PSU Best Ever vs Iowa Best Ever - who wins?

[11986]

21 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Authored by Nolan Zavoral, I believe?

yep

[pcostilow]

This thread (the last few pages, anyway) is one of the most reasonable discussions I have ever read on one of these forums lol

[AgaveMaria]

The old guys would do just fine today. IF given modern training, diet and coaching.

Put todays wrestlers on the mat with Gable - with  the rules and training back then - and you will still see Gable arm bar them into numbness on one side and do the same with the other arm 2nd period, then turn and pin them.

That said, Ed Ruth beats Banach worse than Mark Schultz did.

[AgaveMaria]

23 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Ahhh...damn, I meant Cael and GABLE, not Brands. I'm not sure Brands has that same ability that GABLE did.

Both have that Something that resonates with their wrestlers. Both have champions that did not wrestler "Their style" - but have a coach & staff that brought out the best their talent could do.

Watched Jim Zalesky at Iowa. Learned from Gable but once past Gable recruits was a let down. Brands was hot at first & then coled. Niether are Gable and niether moved past it to make the program their own.

Cael is not Gable - while he IS Gable in many ways. Intelligence and coaching to win and get kids to buy into what is being taught, not "wrestle like me", but "wrestle to be great" - and we will help you get there.

Many other great coaches out there at other programs but these two are a step above them.

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 4/4/2023 at 2:39 PM, PortaJohn said:

We'll just have to disagree on the Cael stuff.  I know people who have been in the practice room and everyone says the same thing.  What Cael is doing behind closed doors is unique and very different from every other program.  He's a genius as is Gable

 

23 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for.

There's also the way they talk about Cael. They hold Cunningham and in high esteem(Cody for that matter). But Cael was turning ISU around, then almost immediately turned Penn State into a powerhouse. 

 I think there's a case to be made that Iowa was more dominant than PSU. If you used the same scoring, I believe Iowa still has the most dominant 3-4 NCAA team Titles since ~1970. So I guess in that sense you could argue that Gable is on a higher level than Cael(I think you'd really be nit picking)...but Cael brought instant credibility. The type I think a, Burroughs, Dake or Taylor could bring, should either decide they want to get into coaching.

Good points about PSU wrestlers praising Cael. The jury is still out for me again, because he doesn't really say much so it's hard to tell what's going on in his head. Iowa wrestlers similarly exalt Brands but I don't think he's a coaching genius. Don't get me wrong (I could never have said that on HR) I like Brands fine, but don't believe is he more than what he shows us. Gable was more. Cael might be more. I do get a bit of a zen master vibe from him, like maybe he says things to calm his wrestlers down and help them focus... but then Cunningham does the work to make it happen, lol. On the other hand, I think ol' Tommie could benefit from better support in the room than M* and Telford or even Terry. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. It's an interesting discussion.

[El Luchador]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:14 PM, headshuck said:

Seems like you’d need a Time Machine to compare. Brutes from the past would probably inflict a world of hurt on today’s guys if the refs allowed it.

The refs would show them mercy by stalling them out. I love watching the old matches with 2 guys attacking like animals and the ref raising a fist out of nowhere. 

[Le duke]

The refs would show them mercy by stalling them out. I love watching the old matches with 2 guys attacking like animals and the ref raising a fist out of nowhere. 

Those old dudes would get smoked by PSU upper weights. Just technically superior in every aspect of wrestling. I mean, maybe they wouldn’t be breathing as hard as some others when getting picked apart by Taylor or Ruth but smashed all the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Luchador]

1 minute ago, Le duke said:

Those old dudes would get smoked by PSU upper weights. Just technically superior in every aspect of wrestling. I mean, maybe they wouldn’t be breathing as hard as some others when getting picked apart by Taylor or Ruth but smashed all the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well I disagree.  The styles were different and you draw way to much of a conclusion from what you view as being better.  The pace of the matches back then was much harsher and the stalemate calls kept the need to scramble to a minimum. There were also many more programs which also means a larger pool of talent. To say a Guy like John Smith couldn't wrestle with today's athletes is just foolish.  The collegiate style of Wrestling from the 80s and 90s produced much more international ready wrestlers than we are seeing today. I also think today's wrestlers are much more narrow in their skills set. Yesterday's wrestlers were more closely trained like international athletes than today's are. Today's wrestlers definitely have worse Par Terre offense and way worse par terre defense. Past wrestlers adapted their freestyle to Folkstyle and the opposite happens today. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

8 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Those old dudes would get smoked by PSU upper weights. Just technically superior in every aspect of wrestling. I mean, maybe they wouldn’t be breathing as hard as some others when getting picked apart by Taylor or Ruth but smashed all the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That right there is the difference. Watching old tapes, it's pretty noticeable that a lot of the top wrestlers have been in the sport for maybe 5 or 6 years and just went out and brawled, as opposed to wrestlers today who travel the country, compete year round, and study positions from a young age. Kids today are very measured and slick, and look more comfortable in any situation. So many wrestlers in the old videos look clunky by comparison. I do like how the old school guys really went after it and scrapped, but today that can get you countered and stuck. 

