PSU Best Ever vs Iowa Best Ever - who wins?

[11986]

12 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

What would Iowa's All-Time Second Team look like? I'm sure there would be plenty of debate but my gut tells me even the backup squad would give PSU's GOATs a tough go... Ironside, Lewis, Davis, Alger, Terry, Metcalf, McDonough, TJ, Steiners, Schwab... does Mocco count? Still, a lot of hammers to pick from.

I've got Davis and Metcalf on my 1st team posted earlier. Agree Iowa, and PSU, could both piece together very tough 2nd teams as well. 

12 hours ago, Gus said:

I’m not convinced that Lewis isn’t first team. He’s an Olympic champion and would likely be 3x ncaa champion if not for an elbow dislocation. 

Agreed he obviously suffers because of the senior year 7th place after the horrible injury. Note also the guys he beat in finals for the 2 he got - Azevedo was a 3 x finalist, 1 time champ; Burley a 4 time finalist, 2 time champ. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jchapman]

48 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Let me give you the short story on Bobby Jones vs Tiger Woods. This will offer you one more example of this very basic premise.

Bobby Jones won a higher percentage of the golf majors he played in than any golfer who ever lived. The second guy on that list is not even close, so on that statistic alone anyone could make the claim that he is the best golfer who ever lived. 

But would Bobby Jones at his very best be predicted to defeat a modern golfer like Tiger Woods?  No.

When Jones played they didn't use wedges, they used a far inferior club called a niblick. His "irons" and "drivers" were made out of persimmon wood. The ball he used was a wound rubber band covered with sap from the balata tree. And Jones felt good about that golf ball because at least it wasn't "gutta percha" or, worse, a "feathery". 

Modern golfers like Tiger Woods use graphite and carbon in his golf clubs, modern resin layered golf balls covered in urethane that travel much farther than balatas, wedges that were precision milled, and he had launch monitors to illustrate every minute imperceptible to the human eye statistic about his golf swing, its plane and his launch angle. 

Golf has evolved. Jones as he knew and played the game would not be competitive on today's professional tour. 

Bringing Bobby Jones into the future and hypothesizing that same win rate is folly. There is no way to do it. 

If you brought the Banachs or McIlreavys into today's world the easier leap to make is that they might have just chosen to wrestle for Cael Sanderson. He is the best right now and his strategies have beaten those used by Dan Gable. Just utilizing the skill set they had learned on the past when they wrestled and bringing it forward to wrestle today I think the PSU Sanderson trained wrestler wins. 

If anyone wants to see an actual niblick then head to your nearby muni course and look for the 88 year old golfers. Some of those guys still keep one in the bag. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. 

So my matchup is Kemp vs O'Toole:  Neither is an Iowa or PSU trained wrestler.

[Pinnacle]

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

So my matchup is Kemp vs O'Toole:  Neither is an Iowa or PSU trained wrestler.

Kemp vs O Toole is probably a nice match, but you may as well quiz people about Milo of Croton where this discussion is concerned. 

Milo of Croton vs Sadulaev, who ya got? Lots of ancient Greeks will be rolling over in their graves if you pick Sadulaev.

The 1970s and Antiquity are one in the same here. 

[headshuck]

I’d argue bowlers are no better today than 75 years ago.

[jchapman]

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

Kemp vs O Toole is probably a nice match, but you may as well quiz people about Milo of Croton where this discussion is concerned. 

Milo of Croton vs Sadulaev, who ya got? Lots of ancient Greeks will be rolling over in their graves if you pick Sadulaev.

The 1970s and Antiquity are one in the same here. 

Nice hyperbole, Kemp coached Askren on the Olympic team and Askren coached O'Toole.  

[scourge165]

14 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Nice hyperbole, Kemp coached Askren on the Olympic team and Askren coached O'Toole.  

There's a guy who was born in 1790 who's got Grandchildren alive today...

President Tyler.

I really don't see it having any bearing on this discussion, but it is WILD to me. 

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

Let me give you the short story on Bobby Jones vs Tiger Woods. This will offer you one more example of this very basic premise.

