Chael’s take on Spencer Lee

[LJB]

doesn't exactly feel like it, but, whatever...

[dragit]

2 hours ago, Idaho said:

Same... and I agree. Super nice guy in person... talked to him this weekend and came away with a great impression of the guy. Funny how people want to point out all these little things instead of the point he was making.... back side ffts are a huge problem and it needs to be remedied. You know, the same stuff we complain about on  here all time. 

We do complain about that here all the time.  But I think some of us thought that, aside from the factual errors, his post was meandering and disjointed and not well taken with respect to the protagonist of his story, Spencer Lee, who was probably far, far past banged up, and may have been on his fourth torn ACL last weekend. 

On the other hand, though, I will say as I did with respect to Marinelli a couple of years ago, it would be helpful if the team (or the wrestler, if that's the HIPAA requirement) would simply state what the condition is.  Their season is over, so I don't see the competitive disadvantage problem.  This is different than McDonough gutting it out and losing on the mat and refusing to name an injury following his loss on the backside; Lee and Marinelli MFF'd, so to plainly state the injury is more relevant, and it also seems to me like it's less of an issue that they're making excuses for why they lost on the backside, since they didn't wrestle on the backside.  The failure to give an explanation under the circumstances does create more speculation.  In other high profile sports situations, it's pretty well accepted that the baseball/football/basketball player will state why they aren't competing for the rest of the season.  Given that the tournament was televised in prime time three nights on the number one sports station and the profile of the Iowa program and the most famous wrestler in the country, it stands out compared to other sports that the public gets nothing.  

[fishbane]

3 hours ago, Idaho said:

back side ffts are a huge problem and it needs to be remedied.

Respectfully disagree.  Backside matches are not what is driving viewership on ESPN.  That's the championship matches.  ESPN does not care about Saturday morning consolation matches.  This is probably the most skipped session of the tournament by in person spectators except for maybe Thursday morning.  When not personally attending I don't know I have ever watched it live.

It is also a problem that doesn't exist in other sports because they simply don't have them.  Other sports with losers brackets aren't really consolation brackets at all.  Its a double elimination tournament like in college baseball.  NFL doesn't have a consolation bracket.  MLB doesn't have a consolation bracket.  ATP events do not have a consolation bracket.  Stanley Cup Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  NBA Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  MLS Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  US Open Cup does not have a consolation bracket.  College football playoff does not have a consolation bracket.  WNBA playoffs do not have a consolation bracket.  March Madness does not have a consolation bracket.  UEFA Champions League doesn't really have a consolation bracket. 

What exactly makes this a huge problem to you?

[Idaho]

3 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Respectfully disagree.  Backside matches are not what is driving viewership on ESPN.  That's the championship matches.  ESPN does not care about Saturday morning consolation matches.  This is probably the most skipped session of the tournament by in person spectators except for maybe Thursday morning.  When not personally attending I don't know I have ever watched it live.

It is also a problem that doesn't exist in other sports because they simply don't have them.  Other sports with losers brackets aren't really consolation brackets at all.  Its a double elimination tournament like in college baseball.  NFL doesn't have a consolation bracket.  MLB doesn't have a consolation bracket.  ATP events do not have a consolation bracket.  Stanley Cup Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  NBA Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  MLS Playoffs don't have a consolation bracket.  US Open Cup does not have a consolation bracket.  College football playoff does not have a consolation bracket.  WNBA playoffs do not have a consolation bracket.  March Madness does not have a consolation bracket.  UEFA Champions League doesn't really have a consolation bracket. 

What exactly makes this a huge problem to you?

Did you watch the video where he states his reasons at the end?  It also helps if you read my response properly - " Funny how people want to point out all these little things instead of the point he was making.... back side ffts are a huge problem and it needs to be remedied. You know, the same stuff we complain about on  here all time."   I was referencing the point he  made  in the video about it - that he said back side ffts are a huge problem.  