[El Luchador]

2 old timers that can't scramble. 

also note that a DII wrestler make the finals. Another significant bit of talent to contend with. 

 

[AgaveMaria]

"I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for."

---------------------------------

Cael & Cunningham.

Kurdelmeier & Gable.

Don't forget Gary Kurdelmeier had the bright idea to hire Dan Gable - he put together a coaching staff that got Iowa its first NCAA title in history. Iowa State was the big dog. Iowa with the two started winning, then Gary retired and turned it over to Gable - the rest is history.

Cael has Cunningham - smart and works well with the wrestlers. A great combination. Casey gets a ton of interest for every open coaching job. But - Why take them? He and Cael and Cody have built something great and it keeps on going. Credit is due to all of them, but..., without Cael I doubt they would be as good for as long.

Gable was magic. Cael is magic. No doubt about it - both deserve all the success. They are unique.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, El Luchador said:

2 old timers that can't scramble. 

also note that a DII wrestler make the finals. Another significant bit of talent to contend with. 

 

Who said they COULDN'T scramble? Most of those old timers will tell you themselves the Wrestling technique is better today by a WIDE margin(by the way, one of them sent me this exact video within 30 minutes).

You can't compare the scrambling back then with the scrambling now. 

I'm also not sure how you come to the conclusion that Wrestlers transitioned quicker from Folkstyle to Freestyle. You've got guys winning Olympic Golds while in College now, you have World Medalists NOT winning NCAA Titles. You've got more success in Freestyle now. I suppose it's taken longer for some because they've been blocked by other gold medalist. Dake, Taylor, Howe by JB. Cox by Snyder.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

That right there is the difference. Watching old tapes, it's pretty noticeable that a lot of the top wrestlers have been in the sport for maybe 5 or 6 years and just went out and brawled, as opposed to wrestlers today who travel the country, compete year round, and study positions from a young age. Kids today are very measured and slick, and look more comfortable in any situation. So many wrestlers in the old videos look clunky by comparison. I do like how the old school guys really went after it and scrapped, but today that can get you countered and stuck. 

Right. It's not an indictment on the older Wrestlers. As I mentioned, you had so many guys who didn't start until HS or in HS. 

It's just...so obvious and the reason is simple. You have a kid who's getting private lessons from NCAA Champs or AAs vs Wrestlers who grew up when Club Wrestling was rare or who just started as a Freshmen and what do you expect?

 

As for the idea that they called Stalling so much quicker then, look at Jim Heffernan in the '87 NCAAs vs the Iowa State kid or the St. John match you posted. It was and remains hit or miss. Wrestlers today are more...just savvy. How many times do you see the ref get to a 4 count and the top Wrestler pulls his foot out of bounds? The Mat awareness, the defense and counter Wrestling...I had this discussion with MSPart when I said I thought PSU would win the vast majority of the matchups between "all-time greats" because it was presented as if you took Ed Banach and matched him up against Brooks or Nickal, who'd win. He then asked if I thought those Wrestlers with the same time and training would adjust and...of course I do. 

 

But I don't see how you can argue just the old style of Wrestling would beat today without the benefits the Wrestlers have had today...that doesn't make sense to me, and again, it's anecdotal, but a couple of guys who won NCAA titles in the 80s who've mentioned how much better the technique is(it was specifically in regard to Banach FTR). 

 

This is a losing argument for EVERY generation IMO. No sport is "better" in terms of skill now than it was 20-30 years ago. Wrestling in particular, guys develop techniques to stop the best Wrestlers or the most effective techniques. 

I still don't think PSU has reached the level of dominate that Iowa did when you compare Gable and Cael at the same points. But go back and look at the 1987 NCAA Finals matches when Iowa's 9 year run was stopped by Iowa State. The caliber of Wrestling is just not the same. The effort, the toughness, the heart...all there. The Mat awareness, and the technique...not so much. 

