to be some sort of hazing (no doubt it could be punitive if necessary). It would be an inherently humbling experience for Ferrari and I contend having to face this on a daily basis would have been beneficial to keep his ego in check.

So maybe AJ versus the team in the daily post practice dodge ball game just for fun.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[98lberEating2Lunches]

9 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

Cael wouldn't have to do anything other than let the upperclassmen and NLWC athletes wrestle with AJ.

Just as Cael & Company are fond of saying, "Iron sharpens iron," I have to think they know what a dull stone does to iron.  I don't think they'd decide to retard the best chances for further development of either PSU's or the NLWC's athletes by burdening them with the responsibility of somehow reshaping A.J.

This is consistent with another thing Cael is often heard saying, which goes something like, "It's up to each wrestler to want to become the best version of themselves.  It's our job as coaches to give the all the support they need to reach their full potential and achieve the goals they set for themselves."  So, no, Cael would never place such an expectation or burden on a non-coach.

Edited November 19, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Idaho]

7 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Just as Cael & Company are fond of saying, "Iron sharpens iron," I have to think they know what a dull stone does to iron.  I don't think they'd decide to retard the best chances for further development of either PSU's or the NLWC's athletes by burdening them with the responsibility of somehow reshaping A.J.

This is consistent with another thing Cael is often heard saying, which goes something like, "It's up to each wrestler to want to become the best version of themselves.  It's our job as coaches to give the all the support they need to reach their full potential and achieve the goals they set for themselves."  So, no, Cael would never place such an expectation or burden on a non-coach.

Not exactly true.... every coaching staff has leadership within their team that is shaping the younger and less mature wrestlers. Not saying its' their sole job or that the coaches are out of the picture... but to say that they don't have expectations on upperclassmen to lead by example, push the younger wrestlers and be part of sharping the younger talent, would be false. 

[Theo Brixton]

19 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Just as Cael & Company are fond of saying, "Iron sharpens iron," I have to think they know what a dull stone does to iron.  I don't think they'd decide to retard the best chances for further development of either PSU's or the NLWC's athletes by burdening them with the responsibility of somehow reshaping A.J.

This is consistent with another thing Cael is often heard saying, which goes something like, "It's up to each wrestler to want to become the best version of themselves.  It's our job as coaches to give the all the support they need to reach their full potential and achieve the goals they set for themselves."  So, no, Cael would never place such an expectation or burden on a non-coach.

[swoopdown]

On 11/16/2022 at 8:56 PM, Theo Brixton said:

I think AJ needed and would benefit from some tough love. And I think Cael was the only one capable of doling it out. I think it's plausible constant drubbings in the room might have kept his ego in check. That's the working hypothesis at least and will forever remain a though experiment.

I recall watching a Quentin Wright interview where he mentioned that Cael wasn't in the loop regarding Andrew Long's (dependency and behavioral?) issues while the PSU team members were aware.  I believe Cael learned from his errors and communication for non-wrestling issues has now become a priority as a result of that failure.   Great head coaches aren't perfect but they learn and adapt.   Or maybe he was aware but can't reveal intervention efforts due to privacy concerns.  (If Cael writes a tell all book when he retires I'd buy it!)

It's difficult to predict whether or not any coach can reel in a loose cannon.  I thought Brands and his Iowa teammates did an outstanding job guiding DeSanto.  I thought that DeSanto would be toxic and was dead wrong.  Maybe Brands - Iowa could have worked for AJ?  In the final analysis support systems can do everything right and a person can still go wrong.  

[98lberEating2Lunches]

7 hours ago, Idaho said:

to say that they don't have expectations on upperclassmen to lead by example

Agreed.  I didn't say that.  I mean  the coach wouldn't sick 'em on a pre-designated potential problem child to break them like a bronco buster would.

Edited November 19, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Theo Brixton]

5 hours ago, swoopdown said:

I recall watching a Quentin Wright interview where he mentioned that Cael wasn't in the loop regarding Andrew Long's (dependency and behavioral?) issues while the PSU team members were aware.  I believe Cael learned from his errors and communication for non-wrestling issues has now become a priority as a result of that failure.   Great head coaches aren't perfect but they learn and adapt.   Or maybe he was aware but can't reveal intervention efforts due to privacy concerns.  (If Cael writes a tell all book when he retires I'd buy it!)