Do I agree with his point that it's a huge problem? For the most part I do. Keep in mind his point was not just in reference to the NCAA  tournament- he also mentioned the US open he takes his family to  - You pay one large price for a tournament ticket, but you don't get to see backside matches that would be good matches to see. It happens all the time at tournaments during the season, even the conference tournaments  -just med fft out, it doesn't' go on your record, you avoid a loss... but the fans don't get to see the match. It's a sore topic on the forum for fans all the time. Tat's a different beast then the end of the year NCAA tournament obviously. So as a whole, yes it is an issue for the sport. We all know it is. Are there certain situations where it is valid. Yes.   As a side note, most of the sports you mentioned are pro team sports...and really, I don't care what other sports do. Wrestling is an individual, amateur sport that has uniquely been  this way for a long time. I believe  it's a positive aspect to the sport that 8 people place through the consolation rounds to become an AA. I also much appreciated it when I competed to be able to come back with a loss and still be on the podium. Just my opinion of course. 

 

[mspart]

Was it worth it for Lee to forfeit if it saved his knees from further danger and allow his Olympic aspirations to take flight?   I'm guessing this was his thought process. 

mspart

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, dragit said:

The failure to give an explanation under the circumstances does create more speculation.  In other high profile sports situations, it's pretty well accepted that the baseball/football/basketball player will state why they aren't competing for the rest of the season.  Given that the tournament was televised in prime time three nights on the number one sports station and the profile of the Iowa program and the most famous wrestler in the country, it stands out compared to other sports that the public gets nothing.  

You are talking about two different situations. Guys who get an injury during the season typically wait for swelling to go down, get x-rays and MRIs - get results -  get a consultation of treatment (i.e. surgery), sometimes get a second opinion - then when all options are exhausted and a final decision is reached, an announcement is made they will miss the remainder of the season. This takes time.  I am not sure why you would think, even logically,  that the public would get an explanation less than 48 hours after the tournament has ended and he probably hasn't even gotten an MRI to confirm anything. Now that the season is over, it really has no bearing on anything except that people want to know if he was injured or not.  I would agree however, that wrestling seems to be  sport that keeps injuries under raps more than other sports. 

[Idaho]

2 minutes ago, mspart said:

Was it worth it for Lee to forfeit if it saved his knees from further danger and allow his Olympic aspirations to take flight?   I'm guessing this was his thought process. 

mspart

If he would have made beat Ramos and made the finals,  should he have forfeited to Glory to save his knees from further damage and allow his Olympic aspirations to take flight? 

It's easy to frame a question with only one possible answer to that everyone agrees to. 

[dragit]

11 minutes ago, Idaho said:

You are talking about two different situations. Guys who get an injury during the season typically wait for swelling to go down, get x-rays and MRIs - get results -  get a consultation of treatment (i.e. surgery), sometimes get a second opinion - then when all options are exhausted and a final decision is reached, an announcement is made they will miss the remainder of the season. This takes time.  I am not sure why you would think, even logically,  that the public would get an explanation less than 48 hours after the tournament has ended and he probably hasn't even gotten an MRI to confirm anything. Now that the season is over, it really has no bearing on anything except that people want to know if he was injured or not.  I would agree however, that wrestling seems to be  sport that keeps injuries under raps more than other sports. 

Respectfully disagree.  

My guess is they know pretty well if not exactly what the injury is.  One can infer from watching him that one or both of the knees were reinjured.  Furthermore one would assume that he saw a doctor before not weighing in Saturday and often the doctor can diagnose.

Even if that weren't the case, they could easily say, Spencer is not going to wrestle Saturday.  He has a knee (or whatever body part) injury that is too painful to wrestle/could get much worse if he wrestles.  He's going to get more tests, evaluatethe situation, and make some decisions. That's not hard. Then we have the basics and people aren't left to speculate why a guy who wrestled Friday night and walked off the mat under his own power didn't compete in an ongoing tournament.

To not at least do that is way way outside the mainstream of sports when there is a sold out arena and wall to wall ESPN coverage.  It's pretty basic.

It's even more of an issue when the athlete is making real money on NIL deals.