 

Edit-The one I just watched today started with Jackson from MSU at 126 winning the title and had all the matches, but this works. 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by scourge165

[El Luchador]

33 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Who said they COULDN'T scramble? Most of those old timers will tell you themselves the Wrestling technique is better today by a WIDE margin(by the way, one of them sent me this exact video within 30 minutes).

You can't compare the scrambling back then with the scrambling now. 

I'm also not sure how you come to the conclusion that Wrestlers transitioned quicker from Folkstyle to Freestyle. You've got guys winning Olympic Golds while in College now, you have World Medalists NOT winning NCAA Titles. You've got more success in Freestyle now. I suppose it's taken longer for some because they've been blocked by other gold medalist. Dake, Taylor, Howe by JB. Cox by Snyder.

Guys did not transition to  Freestyle,  our youth wrestling was FS. You entered scholastic wrestling as a Freestyle wrestler.  When your school season ended so did Folkstyle. 

[scourge165]

21 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

Guys did not transition to  Freestyle,  our youth wrestling was FS. You entered scholastic wrestling as a Freestyle wrestler.  When your school season ended so did Folkstyle. 

 

3 hours ago, El Luchador said:

The collegiate style of Wrestling from the 80s and 90s produced much more international ready wrestlers than we are seeing today.

This is what I was referring to. I don't agree with the premise. 

We're seeing a whole lot of College Wrestlers winning Medals at the World Championships, or at the Olympic level while still in HS. Guys like Burroughs, Snyder, Stevenson, Yianni, Fix.

Dake, Howe, Taylor...all were ready to compete at the international level, Burroughs was in there way. 

I don't see how guys in the 80s and definitely not the 90s were "much more international ready wrestlers," than we're seeing today. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

 

Good points about PSU wrestlers praising Cael. The jury is still out for me again, because he doesn't really say much so it's hard to tell what's going on in his head. Iowa wrestlers similarly exalt Brands but I don't think he's a coaching genius. Don't get me wrong (I could never have said that on HR) I like Brands fine, but don't believe is he more than what he shows us. Gable was more. Cael might be more. I do get a bit of a zen master vibe from him, like maybe he says things to calm his wrestlers down and help them focus... but then Cunningham does the work to make it happen, lol. On the other hand, I think ol' Tommie could benefit from better support in the room than M* and Telford or even Terry. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. It's an interesting discussion.

I hear a tremendous amount of love and respect for Terry and his coaching from most guys on that team.  Really, almost everyone he has worked with, including Cejudo.  Terry comes across as a maniac, but I think he is pretty good in his role as an assistant, especially with the smaller guys.

[PortaJohn]

17 hours ago, El Luchador said:

Well I disagree.  The styles were different and you draw way to much of a conclusion from what you view as being better.  The pace of the matches back then was much harsher and the stalemate calls kept the need to scramble to a minimum. There were also many more programs which also means a larger pool of talent. To say a Guy like John Smith couldn't wrestle with today's athletes is just foolish.  The collegiate style of Wrestling from the 80s and 90s produced much more international ready wrestlers than we are seeing today. I also think today's wrestlers are much more narrow in their skills set. Yesterday's wrestlers were more closely trained like international athletes than today's are. Today's wrestlers definitely have worse Par Terre offense and way worse par terre defense. Past wrestlers adapted their freestyle to Folkstyle and the opposite happens today. 

This post is wrong on so many levels.

1) the athletes today have better conditioning. 

2) John Smith's talents would not resonate today at an elite level

3) the wrestlers are more internationally ready today then at any other point in USA wrestling. Like so many posters on these boards. STOP rewriting history

4) today's wrestlers skills are more narrow? Are you serious? What ever drugs you are taking pleas dm, I'll send you my address because I want whatever you're taking

5) you're last few sentences on par terre are just wrong on every level. 

 

 

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

This post is wrong on so many levels.

1) the athletes today have better conditioning. 

2) John Smith's talents would not resonate today at an elite level

3) the wrestlers are more internationally ready today then at any other point in USA wrestling. Like so many posters on these boards. STOP rewriting history

4) today's wrestlers skills are more narrow? Are you serious? What ever drugs you are taking pleas dm, I'll send you my address because I want whatever you're taking

5) you're last few sentences on par terre are just wrong on every level. 

 

 

 

 

Interesting.  I've heard one of today's top coaches say John Smith is one of the few American wrestlers from 30ish years ago who's skills WOULD translate.  

