Oklahoma State 2023-24, 2024-25

[BerniePragle]

4 hours ago, Michael Moran said:

Alvarez was at 141.  But he left Rutgers because he failed to make weight.  So maybe moved up to 149?

Look at  Southern Scuffle matches between North Dakota State kid and Williams and Voinovich.  I think they look close to me. And given it was Williams redshirt year and his better athletic ability, I think Williams  was a threat. 

But I admit, I don't know anything.

Sorry, that spot's already taken.

[ionel]

22 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

Sorry, that spot's already taken.

Who?  Can he make 141?  You talking Wkn?

Edited July 2, 2023 by ionel

[BerniePragle]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

Who?  Can he make 141?  You talking Wkn?

He's on first.  No clue.  Of course.

[H82Lose]

20 hours ago, Michael Moran said:

I admit I don't know anything.  But I had similar thought as nhs67 in that why would Williams cut to 65 kg for freestyle. Also could Sammy Alvarez be a stud in room at 149?  I think Voinovich transferred because he say he could not start at 149.  Otherwise doesn't make sense as family had moved to Stillwater.  I thought Voinovich though he couldn't beat Williams.  But with Williams going down for freestyle season, what is going on?  So putting pieces together maybe Sammy Alvarez looks great at 149 and caused Voinovich to transfer and Williams to try to move to 141.  Alvarez had his moments at Rutgers but unless he has gotten much better at OSU don't think he was that good?  Any thoughts from anyone? 

When Williams was in the Collinsville room, he was back and forth 157/165, and granted he was not cutting hard to 157 his JR year. He struggled last year making 149, but Smith was making him make 149 at most duals, even though he was not wrestling. I know he struggled a lot to make it. BUT his body as adjusted, and maybe 149 is better for him now.  I would see a better chance of him trying to rank at 157 vs 141....just my two cents. I will gladly eat crow if he is starting at 141 this year. 

[H82Lose]

23 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Devil's Advocate here... why would he drop from last offseason's Freestyle weight of 70 KG (~154.3lbs) to 65 KG (~143.3lbs) for this Freestyle season?

Dropping those 11lbs isn't exactly a sign pointing towards a successful venture as D1 149lber for the team that has the most titles in history out of any and all collegiate sports.  Especially since that squad is well known to make kids cut a shit tonne of weight.

Well, I would say, sucking your balls off once is much different than living there for a complete season. We shall see....I could very well be wrong.  I know I didnt think Blankenship was gonna make 125, I thought no way...and here we are. 

[ionel]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:50 AM, H82Lose said:

ZERO and I mean ZERO % chance Jordan Williams will go 141...did I say ZERO? ZERO. 

 

22 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

I will gladly eat crow if he is starting at 141 this year. 

ZERO crow for you sir ... ZERO!!

Edited July 2, 2023 by ionel

[H82Lose]

37 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

ZERO crow for you sir ... ZERO!!

Well I had just left a pool party when I replied to this....I got up today and I am like crap, that is a bold statement...I know Jordan, but I have not talked to him in awhile.  I will have the boy ask him to see what is what.....problem is, he may THINK he knows what he WANTS to do, and that might be totally opposite of what Ol John boy wants him to do. 

[Michael Moran]

When I compared video of Williams and Voinovich at Southern Scuffle, my thought was Williams was better, he just needed some polish.  My guess is he got polish his redshirt year.

So makes sense that Williams was beating Voinovich in practice and Voinovich decided he would transfer so he could start.

Also given Alvarez's history of not making weight, makes sense that OSU wanted to bring in Jamison.  So Alvarez is wildcard.  If he can make 141, he goes up against Jamison for spot in lineup.  If he can't make 141, be battles Williams for start at 149.  And Carter Young gets redshirt year to let his knee heal and work on weights to get stronger (as was overpowered at times).

To me, all three have good shot at being AAs, but far from a sure thing and likely in 4 to 8 spot.  

If Alvarez goes up to 149, does loser of him and Williams start at 157.  To me choices at 157 look like Mirzo Khayitov (if he can move down from 165 where he wrestled Juco), Manibog, or Cutter Sheets.  Khayitov is interesting, but was second, not first at Juco.  So all three are weak choices.