This has happened before.  Marinelli got upset as a top seed and then MFF'd with no explanation.  Brands gave a cryptic statement which was so bizarre and evasive that it created the inference that he did not have an injury that precluded wrestling.  Which I'm guessing from the few data points we have, including much later statements from Marinelli, was wrong as he had a serious rib injury.  But, again, he finished his match and walked off under his own power.  They should have just said, he's got a rib injury and on medical advice won't wrestle. 

Geez i was originally worked up about Cael and now I'm just mad at everybody.  Where is the board's curmudgeon prize and why isn't it attached to my screen name?

[AgaveMaria]

Optics make it look like he was embarassed to be seen in public. So, rather than appear matside or openly with the team and announde the Medical Forfeits - it Looks Like he ran and hid.

Even if he did not wrestle with injury it looks like he did not handle the loss like Gable and Karelin. Both beaten while riding high, both stood and congratulated the winner - in public.

Running and hiding does not solve anything. As we see it only sparked rumors and crazy theories. You win, you stand and be seen. You lose, you stand and be seen. In this case you stand and cheer on your team and do it publicly. Spencer did not do it.

Hope the injuries heal so he can come back on the International stage and find success, but more importantly learn to live with reality no matter positive or negative.

[Theo Brixton]

8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

What's the point?   As others said, slim chance giving additional team points to the other guys would have resulted in Lee wrestling.

There is something to be said about picking yourself up after defeat and moving forward. There is honor in that. The Brands constantly preach to "get the next best thing" and not without good reason. It has nothing to do with the team score.

Again, if he doesn't show up to the US Open, I will assume there was some additional injury. If there was no difference to his health from earlier in the season, he should have wrestled. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Keep in mind his point was not just in reference to the NCAA  tournament- he also mentioned the US open he takes his family to  - You pay one large price for a tournament ticket, but you don't get to see backside matches that would be good matches to see. 

Completely disagree.  The consolations are not that significant.  The reason tournaments bundle the tickets like that is to sell out the less premium sessions.  Session 5 at NCAAs isn't selling out at the price they charge now.  

Sure I'd like to see these matches, but there are so many good matches happening at one I couldn't possibly watch them all anyway.  I don't think the NCAA should try and force unpaid athletes that are injured or banged up to wrestling matches that they would rather not and matter little to the team race.  Just pay increasing prize money for placement and it fixes nearly all issues.  Not sure a few thousand dollars would get Lee to wrestle Saturday.  Only a close team race would do that.

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Ffts happens all the time at tournaments during the season, even the conference tournaments  -just med fft out, it doesn't' go on your record, you avoid a loss... but the fans don't get to see the match. It's a sore topic on the forum for fans all the time. Tat's a different beast then the end of the year NCAA tournament obviously. So as a whole, yes it is an issue for the sport. We all know it is. Are there certain situations where it is valid. Yes. 

Yeah that happens and it's annoying but I don't think there is anything to be done especially for matches on the backside.

For in season tournaments like opens, Midlands, CKLV, Soldier Salute, and the Scuffle barely anyone is attending the finals much less the wrestlebacks.  It isn't hurting TV deals or ticket sales.  Dual meets are the better product.

The real problem are people dodging matches in dual meets or forfeiting out of the front side of tournaments.  In the past few years we've seen guys forfiet out of Big Ten finals or get to the semi finals. That shit hurts the product.  It's almost like the wrestlers and team don't care about the conference/team title.  

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

 As a side note, most of the sports you mentioned are pro team sports...and really, I don't care what other sports do. Wrestling is an individual, amateur sport that has uniquely been  this way for a long time. 

Your side note doesn't really matter.  Substitute MLS Playoffs with NCAA soccer or Stanley Cup with Frozen Four and it's the same thing.  Name another individual college sport that has an individual tournament format where after an individual is eliminated from national title contention they still compete to determine lower places?

I think wrestlers by and large do like the ability to come back and place.  Wrestlers that lose before the Semis don't really forfeit out because their feelings are hurt.  They want that AA spot.  By the last day some don't care about 1 placement spot or so, aren't on a team in the team race, and are nursing injuries.  What is the point in trying to make them wrestle? 