Also, in the 90s and early 2000s, American par terre offense was way better than it is today.  This is especially in comparison to the wrest of the world.  Schultz was a beast on top.  Smith.  Cross in his Olympic run.  Look at Zeke's win over Jordanov.  Townshend Saunders made a final based largely on par terre offense.  Slay gutting Satiev.  Baumgartner was sold.  That is just off the top of my head, but all those guys were threats to score just about every time they got on top.  Who is dangerous from par terre today?  Dake with his gut.  Taylor with folkstyle.  Who else is a threat against anyone?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

16 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

"I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for."

---------------------------------

Cael & Cunningham.

Kurdelmeier & Gable.

Don't forget Gary Kurdelmeier had the bright idea to hire Dan Gable - he put together a coaching staff that got Iowa its first NCAA title in history. Iowa State was the big dog. Iowa with the two started winning, then Gary retired and turned it over to Gable - the rest is history.

Cael has Cunningham - smart and works well with the wrestlers. A great combination. Casey gets a ton of interest for every open coaching job. But - Why take them? He and Cael and Cody have built something great and it keeps on going. Credit is due to all of them, but..., without Cael I doubt they would be as good for as long.

Gable was magic. Cael is magic. No doubt about it - both deserve all the success. They are unique.

A thing that is interesting to me regarding Cael vs. Gable, and I have brought this up before, is how they have won their titles.  Someone ran the numbers a couple months ago.  Gable was averaging an absurd number of All-Americans every year, 7 or 8?  Ridiculous numbers.  Cael has mostly been doing it with 5 or so absolute monsters every year and getting his points that way, but not as many placers.  

I don't know what this means, which is better, or anything.  I just find it interesting.

[Le duke]

18 hours ago, El Luchador said:

2 old timers that can't scramble. 

also note that a DII wrestler make the finals. Another significant bit of talent to contend with. 

 

That's the example of two guys who would stall a modern guy like Aaron Brooks out of a match? Seriously? 

A modern 184 like Brooks isn't getting into a scramble with those guys. He's just taking them down, repeatedly. If the video had no title and no names/scoring graphic, and you told me that was a high school match in 2020-2023, I would believe you. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Le duke

[CHROMEBIRD]

16 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Right. It's not an indictment on the older Wrestlers. As I mentioned, you had so many guys who didn't start until HS or in HS. 

It's just...so obvious and the reason is simple. You have a kid who's getting private lessons from NCAA Champs or AAs vs Wrestlers who grew up when Club Wrestling was rare or who just started as a Freshmen and what do you expect?

 

As for the idea that they called Stalling so much quicker then, look at Jim Heffernan in the '87 NCAAs vs the Iowa State kid or the St. John match you posted. It was and remains hit or miss. Wrestlers today are more...just savvy. How many times do you see the ref get to a 4 count and the top Wrestler pulls his foot out of bounds? The Mat awareness, the defense and counter Wrestling...I had this discussion with MSPart when I said I thought PSU would win the vast majority of the matchups between "all-time greats" because it was presented as if you took Ed Banach and matched him up against Brooks or Nickal, who'd win. He then asked if I thought those Wrestlers with the same time and training would adjust and...of course I do. 

 

But I don't see how you can argue just the old style of Wrestling would beat today without the benefits the Wrestlers have had today...that doesn't make sense to me, and again, it's anecdotal, but a couple of guys who won NCAA titles in the 80s who've mentioned how much better the technique is(it was specifically in regard to Banach FTR). 

 

This is a losing argument for EVERY generation IMO. No sport is "better" in terms of skill now than it was 20-30 years ago. Wrestling in particular, guys develop techniques to stop the best Wrestlers or the most effective techniques. 

I still don't think PSU has reached the level of dominate that Iowa did when you compare Gable and Cael at the same points. But go back and look at the 1987 NCAA Finals matches when Iowa's 9 year run was stopped by Iowa State. The caliber of Wrestling is just not the same. The effort, the toughness, the heart...all there. The Mat awareness, and the technique...not so much. 

 

Edit-The one I just watched today started with Jackson from MSU at 126 winning the title and had all the matches, but this works. 

 

Good stuff. I appreciate your posts, always knowledgeable and well-thought out. I think you might be smarter than Gable and Cael (j/k). I've also looked up a number of the old videos and matches you mention and have been enjoying them.

[El Luchador]

4 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

This post is wrong on so many levels.

1) the athletes today have better conditioning. 

2) John Smith's talents would not resonate today at an elite level

3) the wrestlers are more internationally ready today then at any other point in USA wrestling. Like so many posters on these boards. STOP rewriting history

4) today's wrestlers skills are more narrow? Are you serious? What ever drugs you are taking pleas dm, I'll send you my address because I want whatever you're taking

5) you're last few sentences on par terre are just wrong on every level. 

