Koll calling it like it is…

[Pinnacle]

Just now, d3grappler said:

I may be in the minority on this, but I agree with this sentiment after all the changes that have come recently. When the transfer portal became a thing, I thought it was a good thing for college athletes to be able to move freely if something changed with their situation at their previous school. It is when the NIL became legal that now I feel we should have one or the other. If an athlete gets paid that's great, but they should be locked in for a duration at that point IMO. I realize there are probably several good arguments against this...just my knee jerk reaction. 

I don't like the portal or NIL, but the lawmakers and the NCAA made them happen. They set this system up this way. 

Don't blame the coaches. Don't blame the wrestlers. They are not the ones who set it up this way. 

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, Idaho said:

IMO guys from the former school who followed the coach that recruited them is a different story than paying out guys in NIL deals to transfer. I wouldn't blame someone for following the coach that recruited them ... buying  a team with NIL is different.

what about buying them right out of high school?

[Idaho]

6 minutes ago, d3grappler said:

I may be in the minority on this, but I agree with this sentiment after all the changes that have come recently. When the transfer portal became a thing, I thought it was a good thing for college athletes to be able to move freely if something changed with their situation at their previous school. It is when the NIL became legal that now I feel we should have one or the other. If an athlete gets paid that's great, but they should be locked in for a duration at that point IMO. I realize there are probably several good arguments against this...just my knee jerk reaction. 

The problem is that the kids getting the scholarships are the mid-tier kids whereas the top elite kids are getting NIL to cover expenses. It's just another way of getting extra scholarships. 

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

what about buying them right out of high school?

What about it?  Koll's reference was clearly to what has happened this off-season with the portal and the teams most active in paying out NIL money - not in recruiting. 

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

What about it?  Koll's reference was clearly to what has happened this off-season with the portal and the teams most active in paying out NIL money - not in recruiting. 

Not related to Koll just asking if it makes sense/seems reasonable to be throwing 6 figures at high school kids that as far as we know haven't yet established an "image?"

[Pinnacle]

How would the NCAA Championships have worked out had all the schools NOT been able to utilize the portal or the transfer system? Only counting points from those recruited out of h.s.? 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Pinnacle

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

16 minutes ago, Idaho said:

IMO guys from the former school who followed the coach that recruited them is a different story than paying out guys in NIL deals to transfer. I wouldn't blame someone for following the coach that recruited them ... buying  a team with NIL is different.

Definitely something to that, and Provo wasn't actually a transfer, but Koll did certainly poach him.

[wrestle87]

Koll’s just being a bit salty, he’s been on this for more than a year talking about “what’s the point,” but at the best programs, the ncaa level is just a training ground for making the world team, considering that we’re in an age of 25 year old seniors who win world medals before winning ncaa’s.

I’ll take a stanford degree over NIL eight days a week.  He probably does really miss the state school affiliation of cornell right now though.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

There is  a lot to like about Koll, but I can almost guarantee that he's going to make sure the NIL funds are pouring in soon.  He'd already gotten a commit from Joe DeSena's kid, and that certainly won't hurt.

The way college admissions trends are looking, it might only be a matter of time before Stanford drops SAT/ACT requirements, removing a barrier for undergraduate entry.

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

IMO guys from the former school who followed the coach that recruited them is a different story than paying out guys in NIL deals to transfer. I wouldn't blame someone for following the coach that recruited them ... buying  a team with NIL is different.

Provo, Cardenas, and Darrah (and perhaps others like Chayse LaJoie and Luthie?) all changed their commitment from Cornell to Stanford.  Each of them, coincidentally, saw better guys at Cornell in their weight classes standing in the way for multiple years.

[TylerDurden]

I always find sanctimony from coaches to be laughable, much like it is from politicians. 

[Le duke]

How would the NCAA Championships have worked out had all the schools NOT been able to utilize the portal or the transfer system? Only counting points from those recruited out of h.s.? 

112 for Penn State, after removing 19 for Kerkvliet and 6.5 for Dean.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ragu]

I hope Koll can bring Stanford to prominence. A talented university in the state of cali would benefit wrestling as a whole 

[Pinnacle]

Without Dean and Kerk they probably get a few more from Beard and Nevills, not sure how much though.

Imagine Iowa having to replace DeSanto, Lugo, The Riddler, Real Woods ...etc. Then no Ferrari bros. That portal is a lifeline for sure. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Pinnacle

[bnwtwg]

51 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Without Dean and Kerk they probably get a few more from Beard and Nevills, not sure how much though.

Imagine Iowa having to replace DeSanto, Lugo, The Riddler, Real Woods ...etc. Then no Ferrari bros. That portal is a lifeline for sure. 

Pretty easy to extrapolate if you don't go down the transfer/recruiting butterfly effect and just pretend Kerk and Dean are at school X. It comes out to a -20 point swing leaving Penn State at 117.5, or 45 points ahead of Iowa. Or if you want to pretend that the wheel didn't spin and Beard = PSU, Dean = Cornell, Kerk = tOSU, and Nevills = PSU then this is how the math checks out:

Beard finished R12: 1 win (+1 MD) on the front side, 2 wins ((0.5*2)+1MD) in consis) = 4 points

Nevills finished R16: 1 decision the front side + .5 in consis = 1.5 points

If you want to say "but but but Cornell!" then please remember that Dean beat Cardenas in the 7th place match so it would not have been enough to beat Iowa. Cardenas scored 6.5 points and Dean scored 7. +0.5 Cornell

The big winner would have been tOSU +19.5 from Kerk and -1.5 from Orndorff (R12). That would have moved tOSU from 4th into 2nd place with 88.0 points.