[nhs67]

5 hours ago, H82Lose said:

Well, I would say, sucking your balls off once is much different than living there for a complete season. We shall see....I could very well be wrong.  I know I didnt think Blankenship was gonna make 125, I thought no way...and here we are. 

I had to read that first sentence a good 12 or 14 times before the dots connected themselves to 'cutting weight' not not actually... well... sucking one's own balls off.

[pretty_rob]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:15 PM, Husker_Du said:

predicting what John W. does is a fool's errand. i have speculated on it several times but he keeps everyone on their toes.

i promise you, his own staff doesn't even know what he's going to do next.

there's even a credible possibility that he will resign later this fall. 

who’s the possible replacements? Especially that late in the season. 
 

if someone like Pop came in that late (can’t imagine he would but this might be an opportunity he couldn’t pass up) that would set up a series of huge dominoes of coaching changes very late in the year. 
would definitely spice things up. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by pretty_rob

[boconnell]

23 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Have you missed every season since Marsteller or something?

Who is cutting the big weight?  Their guys are smaller than average and tons of them have moved up in weight class.  

From last year's postseason roster...

Wittcraft was big.  He dropped a weight to fill the roster.  Fix is average size.  Young is very small.  Voinovich definitely wasn't big.  Gfellar was up multiple weights over his career and was a small 157.  Sheets was up a weight last year and wasn't big at 165.  Plott was average sized.  Wittlake jumped two weights and was tiny at 184.  Surber was a full sized 197.  Doucet wasn't cutting like most heavyweights.

I see one guy who cut significant weight and a bunch of guys who were small for their weight.  What am I missing that you see?

[nhs67]

13 hours ago, boconnell said:

Who is cutting the big weight?  Their guys are smaller than average and tons of them have moved up in weight class.  

From last year's postseason roster...

Wittcraft was big.  He dropped a weight to fill the roster.  Fix is average size.  Young is very small.  Voinovich definitely wasn't big.  Gfellar was up multiple weights over his career and was a small 157.  Sheets was up a weight last year and wasn't big at 165.  Plott was average sized.  Wittlake jumped two weights and was tiny at 184.  Surber was a full sized 197.  Doucet wasn't cutting like most heavyweights.

I see one guy who cut significant weight and a bunch of guys who were small for their weight.  What am I missing that you see?

I think we are both sort of picking apples from the same side of the tree.  Meaning I see what you are saying on size, although I think you are drastically underselling the OSU gents.  My point was that they have had serious weight-cutters.  That doesn't necessarily mean size.

We will have to disagree on Fix, btw.  I think he is absolutely jacked at 133.  He dwarfed every 61 KG guy on the planet during his Silvers run.  Also Witcraft sucked a shit-tonne of weight.  Yes.  There is one from last season at the very least.  Add in that he had to do it with what... a month left?

Gfellar should have never been 141.  Plott IS average sized and Wittlake was not a tiny 184lber.  Against Bolen, who is and has been a rather stacked 184lber for the last five years, he went toe-to-toe and did not look smaller.  Sheets?  Yeah last year is the anomaly.  Gfellar and Sheets both were absolutely victems of '7th' year senioritis AND the Focus clan coming through and destroying the culture (in one-ish season)

MOST heavyweights do not cut to get to 285lbs.  That is a false statement if ever there was one.  They might get a bit healthier to get under the 285 limit at the beginning of the season, but during the season they aren't cutting.  Maybe Jensen was the last HWT that actually had to 'cut' to get there?  Even Schultzy brushed off having to weight manage when he was asked about his 'down' performance at NCAAs.

I will even concede that Surber navigated to a more natural weight class despite coming down from ~245lbs to 197 in one offseason.  He has physically looked like three different beings the last 14 calendar months, though, due to 'weight management' approaches.  Definitely wasn't cutting at all there.  Not once.  He went Vegan or something.

[Gus]

9 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I think we are both sort of picking apples from the same side of the tree.  Meaning I see what you are saying on size, although I think you are drastically underselling the OSU gents.  My point was that they have had serious weight-cutters.  That doesn't necessarily mean size.

We will have to disagree on Fix, btw.  I think he is absolutely jacked at 133.  He dwarfed every 61 KG guy on the planet during his Silvers run.  Also Witcraft sucked a shit-tonne of weight.  Yes.  There is one from last season at the very least.  Add in that he had to do it with what... a month left?