[Mr. PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Optics make it look like he was embarassed to be seen in public. So, rather than appear matside or openly with the team and announde the Medical Forfeits - it Looks Like he ran and hid.

Even if he did not wrestle with injury it looks like he did not handle the loss like Gable and Karelin. Both beaten while riding high, both stood and congratulated the winner - in public.

Running and hiding does not solve anything. As we see it only sparked rumors and crazy theories. You win, you stand and be seen. You lose, you stand and be seen. In this case you stand and cheer on your team and do it publicly. Spencer did not do it.

Hope the injuries heal so he can come back on the International stage and find success, but more importantly learn to live with reality no matter positive or negative.

You're a little behind the times, bud. Spencer showed up to the podium and congratulated Ramos and Glory. Furthermore, it was well publicized that Spencer watched his teammates compete Saturday morning. 

[AgaveMaria]

42 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

You're a little behind the times, bud. Spencer showed up to the podium and congratulated Ramos and Glory. Furthermore, it was well publicized that Spencer watched his teammates compete Saturday morning. 

Am aware of it. He did it as if he did not want to be seen - that is how it appears. Chael's take has validity.

Just can't see Gable handling it like that. But - very different personalities.

We'll see how he does moving forward.

[BAC]

Personally, I think Spencer was just plain too distraught to get it together in time.

Quint's comment in the ESPN broadcast in response to Iowa's press release was revealing.  He said that he happened to be in the back area later that evening for another reason, and saw Spencer -- and described him, without going into uncomfortable detail, as the most distraught he had ever seen a wrestler after a match at NCAAs.  Ever.

Its really the only explanation.  If it were an injury, he'd still be there cheering on his teammates right away, not just mid-day. Spencer has too much leadership to not be there rooting for his teammates if he can.  Too much class to not congratulate the victor.   Too much sense of duty to not wrestle back for third if he can.  Too much of a tough guy to not wrestle back if he can. He just couldn't pull himself together.

The Iowa press release was damage control, not the calculated decision that Chael assumes.  They had to say something to keep the wolves at bay, but didn't want to say the truth, so they fed this line about recovery being a "long road" -- enough for readers to infer injury, but vague enough to avoid being later called a lie.

But I'm not inclined to blame Spencer for not wrestling back, because I really think it was beyond his control. As I said above, I'm confident that if he weren't in such a hyper distressed state, that he'd have been able to do all those things that he ordinarily would.  He always has.  He just couldn't.

The interesting question is -- why was he so distraught that he couldn't recover like everyone else who suffered heartbreaking defeats?  Personally, I think it is because he started believing the hype, instead of being the intensely self-critical guy whose self-disapproval made him constantly improve and become who he is.  The GOAT podcast stuff, Brands saying he's the best wrestler of all time, the separate training, the sponsorships, the separate Iowa web page, all of it unmoored him from what makes him great, made him believe for a moment he really was invincible, and he couldn't regain his footing when he lost like that.

Again, this is all just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  Maybe some doctor will say he shredded his ACL in the 1st match and wouldn't clear him for Saturday.  But for now, I think Spencer started believing too many things about himself that weren't compatible with losing -- so when he did lose, he was shattered. 

Really hope he is OK and can find peace.  Love watching him and hope to see on the mat for the US Open.

Edited March 21, 2023 by BAC

[Idaho]

3 hours ago, dragit said:

Respectfully disagree.  

My guess is they know pretty well if not exactly what the injury is.  One can infer from watching him that one or both of the knees were reinjured.  Furthermore one would assume that he saw a doctor before not weighing in Saturday and often the doctor can diagnose.

Even if that weren't the case, they could easily say, Spencer is not going to wrestle Saturday.  He has a knee (or whatever body part) injury that is too painful to wrestle/could get much worse if he wrestles.  He's going to get more tests, evaluatethe situation, and make some decisions. That's not hard. Then we have the basics and people aren't left to speculate why a guy who wrestled Friday night and walked off the mat under his own power didn't compete in an ongoing tournament.