Bobby Jones won a higher percentage of the golf majors he played in than any golfer who ever lived. The second guy on that list is not even close, so on that statistic alone anyone could make the claim that he is the best golfer who ever lived. 

But would Bobby Jones at his very best be predicted to defeat a modern golfer like Tiger Woods?  No.

When Jones played they didn't use wedges, they used a far inferior club called a niblick. His "irons" and "drivers" were made out of persimmon wood. The ball he used was a wound rubber band covered with sap from the balata tree. And Jones felt good about that golf ball because at least it wasn't "gutta percha" or, worse, a "feathery". 

Modern golfers like Tiger Woods use graphite and carbon in his golf clubs, modern resin layered golf balls covered in urethane that travel much farther than balatas, wedges that were precision milled, and he had launch monitors to illustrate every minute imperceptible to the human eye statistic about his golf swing, its plane and his launch angle. 

Golf has evolved. Jones as he knew and played the game would not be competitive on today's professional tour. 

Bringing Bobby Jones into the future and hypothesizing that same win rate is folly. There is no way to do it. 

If you brought the Banachs or McIlreavys into today's world the easier leap to make is that they might have just chosen to wrestle for Cael Sanderson. He is the best right now and his strategies have beaten those used by Dan Gable. Just utilizing the skill set they had learned on the past when they wrestled and bringing it forward to wrestle today I think the PSU Sanderson trained wrestler wins. 

If anyone wants to see an actual niblick then head to your nearby muni course and look for the 88 year old golfers. Some of those guys still keep one in the bag. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. 

Yeah, but when you do this, then a AAA hitter is going to be a better pitcher than Cy Young. Babe Ruth in today's game would be maybe a good HS player, perhaps a Juco. 
The Packers teams of the 60s would get beaten by a good SEC team now.

I generally assume we're doing this in a "how dominant were they," and then using their level of greatness vs their era.

 

I've heard National Champs, AAs, Wrestlers from the 80s(even early 90s) talk about how the technique is SO much better today. The BIGGEST Gable and Iowa fanboi kinda chuckled at Gable's wrestling and then said he wouldn't be an AA today. Anecdotal, but what is Gable going to do when they're diving over and trying to pass the ankle and all that?

 

So I guess it's how great were they vs how great are athletes today. Mcllravy for instance, he was incredible. Again, worse a lot of guys out. 16-15 first NC, then an 8-3 win, controlled that one, lost when he couldn't quite come back and then won an OT match. 
Was he actually better on his feet than Zain as has been suggested? Or did he wear guys down and then start racking up TDs? Zain wasn't exactly a slouch on his feet.

 

These exercises are just kinda pointless if you do it the way you're suggesting. You're top 10 at almost always going to be from the past ~20 years. I'd say only Cael and Abas(arguably) would be on the list of all time greats who'd win right now who wrestled pre-2000...but that statement's gonna go over like a fart in church...on a hot day(particularly among the Iowa crowd). 

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, jchapman said:

I would love to see Kemp vs O'Toole in an all-time fantasy match at 158/165.  Do you think O'Toole would tie Kemp into knots?

I do actually. 

 

Kemp was incredible, but I don't think this version of Kemp could hang with O'Toole's scrambling. 

I still think Kemp's the better Wrestler...just like I think Babe Ruth is a better baseball player than...Joey Meyer, but if you're asking how 1970s/80s Kemp would do with O'Toole right now, I think O'Toole would really get him.

[mspart]

Who on this team would lose?   I don't see McIlravy, Williams, Banach, Campbell, Banach, Brands, Lee losing to anyone from PSU.    It would be interesting but I think there is too much grit and technique with these folks.  

Iowa

125 Spencer Lee (3x champ)

133 Tom Brands (3x champ, Olympic gold)

141 Jeff McGinness (2x champ)

149 Incoln McIlravy (3x champ, Olympic bronze)

157 Jim Zalesky (3x champ)

165 Joe Williams (3x champ, Olympian)

174 Joe Scarpello (3x champ)

184 Ed Banach (3x champ, Olympic gold)

197 Chris Campbell (2x champ, Olympic bronze)

HWT Lou Banach (2x champ, Olympic gold)

Just my humble $0.02.

mspart

[Threadkilla]

Talking about fantasy matchups. I'd like to see Chris Taylor vs Tab Thacker.   