Gfellar should have never been 141.  Plott IS average sized and Wittlake was not a tiny 184lber.  Against Bolen, who is and has been a rather stacked 184lber for the last five years, he went toe-to-toe and did not look smaller.  Sheets?  Yeah last year is the anomaly.  Gfellar and Sheets both were absolutely victems of '7th' year senioritis AND the Focus clan coming through and destroying the culture (in one-ish season)

MOST heavyweights do not cut to get to 285lbs.  That is a false statement if ever there was one.  They might get a bit healthier to get under the 285 limit at the beginning of the season, but during the season they aren't cutting.  Maybe Jensen was the last HWT that actually had to 'cut' to get there?  Even Schultzy brushed off having to weight manage when he was asked about his 'down' performance at NCAAs.

I will even concede that Surber navigated to a more natural weight class despite coming down from ~245lbs to 197 in one offseason.  He has physically looked like three different beings the last 14 calendar months, though, due to 'weight management' approaches.  Definitely wasn't cutting at all there.  Not once.  He went Vegan or something.

I agree that this was just a goofy, anomaly year for OSU lineup wise because of 7th year guys. Couple years ago Gfeller, Wittlake and Sheets all pulled a bunch of weight 

[alex1fly]

"OSU cuts more weight than anybody else" has become a meme. It's meaningless to cherrypick a few OSU examples to support your argument and leave out discussion of any other OSU wrestler or any other wrestler from any other program.

 

I don't think Flo necessarily has a handle on OSU's starting lineup, but it was cool to see the last 10 years' of NCAA finishes. I've been trying to hunt this info down, guess I just needed to look at Flo (gross but hey). As a fan these past two years have been long (again thanks Ferraris and partially Mastros for blowing up our lineup), but four 3rd place and two 2nd place finishes in the last decade is quite respectable. I'd say we've had a good run and I look forward to seeing the squad back in action this year.

 

Last 10 NCAA Championships:

2013: 2nd

2014: 3rd

2015: 7th

2016: 2nd

2017: 3rd

2018: 13th

2019: 3rd

2020: Canceled (COVID)

2021: 3rd

2022: 14th

2023: 18th

[nhs67]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:43 PM, alex1fly said:

"OSU cuts more weight than anybody else" has become a meme. It's meaningless to cherrypick a few OSU examples to support your argument and leave out discussion of any other OSU wrestler or any other wrestler from any other program.

 

I don't think Flo necessarily has a handle on OSU's starting lineup, but it was cool to see the last 10 years' of NCAA finishes. I've been trying to hunt this info down, guess I just needed to look at Flo (gross but hey). As a fan these past two years have been long (again thanks Ferraris and partially Mastros for blowing up our lineup), but four 3rd place and two 2nd place finishes in the last decade is quite respectable. I'd say we've had a good run and I look forward to seeing the squad back in action this year.

 

Last 10 NCAA Championships:

2013: 2nd

2014: 3rd

2015: 7th

2016: 2nd

2017: 3rd

2018: 13th

2019: 3rd

2020: Canceled (COVID)

2021: 3rd

2022: 14th

2023: 18th

My understanding is that even had the Focus clan not gone there, Mastro was going to be a turd either way.  While the Focus clan gets the blame, do we really know if it would have been as bad without Mastro insofar as culture destruction?

I say yes, but Mastro is just as guilty in so many ways.  In some ways worse.

[alex1fly]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

My understanding is that even had the Focus clan not gone there, Mastro was going to be a turd either way.  While the Focus clan gets the blame, do we really know if it would have been as bad without Mastro insofar as culture destruction?

I say yes, but Mastro is just as guilty in so many ways.  In some ways worse.

I don't think we need to get too gossipey about it but its no comparison IMO. Mastros hurt a few feelings, Ferraris caused long term trauma to many people in multiple categories of criminal behavior and nearly killed several in the process of several independent events... not to mention being creepy and stalky af.

 

Either way GLAD THEY'RE GONE and hope the team vibe is better!!

Edited July 5, 2023 by alex1fly

[Michael Moran]

I again want to say OSU has a lot of questions going into next year.