To not at least do that is way way outside the mainstream of sports when there is a sold out arena and wall to wall ESPN coverage.  It's pretty basic.

It's even more of an issue when the athlete is making real money on NIL deals.

This has happened before.  Marinelli got upset as a top seed and then MFF'd with no explanation.  Brands gave a cryptic statement which was so bizarre and evasive that it created the inference that he did not have an injury that precluded wrestling.  Which I'm guessing from the few data points we have, including much later statements from Marinelli, was wrong as he had a serious rib injury.  But, again, he finished his match and walked off under his own power.  They should have just said, he's got a rib injury and on medical advice won't wrestle. 

Geez i was originally worked up about Cael and now I'm just mad at everybody.  Where is the board's curmudgeon prize and why isn't it attached to my screen name?

Sure, they are going to get a  Doctor diagnosis at the arena the same night and then make sure all the fans know and announce it on ESPN ...  but anyway,  Spencer Lee does not owe anyone  information about his injury. Obviously Lee and Iowa don't care about the speculation going on, so you may want to get over your anger about someone else not announcing their own injury. We will probably find out somewhere down the road. 

 

 

[scourge165]

On 3/19/2023 at 3:40 PM, LJB said:

i will preface this by saying i hate even attempting a legitimate response to even one of OP's poo topics...

but...

i have been around chael in his public persona and i have been around chael when he is hanging with his boys...

chael is an absolute sweetheart of a guy and i send vids of him to my kids who never want to have a real job in their lives...

 

I don't understand what that has to do with this topic...other than for you to find a way to say you know Chael.

[dragit]

8 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Sure, they are going to get a  Doctor diagnosis at the arena the same night and then make sure all the fans know and announce it on ESPN ...  but anyway,  Spencer Lee does not owe anyone  information about his injury. Obviously Lee and Iowa don't care about the speculation going on, so you may want to get over your anger about someone else not announcing their own injury. We will probably find out somewhere down the road. 

 

 

Yes I meant that literally.  I'm truly angry about it, more than about fentanyl deaths and street crime and having to board another flight for another business trip.  

I won't bother with a detailed rebuttal. I clearly covered the irrelevant point about a specific diagnosis in detail.  

Sports fans devote many hours and lots of money to their passion.  When an athlete and coaches benefit from that, there is an implicit understanding that if the athlete chooses not to participate in competition that is generating that interest, and particularly if there is no competitive disadvantage to doing so (which there isn't when the athlete does not finish the last event of the season), you give actual information, which can be and is routinely done in the absence of a full diagnosis and treatment plan.  He hurt his knee.  The pain and/or the risk of worsening it is the reason why he isn't particpating with all of the other wrestlers who are competing for spots on the podium.   He'll get more tests and figure out how to move on. 

I deplored the Chael video but it's filling a vacuum that every coach and athlete understands will develop -- it's not like Brands and Lee don't know the basics of media relations, publicity is a big part of what they seek and do on a regular basis (which isn't a criticism, to the contrary it's great for fans and fuels their aforementioned investment of time and money).   

[Mr. PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Am aware of it. He did it as if he did not want to be seen - that is how it appears. Chael's take has validity.

Just can't see Gable handling it like that. But - very different personalities.

We'll see how he does moving forward.

What are you talking about? He showed up to the parade of all-americans, showed up to the podium (on time), had his picture taken, and congratulated the 2 finalists - all very publicly. What about that gives you the impression that he did it as if he didn't want to be seen? 

[scourge165]

On 3/19/2023 at 3:18 PM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

 

This was kinda ridiculous. Not as bad as the first time I listened and I thought he was saying he was limping so bad the refs had to ask if he could wrestle...but it's almost more ridiculous he wants to make this a big PR thing and MAKE that the narrative. Lee was fine. Maybe he had a little injury, but it's not as bad as he's been. 

I should ask first, was he actually "favored" to win the Olympics in '20...which ended up being '21 and coming up? Who picks the favorites? I didn't think he was likely to go straight from College to HS and immediately dominate. He's great because of how good he is on top. You don't get nearly as much time to turn people in Freestyle. Clearly he'd have been a contender, but the Olympic favorite and #1 in the Olympic rankings? I don't know he's wrong there, but that feels wrong.