[PSUSMC]

Regardless of era/time, both programs have impressive wrestlers at every weight.  For PSU I'd swap out Mega with Jeff Prescott (and also adjust everyone that was at the old weights up 1 to reflect the 7 pounds, ergo 134 is 141 - not 133).

Guys like Ed Ruth, Quentin Wright, Mark Perry, Matt McDonnough (frosh through Jr he was a good as any) and others not being 1s at their weights is reflective of just how good these wrestlers/programs have been.

[mspart]

Someone above was arguing that Cael has demonstrated he is much better than Gable at coaching, which is a stretch because they never actually coached against each other.   They are using the Brands as the equivalent of Gable.   Gable was tough  as anyone on the teams he coached could attest to.   But not only that, he was mentally into each wrestler and was able to pull the very best from each one.   The Brands are good but not that good.   Gable had an instinct that allowed him to mentally get inside their heads and then get the best out of them.   Cael is proving to be like that as well.   But I don't think we can make a comparison to Gable based on current results.  Not yet.   That said, Cael is the gold standard for college wrestling currently.  

mspart

[Fadzaev2]

5 hours ago, 11986 said:

1 hour ago, PSUSMC said:

Regardless of era/time, both programs have impressive wrestlers at every weight.  For PSU I'd swap out Mega with Jeff Prescott (and also adjust everyone that was at the old weights up 1 to reflect the 7 pounds, ergo 134 is 141 - not 133).

Guys like Ed Ruth, Quentin Wright, Mark Perry, Matt McDonnough (frosh through Jr he was a good as any) and others not being 1s at their weights is reflective of just how good these wrestlers/programs have been.

I like Prescott as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 minute ago, mspart said:

Someone above was arguing that Cael has demonstrated he is much better than Gable at coaching, which is a stretch because they never actually coached against each other.   They are using the Brands as the equivalent of Gable.   Gable was tough  as anyone on the teams he coached could attest to.   But not only that, he was mentally into each wrestler and was able to pull the very best from each one.   The Brands are good but not that good.   Gable had an instinct that allowed him to mentally get inside their heads and then get the best out of them.   Cael is proving to be like that as well.   But I don't think we can make a comparison to Gable based on current results.  Not yet.   That said, Cael is the gold standard for college wrestling currently.  

mspart

That's exactly right. Brands runs a Gable-style team in a world that has moved past that type of coaching. The powers that be wanted another Gable and ol' Tommie fits the mold like no other (well, maybe not Ironside). Brands has been trying to evolve his coaching style but it's been in inches rather than miles. Maybe he's being held back by the "Iowa Style" institution, maybe it's because he's trying to figure it out but doesn't know what to do. But I do think that Gable was much smarter than both Brands and Sanderson.

[Zahnarzt]

PSU all-time 2nd team

125 - Jeff Prescott / Nick Suriano

133 - Sanshiro Abe

141 - Cary Kolat

149 - Frank Molinaro

157 - Bubba Jenkins

165 - Vincenzo Joseph

174 - Mark Hall / Matt Brown

184 - Ed Ruth

197 - Quentin Wright

285 - Anthony Cassar

 

Not confident in my picks for 157 or 285…I’m sure I’m forgetting someone.  

[Zahnarzt]

Jeremy Hunter probably deserves more of a mention than Suriano, given Suriano’s short career in the blue&white.  Prescott and Mega definitely the top 2 lightweights IMO however.  

[Zahnarzt]

Who’s got OkSt’s best of lineup?  Between Uetake, John Smith, Pat Smith, Rosholt, they should be right there with PSU and Iowa.  I’m not knowledgeable enough to fill out all 10 weights. 

[PortaJohn]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

But I do think that Gable was much smarter than both Brands and Sanderson.