So do we think they start Carroll and Thompson?  Flo says no, I say yes.  I think Carroll beats Doucet and Thompson beats Whitlake (or anyone else) in ranking matches and after an 18th finish Smith has to be thinking the future is now.

I think Jamison is 141 pounder.  Alvarez and Williams competes for 149 with the loser likely 157 pounder (but maybe Khayitov).

Does Plott redshirt so Whitlake takes 174 spot.  I think Whitlake at 174 is as good as Plott, but close.

So you have 3 guys that are likely to place, Fix, Plott/Whitlake, and Olejnik.

6 guys who have a chance.  I think Spratley is an AA at 125, and maybe a high one.  I think Jamison is a mid level AA (4th to 6th).  Williams/ Alvarez maybe but not likely at 149.  Nothing at 157.  Thompson is mid level AA at 185.  Surber is a low level AA as is Carroll.

So I give them 8 AA, but 4 of the 8 low AA (5th to 8th).  Doesn't get them close to Penn St but better than a ton better than last year.

 

[flyingcement]

1 hour ago, Michael Moran said:

I again want to say OSU has a lot of questions going into next year.

So do we think they start Carroll and Thompson?  Flo says no, I say yes.  I think Carroll beats Doucet and Thompson beats Whitlake (or anyone else) in ranking matches and after an 18th finish Smith has to be thinking the future is now.

I think Jamison is 141 pounder.  Alvarez and Williams competes for 149 with the loser likely 157 pounder (but maybe Khayitov).

Does Plott redshirt so Whitlake takes 174 spot.  I think Whitlake at 174 is as good as Plott, but close.

So you have 3 guys that are likely to place, Fix, Plott/Whitlake, and Olejnik.

6 guys who have a chance.  I think Spratley is an AA at 125, and maybe a high one.  I think Jamison is a mid level AA (4th to 6th).  Williams/ Alvarez maybe but not likely at 149.  Nothing at 157.  Thompson is mid level AA at 185.  Surber is a low level AA as is Carroll.

So I give them 8 AA, but 4 of the 8 low AA (5th to 8th).  Doesn't get them close to Penn St but better than a ton better than last year.

 

I predict Tagen Jamison over Sammy Alvarez but then Alvarez beating out Williams at 149

Wittlake to 174 with Plott on RS

Carroll and Thompson both starting.  

125: Spratley 

133: Fix

141: Jamison

149: Alvarez

157: Manibog

165: Olejnik

174: Wittlake

184: Thompson

197: Surber

285: Carroll 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

I predict Tagen Jamison over Sammy Alvarez but then Alvarez beating out Williams at 149

Wittlake to 174 with Plott on RS

Carroll and Thompson both starting.  

125: Spratley 

133: Fix

141: Jamison

149: Alvarez

157: Manibog

165: Olejnik

174: Wittlake

184: Thompson

197: Surber

285: Carroll 

or

125: Spratley 

133: Fix

141: Jamison

149: Alvarez

157: Mirzo

165: Olejnik

174: Wittlake

184: Thompson

197: Surber

285: Carroll 

[flyingcement]

8 minutes ago, ionel said:

or

125: Spratley 

133: Fix

141: Jamison

149: Alvarez

157: Mirzo

165: Olejnik

174: Wittlake

184: Thompson

197: Surber

285: Carroll 

Ah yeah- forgot about Mirza.  Agreed with the above

[nhs67]

I think you gents are accurate on the 174/184 situation and I would have also played it  that way.

I think Carroll is the obvious answer for OSU, but I hope they do redshirt him.  Right now he is fringe R12, which isn't but a match or two higher than Doucet.  If he goes in 2024-2025 for his frosh season he is a T3-6 contender, depending on development.  Doucet I believe is about tapped out as a R12/R16 guy.

I don't know that Mirzo drops.  He has Olympic aspirations at 74 KG for his home country (one of the 'stans).  Even if Smith wills him to it, I don't know that he does or even wants to.  I think we more than likely see him redshirt(or Oly-shirt) then man 165lbs.