Now, ESPN paid for this and a big part of this was Spencer Lee? LOL...did they? Was it really? Did they pay one penny more for Spencer Lee this year than last year when he wasn't Wrestling? They've had the rights for how long now? They made him the main event? That's silly.

Second, he just compared this to LeBron James, right? I like Basketball...I know this isn't allowed for a Wrestler, but I'm still a big fan. You hear of "Load Management?" The best teams will routinely sit their stars for random games for no reason other than they dont' want them to get hurt.  

That people don't Wrestleback has absolutely NOTHING to do with why Wrestling isn't mainstream. It's also not an issue the NCAA has...meaning the D1s. It's rare and it's usually when someone has a legitimate injury. If he was talking about the Conference Tournaments, more legit. Not clue about Oregon state tourney, but it's not an issue at most state tournaments. 

 

Maybe he's on to something with regard to the MFFs on the backside. I think it's a bad idea and that most guys at the D1s compete out of respect and...because it's important. So as I said, rare. Mekhi Lewis in '21 rare. A legit injury. And what type of injuries are we punishing? Concussions? Would those be exempt? How about if you get injured while wrestling then? I doubt that's going to go over well.

In Conference, you should probably count it as a loss so it impacts seeding, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

Finally, REPEATEDLY calling him a "little boy" is...ridiculous. I think he's 24 years old. Maybe even 25. He was a boy in 2015. He's a grown man now. 

[scourge165]

On 3/19/2023 at 7:00 PM, dragit said:

Thank you thank you thank you for this.  After five minutes I was alternating between laughing at how ridiculous it was, and not being able to take it anymore.  

It was so bad on so many levels that it's not worth unpacking them all.  Suffice it to say that the factual errors you mention were just the tip of the iceberg - the real outrage was the absurd judgments and comparisons he made and the oversimplifications of an extraordinarily complex situation involving a human being who put his heart into the choices he made which didn't work out well this week.  One hopes that he has better luck going forward, on the mat if the knees haven't made that impossible, and off the mat where his substantial drive and intelligence will present many opportunities.

Ok, should have read through all the posts. 

Seems like my issues were all addressed. I like Chael, his fight commentary is good...or at least it seems like it for someone who's not a huge MMA fan and doesn't follow all the details, but this was just such...nonsense. 

He is right about the regrets. No matter what, you've got 'em. Win 1, you should have won a 2nd. Short of that, I don't think there's anything else I agreed with in there. 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Sure, they are going to get a  Doctor diagnosis at the arena the same night and then make sure all the fans know and announce it on ESPN ...  but anyway,  Spencer Lee does not owe anyone  information about his injury. Obviously Lee and Iowa don't care about the speculation going on, so you may want to get over your anger about someone else not announcing their own injury. We will probably find out somewhere down the road. 

 

 

C'mon...you know EXACTLY what he's saying. 

Watch some of the Basketball being played. I just watched a game, player left, sideline reporter said it was a thumb injury. That doesn't require an MRI to determine if there were torn ligaments or a broken thumb, it was a general injury.

Or, any other sport. "Marvin Harrison Jr injured his left leg, he's going to try to give it a go in the 2nd half," or "he's doubtful to return," whatever.

It doesn't require a full medical diagnosis as he said. Finding out down the road when there aren't millions(potentially) or people talking about it/watching it...is NOT the same. It was a trending topic on Twitter(both the loss and the MFF Saturday Morning). 

[dragit]

2 hours ago, BAC said:

Personally, I think Spencer was just plain too distraught to get it together in time.

Quint's comment in the ESPN broadcast in response to Iowa's press release was revealing.  He said that he happened to be in the back area later that evening for another reason, and saw Spencer -- and described him, without going into uncomfortable detail, as the most distraught he had ever seen a wrestler after a match at NCAAs.  Ever.