 

Possible that Cael didn't know all the details of ongoing problems but Long was kicked off the ISU team. Everyone was aware he wasn't a choir boy when he joined PSU. 

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Agreed.  I didn't say that.  I mean  the coach wouldn't sick 'em on a pre-designated potential problem child to break them like a bronco buster would.

Cael would have go out of his way to tell his wrestlers to go easy on Ferrari for there not to be constant ass-kickings. And I get the sense Cael isn't opposed to a dishing out a little vengeance himself if the situation arises--but this is not a prerequisite. Simply losing (badly) in wrestling daily should be humbling enough for young AJ.

[Mike Parrish]

I strongly suspect that any coach that ever wants to bring AJ into their program is going to face an uphill battle with their AD.

Like, "Up Mount Everest" type of battle.

 

Like Downey, this kid was long damaged by their lack of access to positive male role models.
Nothing you're going to fix in a season or two.

[1032004]

58 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Like Downey, this kid was long damaged by their lack of access to positive male role models.
Nothing you're going to fix in a season or two.

What about Jesus?

[Le duke]

What about Jesus?

Texas Megachurch*** Jesus? He’s down with whatever as long as you give Osteen or Copeland some money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike Parrish]

13 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What about Jesus?

Would probably still choose Judas, all things considered.

[Theo Brixton]

5 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

I strongly suspect that any coach that ever wants to bring AJ into their program is going to face an uphill battle with their AD.

Like, "Up Mount Everest" type of battle.

 

Like Downey, this kid was long damaged by their lack of access to positive male role models.
Nothing you're going to fix in a season or two.

Not talking about making him son-in-law material, just keeping him out of prison.

And if he shakes the charges, he'll end up on another team if he chooses.

My bet would be Iowa. A premier school that is already talking to the family when they are radioactive. If there is one coach sympathetic to the dynamics of he-said-she-said, it is probably Brands. The question is will NCAA wrestling's version of the Joad family pack up and move again? Might be for the best for all involved if the father and sister weren't too close by...

[Mike Parrish]

1 minute ago, Theo Brixton said:

Not talking about making him son-in-law material, just keeping him out of prison.

And if he shakes the charges, he'll end up on another team if he chooses.

My bet would be Iowa. A premier school that is already talking to the family when they are radioactive. If there is one coach sympathetic to the dynamics of he-said-she-said, it is probably Brands. The question is will NCAA wrestling's version of the Joad family pack up and move again? Might be for the best for all involved if the father and sister weren't too close by...

As a coach, how do you guarantee to an AD that AJ doesn't go off the reservation?

What happens to the coach if AJ rapes someone else?

I don't see how that AD/Coach conversation ever ends with, "Sure. Let's try it out."

[Theo Brixton]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

As a coach, how do you guarantee to an AD that AJ doesn't go off the reservation?

What happens to the coach if AJ rapes someone else?

I don't see how that AD/Coach conversation ever ends with, "Sure. Let's try it out."

All predicated on him not being convicted. That remains to be seen. 

Brands gave Downey a real short leash and kicked him to the curb when he violated the terms of the arrangement. Can see something similar here.

[Mike Parrish]

4 minutes ago, Theo Brixton said:

All predicated on him not being convicted. That remains to be seen. 

Brands gave Downey a real short leash and kicked him to the curb when he violated the terms of the arrangement. Can see something similar here.

Imagine the liability you're taking on with AJ.
Imagine the court case and the testimony in a sexual assault case, even if he's acquitted in the current case.

There's just no way.

Downey was a spastic ding dong.
AJ is a sexual predator.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Mike Parrish

[Theo Brixton]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

Imagine the liability you're taking on with AJ.
Imagine the court case and the testimony in a sexual assault case, even if he's acquitted in the current case.

There's just no way.

Downey was a spastic ding dong.
AJ is a sexual predator.

Downey was posting sex acts on social media without consent of the partner if I remember correctly. Someone took on Andrew Long after his issues at PSU.

If AJ is convicted, it's a moot point. If he is not convicted, how is it much different than Gable Steveson?

He deserves his day in court regardless.

I agree that there will be schools that pass on him regardless of the outcome of the case but if he is found innocent, he'll get a second chance if he wants it.