After seeing Gomez succeed at 149 after jumping from 133 to 149, I like the idea of seeing Alvarez and Williams fighting it out at 149.  I believe the problem with that is that Jamison hasn't had an injury free season/year in how long?  Also Williams was just down at 65 KG (143.3lbs) and lost to Michigan's incoming true frosh Gilcher at U20s.  I don't know what success any of them are going to have at 149, let alone if one ends up going 157.  Alvarez is explosive and we know his style translates well, when he isn't cutting insane weight, to D1 wrestling.  That makes me hope he find success either at 149 or 157.  I really think it ends up being Alvarez and Williams at 149 until one cements themselve (likely by the new year) and then the loser going at it with Manibog/Sheets at 157, which I think is no foregone conclusion at this current point in time.  This is all assuming Jamison can stay healthy.  If he can't I am not sure what they do.  Prior to U20s I would have said Alvarez, but A - I don't want Alvarez at 141.  I want him at 149 at the lowest.  I don't want to see him cutting weight.  At all.  Also B - I don't know what to expect of Williams.  He went from wrestling 70 KG (154.3lbs) last offseason to 149lbs during his redshirt to 65 KG (143.3lbs).  I didn't think he looked particularly soft coming out of high school as a 152lber.

[Offthemat]

I keep hearing Wittlake isn’t coming back. 

[bnwtwg]

31 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

I keep hearing Wittlake isn’t coming back. 

That's a shame. He was climbing to high places until he got hurt junior year - after his true frosh and RS frosh performances I thought he was going to leave OSU with a title.

[nhs67]

35 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

I keep hearing Wittlake isn’t coming back. 

I mean... if Plott doesn't redshirt, I don't know that they are any worse off for next season.  If Lewis does go up to 184, like many are speculating, then Plott is right there in the thick of it for a Silver.

I would put 174 like this, insofar as tiers... (this is off the top of my head)...

Tier 1 - Starocci
Tier 2 - Foca, Griffith
Tier 3 - Plott, Kharchla
Tier 4 - Mocco, Brands, O'Malley, Conigliaro, Jordan, Ruth, Washington
* There are other gents in Tier 4, I am sure.  A lot of parity there.  I could also see a few gents separating from the pack and needing to split Tier 4 to Tier 4 and Tier 5.

That puts Plott right in the thick of things, with the right matchup(s).  I could also see him losing to a half dozen other gents.  I think Wittlake at this point was Tier 3 at best, but could have been Tier 4/5 in that scenario.  I am not sure.

[H82Lose]

8 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I think you gents are accurate on the 174/184 situation and I would have also played it  that way.

I think Carroll is the obvious answer for OSU, but I hope they do redshirt him.  Right now he is fringe R12, which isn't but a match or two higher than Doucet.  If he goes in 2024-2025 for his frosh season he is a T3-6 contender, depending on development.  Doucet I believe is about tapped out as a R12/R16 guy.

I don't know that Mirzo drops.  He has Olympic aspirations at 74 KG for his home country (one of the 'stans).  Even if Smith wills him to it, I don't know that he does or even wants to.  I think we more than likely see him redshirt(or Oly-shirt) then man 165lbs.

After seeing Gomez succeed at 149 after jumping from 133 to 149, I like the idea of seeing Alvarez and Williams fighting it out at 149.  I believe the problem with that is that Jamison hasn't had an injury free season/year in how long?  Also Williams was just down at 65 KG (143.3lbs) and lost to Michigan's incoming true frosh Gilcher at U20s.  I don't know what success any of them are going to have at 149, let alone if one ends up going 157.  Alvarez is explosive and we know his style translates well, when he isn't cutting insane weight, to D1 wrestling.  That makes me hope he find success either at 149 or 157.  I really think it ends up being Alvarez and Williams at 149 until one cements themselve (likely by the new year) and then the loser going at it with Manibog/Sheets at 157, which I think is no foregone conclusion at this current point in time.  This is all assuming Jamison can stay healthy.  If he can't I am not sure what they do.  Prior to U20s I would have said Alvarez, but A - I don't want Alvarez at 141.  I want him at 149 at the lowest.  I don't want to see him cutting weight.  At all.  Also B - I don't know what to expect of Williams.  He went from wrestling 70 KG (154.3lbs) last offseason to 149lbs during his redshirt to 65 KG (143.3lbs).  I didn't think he looked particularly soft coming out of high school as a 152lber.

I think Williams has been cutting too much weight, I know that has been the theme.