Its really the only explanation.  If it were an injury, he'd still be there cheering on his teammates right away, not just mid-day. Spencer has too much leadership to not be there rooting for his teammates if he can.  Too much class to not congratulate the victor.   Too much sense of duty to not wrestle back for third if he can.  Too much of a tough guy to not wrestle back if he can. He just couldn't pull himself together.

The Iowa press release was damage control, not the calculated decision that Chael assumes.  They had to say something to keep the wolves at bay, but didn't want to say the truth, so they fed this line about recovery being a "long road" -- enough for readers to infer injury, but vague enough to avoid being later called a lie.

But I'm not inclined to blame Spencer for not wrestling back, because I really think it was beyond his control. As I said above, I'm confident that if he weren't in such a hyper distressed state, that he'd have been able to do all those things that he ordinarily would.  He always has.  He just couldn't.

The interesting question is -- why was he so distraught that he couldn't recover like everyone else who suffered heartbreaking defeats?  Personally, I think it is because he started believing the hype, instead of being the intensely self-critical guy whose self-disapproval made him constantly improve and become who he is.  The GOAT podcast stuff, Brands saying he's the best wrestler of all time, the separate training, the sponsorships, the separate Iowa web page, all of it unmoored him from what makes him great, made him believe for a moment he really was invincible, and he couldn't regain his footing when he lost like that.

Again, this is all just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  Maybe some doctor will say he shredded his ACL in the 1st match and wouldn't clear him for Saturday.  But for now, I think Spencer started believing too many things about himself that weren't compatible with losing -- so when he did lose, he was shattered. 

Really hope he is OK and can find peace.  Love watching him and hope to see on the mat for the US Open.

This is a thoughtful post, the speculation is done in good faith and spirit and grounded in a first hand account from a reporter.  

I tend to think two things can be true at once.  He's got a significant injury and was unspeakably disraught.  I think the reason for the latter is that after SIX YEARS of knee tears it all got to him and kept him from wrestling how he did in those brief windows he's been healthy. And I think he'd started hitting his stride this year and probably popped something again.

Your post made me focus more on the parallels to Gable.  Only two guys can really understand this.  The coronation that didn't happen.  I think of that cringey video where they give Gable the banner and say that the last space is for the last title.  In Spencer's case maybe even worse given the Brands comments and his own GOAT show.

And this happened to Spencer TWICE!!!

Folks that's why they actually play the games.

[LJB]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I don't understand what that has to do with this topic...other than for you to find a way to say you know Chael.

maybe if you make it past adolescence you will begin to understand a little more...

because what the rest of you took out of the vid is not what i took out of that vid...

clearly, we all are coming from different perspectives and different levels in this sport and competition in general...

what seems like a big deal to some does not to others...

 

regardless...

 

i am still pulling for you, sparky...

 

 

[LJB]

listened to this again just because...

 

yep...

 

still the point he was trying to make has been lost on this crowd...

 

i should not be that surprised...

 

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, LJB said:

maybe if you make it past adolescence you will begin to understand a little more...

because what the rest of you took out of the vid is not what i took out of that vid...

clearly, we all are coming from different perspectives and different levels in this sport and competition in general...

what seems like a big deal to some does not to others...

 

regardless...

 

i am still pulling for you, sparky...

 

 

LOL...cool! I probably should remember having never wrestled, you might be in awe being around someone who's well known for Wrestling. That actually IS a good point.

Beyond that, I guess yes, once I make it past adolescence, I'll understand why someone actually had to point out that Chael's personna when promoting a fight is NOT actually who he is!

Next you'll tell me he actually DID lose in the UFC and the whole "Undefeated, never lost a round," schtick is part of that persona!

Here's the thing LBJ...I understand why HE'S got a schtick. It made a guy who didn't have the greatest UFC career--very good, not an all-time great--one of the BIGGEST stars in the sport.

What I DON'T get is your little schtick? You gonna parlay this into a super successful podcast or some type of endorsement deal through intermat? 

 

Yeah, yeah, you're still rooting for me. I got it!

Edited March 21, 2023 by scourge165