Definitely disagree with that statement.  Gable's style is more simple.  This is not meant to be a knock on him.  Let's say more like Khabib's approach to MMA.  But all three men you listed have equal IQ's in terms of wrestling

[Zahnarzt]

Amazing what you can find out on Google.  Doing some research, Oklahoma State’s all-time lineup is unbelievable in terms of # of NCAA titles.  
 

125 - Yorjiro Uetake - 3x (undefeated)

133 - Eric Guerrero - 3x

141 - John Smith - 2x

149 - Stanley Henson - 3x

157 - Pat Smith - 4x

165 - Alex Dieringer - 3x

174 - Chris Perry / Chris Pendleton (both 2x)

184 - Jake Rosholt - 3x

197 - AJ Ferrari - 1x (likely multiple time champ if he could keep it together)

HWT - Jimmy Jackson / Dick Hutton (both 3x)

 

What’s crazy is some of these guys go back to the era where they were only eligible for 3 titles.  So some of those 3x’ers would have likely been 4x’ers.  
 

Disappointing I couldn’t find anyone to slot into 197 better than Ferrari.  Geoff Baum deserves as mention.  Would have liked to get Johnny Hendricks or Jordan Oliver somewhere into the lineup by shuffling weights around. 

[Gus]

24 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

Amazing what you can find out on Google.  Doing some research, Oklahoma State’s all-time lineup is unbelievable in terms of # of NCAA titles.  
 

125 - Yorjiro Uetake - 3x (undefeated)

133 - Eric Guerrero - 3x

141 - John Smith - 2x

149 - Stanley Henson - 3x

157 - Pat Smith - 4x

165 - Alex Dieringer - 3x

174 - Chris Perry / Chris Pendleton (both 2x)

184 - Jake Rosholt - 3x

197 - AJ Ferrari - 1x (likely multiple time champ if he could keep it together)

HWT - Jimmy Jackson / Dick Hutton (both 3x)

 

What’s crazy is some of these guys go back to the era where they were only eligible for 3 titles.  So some of those 3x’ers would have likely been 4x’ers.  
 

Disappointing I couldn’t find anyone to slot into 197 better than Ferrari.  Geoff Baum deserves as mention.  Would have liked to get Johnny Hendricks or Jordan Oliver somewhere into the lineup by shuffling weights around. 

Didn’t Rosholt win a title at 197 also? Could you slot him into 197 and then have a different 184?

[Gus]

35 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

Amazing what you can find out on Google.  Doing some research, Oklahoma State’s all-time lineup is unbelievable in terms of # of NCAA titles.  
 

125 - Yorjiro Uetake - 3x (undefeated)

133 - Eric Guerrero - 3x

141 - John Smith - 2x

149 - Stanley Henson - 3x

157 - Pat Smith - 4x

165 - Alex Dieringer - 3x

174 - Chris Perry / Chris Pendleton (both 2x)

184 - Jake Rosholt - 3x

197 - AJ Ferrari - 1x (likely multiple time champ if he could keep it together)

HWT - Jimmy Jackson / Dick Hutton (both 3x)

 

What’s crazy is some of these guys go back to the era where they were only eligible for 3 titles.  So some of those 3x’ers would have likely been 4x’ers.  
 

Disappointing I couldn’t find anyone to slot into 197 better than Ferrari.  Geoff Baum deserves as mention.  Would have liked to get Johnny Hendricks or Jordan Oliver somewhere into the lineup by shuffling weights around. 

Got it. Move Rosholt to 197 and plug in Chris Barnes at 184. 

[Zahnarzt]

1 minute ago, Gus said:

Got it. Move Rosholt to 197 and plug in Chris Barnes at 184. 

How many titles does Barnes have?

[cangemi]

22 hours ago, Gus said:

I’m not convinced that Lewis isn’t first team. He’s an Olympic champion and would likely be 3x ncaa champion if not for an elbow dislocation. 

I think i go lewis . Pin opportunity 6 pts

[Gus]

38 minutes ago, Zahnarzt said:

How many titles does Barnes have?

2x Champ. I don’t think he surrendered a takedown in his senior season either. 

[Gus]

10 minutes ago, cangemi said:

I think i go lewis . Pin opportunity 6 pts

I tend to agree with this. Dude was a hammer and always looking to score and pin.