Therefore:

1. PSU 117.5 [-21 points, remains winner]
2. tOSU 88.0 [+17.0 ↑2 places]
3. Iowa 82.5 [±0.0 ↓1 place]
4. Cornell 80.5 [+0.5 ↓1 place]

 

[82bordeaux]

19 hours ago, Idaho said:

Stanford’s transfer rate for acceptance is between 1.15% and 1.17%. Their options are very limited with the portal  

So Anthony Ferrari has a chance?

[Idaho]

5 hours ago, ionel said:

Not related to Koll just asking if it makes sense/seems reasonable to be throwing 6 figures at high school kids that as far as we know haven't yet established an "image?"

I would agree. I’m not sure what high school kids are getting though.  I only hear the rumors of the portal guys. 

[Matthew Burns]

Local opinion was "cancelling sports at Stanford" was largely about the college admissions scandal.

 

Koll is missing recruits from the Borelli era because Stanford was taking bribes and hiding dollars in their recruiting process. Was wrestling involved? I don't know. When the Cardinal announced they were cancelling athletic programs in the wake of scandal, those sports picked up a stink.  The odor doesn't leave quickly.

The Koll hire was widely praised in this neck of the woods. He should have known straight up what he was getting into. It's no mystery that academics keep a lot of blue chips out of Palo Alto. High level perennial success will take time.  

As far as "I'm not buying a team" goes...meh. Your employer was likely selling sham spots on that team. Sell the virtue elsewhere.

 

[Idaho]

3 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

I always find sanctimony from coaches to be laughable, much like it is from politicians. 

Salted with some truth as well. Do you really think that the rich aren’t getting richer and able to buy their way to trophy contention every year? Despite the way Koll comes off he’s speaking what most wrestling fans know to be true. 

[ionel]

57 minutes ago, Idaho said:

I would agree. I’m not sure what high school kids are getting though.  I only hear the rumors of the portal guys. 

I expect most are not getting anything of significance but $100k/yr for 5 years will get a hs kid's attention.

[Idaho]

8 minutes ago, ionel said:

I expect most are not getting anything of significance but $100k/yr for 5 years will get a hs kid's attention.

Are NIL deals one year deals? For some reason that's what I was thinking they were when connected to a booster at a school. Some pros and cons either way. Obviously guys that have NIL deals that are more national and outside the university boosters can do that (as well as guys on the senior level). 

[ionel]

18 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Are NIL deals one year deals? For some reason that's what I was thinking they were when connected to a booster at a school. Some pros and cons either way. Obviously guys that have NIL deals that are more national and outside the university boosters can do that (as well as guys on the senior level). 

Whether the one mentioned above is a "one year" or "five year" deal probably depends on the details actually offered.  I don't know if it was a we are guaranteeing five year regardless or if offered $100k/yr and will be renewed each of next 4 years if needed conditional upon x, y, & z.  Regardless still a big number.

[Gus]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Pretty easy to extrapolate if you don't go down the transfer/recruiting butterfly effect and just pretend Kerk and Dean are at school X. It comes out to a -20 point swing leaving Penn State at 117.5, or 45 points ahead of Iowa. Or if you want to pretend that the wheel didn't spin and Beard = PSU, Dean = Cornell, Kerk = tOSU, and Nevills = PSU then this is how the math checks out:

Beard finished R12: 1 win (+1 MD) on the front side, 2 wins ((0.5*2)+1MD) in consis) = 4 points

Nevills finished R16: 1 decision the front side + .5 in consis = 1.5 points

If you want to say "but but but Cornell!" then please remember that Dean beat Cardenas in the 7th place match so it would not have been enough to beat Iowa. Cardenas scored 6.5 points and Dean scored 7. +0.5 Cornell

The big winner would have been tOSU +19.5 from Kerk and -1.5 from Orndorff (R12). That would have moved tOSU from 4th into 2nd place with 88.0 points.

Therefore:

1. PSU 117.5 [-21 points, remains winner]
2. tOSU 88.0 [+17.0 ↑2 places]
3. Iowa 82.5 [±0.0 ↓1 place]
4. Cornell 80.5 [+0.5 ↓1 place]

 

Dean would likely be 184 at Cornell

[AgaveMaria]

If he doesn' like the rules, lobby to change them. Quit the "holier than thou" act.

[TylerDurden]

8 hours ago, Idaho said:

Salted with some truth as well. Do you really think that the rich aren’t getting richer and able to buy their way to trophy contention every year? Despite the way Koll comes off he’s speaking what most wrestling fans know to be true. 

Since the NCAA began hosting DI championships, there have only been 11 different team champions. There have been five, one-time winners. Six schools have won 82 of the 87 titles that the NCAA has handed out. Nineteen schools have been runners-up and only nine of those 19 haven't won the title. 

NIL didn't do that. The transfer portal didn't do that. Wrestling has always been top-heavy and various methods have been used to get to the top of the heap. 

Koll is a smart guy, but he's spouting off with his sanctimonious nonsense to send a message (also lying) to recruits that he's not going to recruit over you via the portal (which he undoubtedly will, given the chance). Do you really think Koll is going to keep trotting out a team full of guys who can't win in the Pac 12?