 

 

 

 

Saying John Smith couldn't win today is so obtuse it's pathetic.  If you think our par Terre is even remotely on par with the rest of the world,  then you don't understand par Terre wrestling.  Today's wrestlers have no upper body skill at all. The difference between Burroughs and Smith are almost zero. One shot a low single and the other a double. Wrestling is cyclical as much as anything. Not understanding and respecting the past is a foolish arrogance. This country hasn't performed well at all until very recently so I would not be to arrogant on the backs of 4 wrestlers.  Today's wrestlers do need half the conditioning of wrestlers from 25 years ago. You'll never understand unless you have done it. Refs would DQ you out the door if even if you were up by a major and weren't attacking like you  we down by 1 with 30 seconds to go. I know the difference because I've done both, as I've been around for a while. 

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Good stuff. I appreciate your posts, always knowledgeable and well-thought out. I think you might be smarter than Gable and Cael (j/k). I've also looked up a number of the old videos and matches you mention and have been enjoying them.

You THINK I might be...and now you're kidding?

Well...you're clearly not as bright as I thought you were!

LOL...no, of course, they're geniuses. One of the most difficult things...and it seems SO simple, but one of the most difficult things I had doing in the short time I coached, was getting the best Wrestlers to open up and take shots and attack and Wrestle loose vs their best competition. And it didn't always work. We had one guy in the Quarters one year who was so vastly superior on his feet, but he just had a mental block. It wasn't until he got tilted and had ~1:50 of RT against him that this kid started attacking. He finished up with 2 TDs in the 3rd, a Stalling call and then probably 3-4 more shots that would have been TDs if he wasn't down.

Same problem in HS, same problem I know I dealt with.

They both managed to get their guys to always attack. That sounds simple and while some guys are Bryce Andronian and they're always attacking, most aren't. The whole Va Tech team doesn't. The WHOLE Iowa and PSU teams under those legends did.

 

And the way Gable got his guys to just out-work everyone, the way Cael gets his guys to relax, they're leaders before anything.
And then of course, Gable recruited tough kids who fit his style, Cael has a way of picking kids who fit his, but both of them had to have the success to be able to recruit with so much success. 

[Fadzaev2]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:08 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Authored by Nolan Zavoral, I believe?

It's in my library....that sounds right.

 

[Fadzaev2]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:41 PM, El Luchador said:

Well I disagree.  The styles were different and you draw way to much of a conclusion from what you view as being better.  The pace of the matches back then was much harsher and the stalemate calls kept the need to scramble to a minimum. There were also many more programs which also means a larger pool of talent. To say a Guy like John Smith couldn't wrestle with today's athletes is just foolish.  The collegiate style of Wrestling from the 80s and 90s produced much more international ready wrestlers than we are seeing today. I also think today's wrestlers are much more narrow in their skills set. Yesterday's wrestlers were more closely trained like international athletes than today's are. Today's wrestlers definitely have worse Par Terre offense and way worse par terre defense. Past wrestlers adapted their freestyle to Folkstyle and the opposite happens today. 

In regards to par tierre, they used to give you a lot more time to work on top, before they put you back on your feetl.

On 4/5/2023 at 9:39 PM, AgaveMaria said:

"I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it.

In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for."

---------------------------------

Cael & Cunningham.

Kurdelmeier & Gable.

Don't forget Gary Kurdelmeier had the bright idea to hire Dan Gable - he put together a coaching staff that got Iowa its first NCAA title in history. Iowa State was the big dog. Iowa with the two started winning, then Gary retired and turned it over to Gable - the rest is history.

Cael has Cunningham - smart and works well with the wrestlers. A great combination. Casey gets a ton of interest for every open coaching job. But - Why take them? He and Cael and Cody have built something great and it keeps on going. Credit is due to all of them, but..., without Cael I doubt they would be as good for as long.

Gable was magic. Cael is magic. No doubt about it - both deserve all the success. They are unique.

 

16 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

A thing that is interesting to me regarding Cael vs. Gable, and I have brought this up before, is how they have won their titles.  Someone ran the numbers a couple months ago.  Gable was averaging an absurd number of All-Americans every year, 7 or 8?  Ridiculous numbers.  Cael has mostly been doing it with 5 or so absolute monsters every year and getting his points that way, but not as many placers.  

I don't know what this means, which is better, or anything.  I just find it interesting.

Good stuff!